Per MJ

[Snakester]

I don't think 3.5mil is too much for Big Dan. If that's all he is asking for then pay the man and sign him to five years

 

[Dr. Jones]

This is the same team that paid Stewart Bradley 20+mill .......... and they balk at paying Dan 3mill.

Sorry, I just hadn't had a good Stewart Bradley rip in a couple years. I feel much better now .

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Just because I can......

 

[Bodha]

How is 3.5 too much for Dan? We practically gave Ginn that much, and he was a never-time player, and when he was on the field, he was doing his best to pin us within the 5.



Dan is very very important to our D. When gauging his Market Value, consider you dont have to teach someone new the defense, or create new chemistry between Dan and CC/DD(whoever)

If Dan is a couple bucks above 'market value' so be it. We are buying a need off our hands with a heck of a good player. Cap is going up anyways

dont create problems. Just pay the man

 

[Dr. Jones]

Losing Dan would be as stupid as when Sarver lost Joe Johnson for 5 mill over 5 years.

Get this crap done already!

 

[overseascardfan]

Shelton is a top 15 pick,how do u see him dropping in the 3th round?

There is 0% chance of Shelton dropping to 3rd.
Collins is a lot notches below Peters, he's just all measurables with poor coverage skills.
I highly doubt we go NOT drafting a ILB at all.

I'll concede Shelton won't make it to Round 3 but I say Mills in Round 2 because I think Peters won't be there when ARZ is on the clock in Round 2. As for drafting an ILB, it depends on if ARZ signs more than 1 ILB in FA.

 

[Stout]

People should remember that our Nose Tackles before Williams came here were Gabe Watson, Alan Branch and Bryan Robinson. If NTs are so easy to find, this team has not historically done a good job of identifying them.

Yep. I'm fully with K9 on this one.

 

[WildBB]

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Just because I can......

The idiocy of that struting was that it was in a pre-season game, IIRC.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Somebody mentioned that maybe there is more to Keim's reasoning for balking at 3.5 mill and something is going on that we may not know about. There could be some credence to that because it's not like Williams is asking for 5+mill/year or Wilfork money.

People are using play % as a knock on Williams's value, and I think we've established NT's play % is generally limited, then why is a guy like Danny Shelton being projected as a top 10 pick? He's a NT. Why would any NT be considered in round 1? It's because they have value and good ones aren't that easy to find.

I still think Williams ends up in Arizona unless somebody offers him something outlandish.

 

[Dr. Jones]

The idiocy of that struting was that it was in a pre-season game, IIRC.

Hall of Fame game no less. First game of the entire preseason.

Classic.

 

[Chopper0080]

Somebody mentioned that maybe there is more to Keim's reasoning for balking at 3.5 mill and something is going on that we may not know about. There could be some credence to that because it's not like Williams is asking for 5+mill/year or Wilfork money.

People are using play % as a knock on Williams's value, and I think we've established NT's play % is generally limited, then why is a guy like Danny Shelton being projected as a top 10 pick? He's a NT. Why would any NT be considered in round 1? It's because they have value and good ones aren't that easy to find.

I still think Williams ends up in Arizona unless somebody offers him something outlandish.

Shelton played like 90% of defensive snaps for Washington in a Pac 12 conference that never huddled. He will play base NT, and then DE ala Vince Wilfork. Shelton brings significantly more skills and athleticism than Dan Williams.

 

[juza76]

Shelton played like 90% of defensive snaps for Washington in a Pac 12 conference that never huddled. He will play base NT, and then DE ala Vince Wilfork. Shelton brings significantly more skills and athleticism than Dan Williams.

i think he is high on cardinals draft board and malcom brown too,but we dont have any chance to get one of them

 

[kerouac9]

Shelton played like 90% of defensive snaps for Washington in a Pac 12 conference that never huddled. He will play base NT, and then DE ala Vince Wilfork. Shelton brings significantly more skills and athleticism than Dan Williams.

Let's say this first: Vince Wilfork is a better player than Dan Williams. I don't know how often he plays DE for the Pats, but I'd guess it's not often. What he will do is play DT in a 4-3 alignment, which they've increasingly done more of to take advantage of the flexibility their OLBs provide.

Wilfork is making over $8M in 2015 in real dollars--not cap dollars.

I think that Shelton compares more to Marcel Dareus who can play NT but offers a ton of flexibility across different formations. I admit that Williams doesn't present that kind of flexibility. I agree with much of the board that the team's better in passing situations when they can sub in two of Dockett/Stinton/Rucker/Kelly.

But Williams can do things on first and second down that those guys can't do, and allows the DEs to be more aggressive in a three-down alignment.

I think that it's incredibly unfair to pass vague aspersions on Williams's health or character with only the most tangential basis (being the disparity between what he's asking and what the Cards are offering right now). I think that the more likely reason is just a dedication of resources issue. The Cards have a big contract on the DL already in Campbell. THey have a big one in the linebacking corps with Washington. They have one in the secondary with Peterson.

It may not make sense from a resources perspective to add another Top 10 contract to the defense in Williams when Dockett is still on the books (and his deal doesn't become guaranteed until Week 1, so that renegotiation could go on and on for a while). Just a guess.

And I'm not going to howl if we let Williams leave in the way that I did when we let Dansby and Rolle walk for nothing. This front office has earned some patience and faith at this point. I'll be disappointed, and I'll probably post a list of the players from the last 4 or 5 drafts who are no longer with the team or are non-entities (thanks, Kevin Minter!). But I'll wait and see how it works out.

It seems to me, right now, that Williams's objective value is going to be more than his current asking price. I won't be surprised to see him get a $20M contract with $10M guaranteed in the first few days of free agency.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Shelton played like 90% of defensive snaps for Washington in a Pac 12 conference that never huddled. He will play base NT, and then DE ala Vince Wilfork. Shelton brings significantly more skills and athleticism than Dan Williams.

My point was that NT's have value. I just used Shelton as the current example. I'm sure Williams played a high % of snaps his last year at Tennessee as well.

 

[Chopper0080]

Let's say this first: Vince Wilfork is a better player than Dan Williams. I don't know how often he plays DE for the Pats, but I'd guess it's not often. What he will do is play DT in a 4-3 alignment, which they've increasingly done more of to take advantage of the flexibility their OLBs provide.

Wilfork is making over $8M in 2015 in real dollars--not cap dollars.

I think that Shelton compares more to Marcel Dareus who can play NT but offers a ton of flexibility across different formations. I admit that Williams doesn't present that kind of flexibility. I agree with much of the board that the team's better in passing situations when they can sub in two of Dockett/Stinton/Rucker/Kelly.

But Williams can do things on first and second down that those guys can't do, and allows the DEs to be more aggressive in a three-down alignment.

I think that it's incredibly unfair to pass vague aspersions on Williams's health or character with only the most tangential basis (being the disparity between what he's asking and what the Cards are offering right now). I think that the more likely reason is just a dedication of resources issue. The Cards have a big contract on the DL already in Campbell. THey have a big one in the linebacking corps with Washington. They have one in the secondary with Peterson.

It may not make sense from a resources perspective to add another Top 10 contract to the defense in Williams when Dockett is still on the books (and his deal doesn't become guaranteed until Week 1, so that renegotiation could go on and on for a while). Just a guess.

And I'm not going to howl if we let Williams leave in the way that I did when we let Dansby and Rolle walk for nothing. This front office has earned some patience and faith at this point. I'll be disappointed, and I'll probably post a list of the players from the last 4 or 5 drafts who are no longer with the team or are non-entities (thanks, Kevin Minter!). But I'll wait and see how it works out.

It seems to me, right now, that Williams's objective value is going to be more than his current asking price. I won't be surprised to see him get a $20M contract with $10M guaranteed in the first few days of free agency.

The Shelton / Wilfork comp is more to the level of versatility that they bring more than anything specific. They both offer multiple options.

Re: Williams, I disagree with you about the potential market, but you may very well be correct. I looked into those metrics at Football Outsiders, and it was interesting. I just look at that role, and devalue it for some reason. Maybe I put too much emphasis on 3rd down, or having the athleticism to chase down Kaep and Wilson in our division. For some reason, and historically we haven't, I am confident in our ability to find a Kelly Gregg type player at half or a third of the cost of Williams. That being said, it won't break my heart if they cave and pay him $3.5 mil.

Re: his attitude / character...it is speculation, but to your words, this staff has earned some credibility with me, and I just don't believe they would balk at paying him if they felt he was a key piece. As you have said, this team has expressed a desire to stop the run, and I don't see why they would diminish their ability to do that over a 3.5 million dollar contract.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

i think he is high on cardinals draft board and malcom brown too,but we dont have any chance to get one of them

This is where I have a problem. It's the "one step forward, two steps back" approach. Why would we let Dan Williams go and create a void only to go and have to use a high round pick on a replacement. I would rather sign Williams, who we know is a good player and fill another hole with the 1st round pick (i.e. LB, CB, etc...)

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I am on the fence with Dan Williams.

His role on the Cardinals seems to be less of one in comparison to other well paid NT's (for lack of a better term) in the NFL.

I would say this is partly because it makes more sense to put Calais Campbell and Dockett out in 4-3 alignments, and passing situations thus Williams doesn't get the snaps/numbers other Nose Tackles make/get.

That is just my two cents. The numerous breakdowns in this thread list out all the points for both side VERY well.

The Cardinals may find themselves with a problem at nose tackle if they get too cute, IMO.

Dan Williams has shown that he can do the basics that are required to play nose tackle in the NFL at a high level. His athleticism and pass rush ability are special, and why he can command a high salary.

Yet, do the Cardinals needs those extra skills at the nose tackle position ? There is no doubt the Cardinals enjoyed those extra talents when Williams was on his rookie contract, but you cannot pay everyone top dollar thus it is an issue of if Dan Williams is "over qualified" for what the Cardinals need at nose tackle ?

And, if not Dan Williams, then who ?

I like Kendrick Ellis who the Jets may allow to be a free agent. There is a chance that the Jets may sign Dan Williams, and the Cardinals sign Kendrick Ellis. LOL

 

[BigRedRage]

you guys have much larger attention spans than I do. This conversation got old to me like 5 pages ago

 

[MadCardDisease]

But Williams can do things on first and second down that those guys can't do, and allows the DEs to be more aggressive in a three-down alignment.

I agree 100%.

If Williams only comes in on 1st and 2nd down. But on those downs the Cardinals stuff the run and the opponents offense is perpetually in 2nd and 8 or 9 or third and 6 or 7. Then you've basically cut the opponents offensive plays by at least half and forced them into an obvious passing situations on 2nd or 3rd down.

If Williams did his job then it makes sense to take him off the field and put your pass rush specialists out there. That is not a knock on Dan.

 

[Jetstream Green]

you guys have much larger attention spans than I do. This conversation got old to me like 5 pages ago

The board is getting old at the moment too... since the draft is still like a thousand days away, but people are draft troopers on here every day lol

 

[Matt L]

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Just because I can......

Here's my defense of the Stewart Bradley pre-season sack strut:

He was all jacked up and started to do a dance and then realized that it was the preseason and he looks like an idiot, so mid strut he decides to act like it was a joke and that is how he came up with a weird pose. I really wonder what Stew Bradley is doing now...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Has anyone considered that Williams low snap count has something to do with teams constantly in 2nd and 3rd and long situations because of good run D early? Some credit has to be given to him for that.

Dan had his best season last year and shouldn't break the bank. Make the deal.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

This is where I have a problem. It's the "one step forward, two steps back" approach. Why would we let Dan Williams go and create a void only to go and have to use a high round pick on a replacement. I would rather sign Williams, who we know is a good player and fill another hole with the 1st round pick (i.e. LB, CB, etc...)

Also known as The Rod Graves approach. As Duckjake used to say, we let Leonard Davis to draft Leonard Davis(Levi).

 

[Jetstream Green]

Has anyone considered that Williams low snap count has something to do with teams constantly in 2nd and 3rd and long situations because of good run D early? Some credit has to be given to him for that.

Dan had his best season last year and shouldn't break the bank. Make the deal.

I have stated that too

 

[Catfish]

K-9, like you I don't know what the thinking of the Front Office is concerning Williams at this point, BUT I am very happy to hear you say that they have earned some patience and faith at this point. I agree with that, and believe that they have a plan and a backup plan.

 

[juza76]

Has anyone considered that Williams low snap count has something to do with teams constantly in 2nd and 3rd and long situations because of good run D early? Some credit has to be given to him for that.

Dan had his best season last year and shouldn't break the bank. Make the deal.

A complete nose tackle has also pass rushing skiLls so he can play on third and long