PHO/BOS proposal

[dodie53]

i think PP can postup bowen because PP is stronger..

 

[Mainstreet]

Their two best players? They aint worth half of Amare. The problem I have with Eric's proposal here is that the resulting roster has no chance to win anything. Can Jeffery either defend or score against Duncan well? Pierce gives us a strong scorer, but if Kobe can't really overcome Bowen's defense, can Paul? I can't really imagine any trade scenario involving Amare that'd give us a better chance with what we have yet the approach modified to optimally utilize the talents of Amare and Diaw.

Also, I think Diaw is still quite valuable despite the season he had.

I would definitely consider Gasol and the #4 pick for Amare if it works. However, doesn't Gasol have a large salary as well? Anyway, if the Suns used the #4 pick for another big man (plus Gasol) the Suns would have a nice front court. All they would have to do is shore up the backcourt.

 

[mr_sunshine]

I would definitely consider Gasol and the #4 pick for Amare if it works. However, doesn't Gasol have a large salary as well? Anyway, if the Suns used the #4 pick for another big man (plus Gasol) the Suns would have a nice front court. All they would have to do is shore up the backcourt.

That would be awesome for Phoenix, but I think Memphis can get more for Gasol without giving up their pick to be honest.

 

[Covert Rain]

Phoenix gets
Paul Pierce ($16.4 million in 2007-08, expires 2011)
Al Jefferson (2.5, RFA 2008)
Theo Ratliff (11.7, 2008)

Boston gets
Amare Stoudemire (13.3, 2011)
Boris Diaw (9.0, 2012)
Kurt Thomas (8.1, 2008)
#29 pick

Why Phoenix does it:
They get a first-option scorer who can create his own shot, an appealing low-post prospect, and the opportunity to clear out Diaw's salary. They'd probably have to start Jefferson at center, but hey, this is the Suns, they don't care. If Ratliff sits the entire season, he might get healthy enough to play a few playoff games before hurting himself again.

Why Boston does it:
They get an All-NBA big man for the disaffected Pierce and add two additional pieces (Diaw and the #29 pick) to their developing young core.

Ditto on this one too. One of the dumbest trades suggested to date.

 

[cly2tw]

I would definitely consider Gasol and the #4 pick for Amare if it works. However, doesn't Gasol have a large salary as well? Anyway, if the Suns used the #4 pick for another big man (plus Gasol) the Suns would have a nice front court. All they would have to do is shore up the backcourt.

As of today, I agree that Gasol +#4 pick for Amare might make the Suns better. But Amare's upside is enormous. He never started to work on his lowpost moves yet, as Suns didn't let him because Nash handling the ball made everyone around him "better". But in an environment he could practise those skills, we see from Dirk and JoeJohnson how they could blossom after leaving the care of Nash! And imagine how Amare would blossom and make the Suns pay for trading him away!

 

[Forrestham]

As of today, I agree that Gasol +#4 pick for Amare might make the Suns better. But Amare's upside is enormous. He never started to work on his lowpost moves yet, as Suns didn't let him because Nash handling the ball made everyone around him "better". But in an environment he could practise those skills, we see from Dirk and JoeJohnson how they could blossom after leaving the care of Nash! And imagine how Amare would blossom and make the Suns pay for trading him away!

This is a silly comment. Johnson is the number 1 option and his team has been in the lottery teh last 2 years. Dallas was bounced out in the 1st round by a 500 team. I thinnk if Nash was still with Dirk the would have beaten the warriors

 

[sharkman]

If you are going to propose a trade, why give up the guys that actually work? The following are the stats gainst San Antonio:

Amare: A beast with .500% from the field, .813% from the line, 10.6 reb per game, 2 blocks per game and 26.4 ppg.

Nash: .520% from 3 pt range, 12.7 assists, 21.3 ppg.

Marion: .521% from the field, .471% from 3 pt range, 10.5 rpg, 2.33 bpg, and 15.7 ppg.

KT: As good a defense on Duncan as can be hoped for, .923% from FT line, 6.3 rpg, 1.17 bpg, and 9.7 ppg.

Raja: .500% from the field, .500% from the arc, .900% from the line, 12.5 ppg.

These guys are keepers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Barbosa: 2-17 from 3 point range, .118% (after .400%+ during the season), .667% from the line for 11.3 ppg (7 below his average).

Diaw: .571% from the FT line, 3.2 rpg, and 5.6 ppg...not the stuff $9mil deals are for.

JJ: .333% from 3 point range, 3.3 ppg.

Burke: 0 ppg.

These are the guys who need to be upgraded. If Barbosa even has his average night, we win games 1 and 5. Period. Yes the suspensions hurt, but we should beat the Spurs. This time next year Barry is 37, Ginobili is 31, Duncan 32, Bowen 37, Horry 38, Oberto 33, Vaughn 33 and Finley 35...we should have run these guys out of the building with offense.

1-5 played good enough to win...our 6-8 didn't.

1. The coaches are still high on Diaw's potential to create matchup problems. I think he lacks fire and can't coexist with Amare. His $9mil limits trade opportunities...but if Iavaroni goes to Memphis...
Diaw + Piatkowski + Banks + JJ + #24 + #29 + #59 for
Stromile Swift + Mike Miller....guys who have been on the block for the past few years. Heck...even 2008 #1 (we'd still have Atlanta's pick)...how much is a late round pick going to help the Suns this year or next?

Iavaroni would have #4, #24, #29, #59 to re-make the team in his style...Diaw as the versatile playmaker...Piatkowski is an expiring contract to make the numbers work. Memphis is under the cap and can absorb Diaw's BYC.
Phoenix makes another title run with KT's contract ending at the end of the year for salary relief after the run....

Nash
Raja
Marion
Swift (speed, length and blocked shots)
Amare
Barbosa (hoping that his lack of productivity was due to nerves and/or injury)
Mike Miller (replaces Diaw's 5.6 ppg with 18+ ppg)
KT
Off the bench...better production than this year's team...with $4mil off the books...and KT's expiring contract off next year...UFA's to fill out the roster.

On this team I think Miller and Swift could thrive...and are a better fit than Diaw and late picks which will take a couple of years before they're ready to contribute.

(Sorry this is on the Boston-Phoenix thread but others mentioned Memphis earlier)

 

[cly2tw]

This is a silly comment. Johnson is the number 1 option and his team has been in the lottery teh last 2 years. Dallas was bounced out in the 1st round by a 500 team. I thinnk if Nash was still with Dirk the would have beaten the warriors

Let me put it this way, if both Dirk and Joe were with Nash all the time without having to carry their own team for the past years, they'd be lesser players than they are now.

Nash make the job for everyone around him much much easier, consequently they don't need to do too much, and they don't have chances to, for the team to be successful. In a word, if you are a player with a lot of upside, then your progress can easily be stifled by playing with Nash. On the other hand, your stats might look better than ever which make you a "better" player on stats. That's the dilemma. And for lesser talent like Bell, they'd equally produce great stats on Nash led team.

 

[elindholm]

If you are going to propose a trade, why give up the guys that actually work?

Because you have to give up quality to get quality.

Diaw + Piatkowski + Banks + JJ + #24 + #29 + #59 for
Stromile Swift + Mike Miller

If Swift could be a rotation player on a good team, he would have shown it by now. I like Miller, but that price is too high. (Did you check whether it works under Diaw's BYC status?)

 

[HooverDam]

That's an interesting and reasonable proposal. I'm not sure the Celtics would bite on trading Jefferson given his potential, but at the very least it's intriguing for both teams.

No its not, the Suns are trading an All NBA First Team player and super star for years to come for some borderline All Star players and junk. No thanks to this trade or the Memphis trade, both are ridiculous.

 

[mr_sunshine]

I really think Barbosa's lack of offense was because of his injury. A guy who wins 6th man of the year wouldn't disappear like that without a reason. Barbosa always plays with a lot of energy and heart, and I really think he will bounce back if all goes well with his surgery.

 

[sharkman]

Because you have to give up quality to get quality.

We don't need a massive upgrade in quality...just spare parts that fit our system a little better than the parts we have. Miller could be had...and he's a guy who can score 18-25 when he has to...Diaw can't.

If Swift could be a rotation player on a good team, he would have shown it by now.

He's a 6'9" 235 player who runs like the wind and blocks shots. He's not a good fit on every team...especially half court teams like Houston. On the Suns, he'd be a better version of Hunter...with better FT %. Yes Hunter wasn't dominating...but he did block some shots, and made some nice dunks...Phoenix wanted to keep him if the price was right....he was just so much of a liability on offense because he couldn't hit his free throws. Swift would definitely help stop uncontested layups with his shot blocking and speed.

I like Miller, but that price is too high. (Did you check whether it works under Diaw's BYC status?)

It works, because Memphis is under the cap...the total salaries received by Phoenix fit the 25% rule too.

Our options are:

1. Make massive changes...not wise with a team so close.
2. Use the draft picks to improve...but late picks won't be ready in time to help...Barbosa is in his 4th year and he's just now coming into his own...JJ has had a few years too...as has Diaw. Swift and Miller would be upgrades immediately.
3. Make some subtle changes to upgrade...stay healthy...don't get suspended...and make another run.

 

[sharkman]

I really think Barbosa's lack of offense was because of his injury. A guy who wins 6th man of the year wouldn't disappear like that without a reason. Barbosa always plays with a lot of energy and heart, and I really think he will bounce back if all goes well with his surgery.

That...and he really has confidence issues...partly due to injury...part due to confidence...part due to Spurs defense...

...I think he gets better every year, which is why I'd like to keep him. Boris needs to go though. He could be dominating...but it seems he has the Sam Perkins lack of fire syndrome.

 

[azirish]

...I think he gets better every year, which is why I'd like to keep him. Boris needs to go though. He could be dominating...but it seems he has the Sam Perkins lack of fire syndrome.

Personality is a big deal for any player. Joe Johnson was pretty passive when he first came to the Suns and it took him a while to figure out what he could do. Remember the reason he did not get a big extension was due to some mediocre work prior to Nash coming her:

Joe Johnson:
01-02 7.5 ppg on 43.0% and 29.2% for three
02-03 9.8 ppg on 39.7% and 36.6% for three
03-04 16.7 ppg on 43.0% and 30.5% for three (in a year without Marbury and Stoudemire)

JJ got a lot of minutes, but the teams in that period weren't very good.

The reality is that the two years Boris spent in Atlanta might as well as have never happened.

If you forget about the money and just looked at Boris as a prospect, what you'd see for the last two years is not THAT bad:

2005-06 13.3 ppg on 52.6% shooting and 26.7% for three. 6.9 rpg and 6.2 apg

2006-07 9.7 ppg on 53.8% shooting and 33.3% for three. 4.3 rpg and 4.8 apg.

I remember a lot of people were down on JJ before the 2004-05 season. We have a tendency to get awfully impatient with guys who aren't progressing as fast as we'ld like without looking at the underlying talent. Statistically Boris has regressed, but that was expected. What is needed is for him to become more aggressive, but that was a problem for a quite a while with JJ too.

 

[sharkman]

I remember a lot of people were down on JJ before the 2004-05 season. We have a tendency to get awfully impatient with guys who aren't progressing as fast as we'ld like without looking at the underlying talent. Statistically Boris has regressed, but that was expected. What is needed is for him to become more aggressive, but that was a problem for a quite a while with JJ too.

The point is that for this team to win a championship, it HAS to be impatient. Nash simply doesn't have that many years left at a championship level. Draft picks are fine...

...but look at the high draft picks of recent years that still haven't turned into decent contributors: Thomas, Aldridge, Williams, etc. Diaw may indeed turn out to be a decent player...but Miller is already there. The Spurs are an "old" team that likely will win yet another title...
...the Suns window of opportunity is right now...and getting the "5th" or "7th" or "11th" pick next year isn't going to help....no matter what their potential...and neither will "blowing up the team" by trading Nash, Marion, or Stoudemire...

...if draft picks are what you are after, then we should have tanked this past year like the other lotto hopefuls... in a slim attempt attempt to get Oden.

We need to keep the core intact...make a few adjustments...and make another run at a title...cuz after this next year...the window may be shut.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Shark, I just want you to know that your posts on this topic have been great.

I was slumping in my hopes of what I thought the suns could do next season but you seem to have it down on what needs to be done.

If barbosa can at least do decent against the spurs next year, no crazy ridiculous suspensions happen, and diaws 31 minutes are instead going to someone cheaper and with decent numbers who more fits the teams need I think we could make another great run.

If we can part ways with banks and diaw, and say lose our 29th and first next year in the process and get a player like Mike Miller and a half-decent pass-oreinted backup pg OR decent backup PF/center for when KT gets in foul trouble we would be set.

The spurs literally use oberto and elson as foul machines in all their games during the season and against us, and still sometimes both of them AND duncan would be in foul trouble. Shows you how much you need those expendable bodies to D up and pick up fouls.

If those fouls weren't going on Amare, the sky would be the limit.

 

[NastyOne]

No its not, the Suns are trading an All NBA First Team player and super star for years to come for some borderline All Star players and junk. No thanks to this trade or the Memphis trade, both are ridiculous.

Exactly, And i don't get why anyone would even think that we have any chance in the playoffs without Amare.And don't anyone even bring up 2006 and the WCF cause we had a cupcake schedule and still almost got knocked out in the first round without him.

Short of KG, anyone we bring in here will be a downgrade when compared to a healthy Amare.And i'd rather have Amare in the playoffs than KG.

A healthy Amare is the most dominant offensive bigman in the NBA and hes only 24, and you guys are talking about trading him for perennial losers like Paul Pierce and Pau Gasol with a couple of throw-ins?

The only Amare trade that would keep me as a Suns fan better have Lebron James name in it.

And even then i'd still have my doubts about trading a guy that could lead the NBA in scoring if he played in a system where the offense ran through him.

We've waited too damn long for a Dominant bigman and now that we finally have one all you keep hearing are trades with him involved.

Amare is our only hope for a title if we want to win one anytime soon.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I really think Barbosa's lack of offense was because of his injury. A guy who wins 6th man of the year wouldn't disappear like that without a reason. Barbosa always plays with a lot of energy and heart, and I really think he will bounce back if all goes well with his surgery.

So Barbosa is untouchable and Amare is not?

 

[boisesuns]

I think it's a interesting situation with Amare. If you trade him now, you can get some value from him. If it's really is true that he may need another surgurey in a few years and then take 1-2 to recover, that's something to consider. If Amare starts wearing down, so does his trade value. If Amare goes down and needs another hole drilled in his knee, what will we do then?

I'm all for keeping Amare and his amazing talent has been a big part of our success this year. I still think we need a go to scorer who can get us big shots when the game is on the line. Nash has been the only one who's shown willingness to do that, that can actually back it up with his on the court performances.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think it's a interesting situation with Amare. If you trade him now, you can get some value from him. If it's really is true that he may need another surgurey in a few years and then take 1-2 to recover, that's something to consider. If Amare starts wearing down, so does his trade value. If Amare goes down and needs another hole drilled in his knee, what will we do then?

Actually I'm more worried about Amare opting out of his contract than his knee. I can see a big market team like the Lakers making a move on him. I'm not sure when Amare can opt out out of his contract but I heard 2008. If Rashard Lewis believes he can get the huge money, what does Amare think he can get... plus endorsements in a big market? Also it seems Amare and Kobe were much too friendly this season.

 

[elindholm]

We don't need a massive upgrade in quality...just spare parts that fit our system a little better than the parts we have. Miller could be had...and he's a guy who can score 18-25 when he has to...Diaw can't.

Sure, I think Miller would be great. I just don't think he's worth Diaw, Jones, and two picks.

He's a 6'9" 235 player who runs like the wind and blocks shots. He's not a good fit on every team

He hasn't been a good fit on any team. The Grizzlies have had at least three different "versions" during Swift's tenures with them, and he hasn't fit any of them.

Yes Hunter wasn't dominating...but he did block some shots, and made some nice dunks...Phoenix wanted to keep him if the price was right

I don't think that's true. Did the Suns even make Hunter an offer? (I can't remember.) What I do remember is that Hunter was the only player that laughter-and-sunshine D'Antoni would scream at during games, and he did it regularly. I think the coach hated him and was counting the days until he was gone.

Mentally, Swift is even worse than hunter.

It works, because Memphis is under the cap...the total salaries received by Phoenix fit the 25% rule too.

Okay, excellent.

3. Make some subtle changes to upgrade...stay healthy...don't get suspended...and make another run.

Whether that's viable depends on the chemistry. We don't know how bad it is, but there's an awful lot of rumbling.

Keep in mind that Nash, Marion, and Thomas will all be a year older next season. So the other current Suns would need to improve just to get the overall team up to this year's level. The capacity for improvement is there, but I don't see it happening if the chemistry issues are as bad as is being suggested.

 

[azirish]

Is there a team that has lost in the playoffs (who had a chance of winning) that does not have grumbling? Losing can be very frustating and it is not easy to resolve all the issues. At the same time, it is very very hard to FIX these issues with forced trades.

Clearly D'Antoni knows the problems. The ill fated Italian trip proved to be bad preparation for the start of the season, but was geared to try to create more togetherness. I expect there will be a lot of work this off season for the same purpose.

 

[elindholm]

Is there a team that has lost in the playoffs (who had a chance of winning) that does not have grumbling? Losing can be very frustating and it is not easy to resolve all the issues. At the same time, it is very very hard to FIX these issues with forced trades.

What defines a "forced" trade? You really seem to have no idea of how trades in the NBA actually work. Every trade has plusses and minuses for both sides, always.

It is normal for contending teams to adjust their rosters in the offseason (or midseason, for that matter). In fact, what is news is when a team stands pat.

 

[azirish]

What defines a "forced" trade? You really seem to have no idea of how trades in the NBA actually work. Every trade has plusses and minuses for both sides, always.

It is normal for contending teams to adjust their rosters in the offseason (or midseason, for that matter). In fact, what is news is when a team stands pat.

I wasn't really responding to your post. I was talking about the grumbling/chemistry stuff.

To me a forced trade is what Sir Charles did when he forced the Sixers to unload him and then when he forced the Suns to unload him. Teams cannot afford to deal with the "or else" on guys that make that kind of money.

As for deals not involving core guys, which is the vast proportion of trades, they are not in any way forced. Most deals have to do with different needs and different styles so that on the surface the deals benefit both sides.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

No way. Al Jefferson will never even be half as good as Amare.

I'm with you hell No to this trade, plus players from the East production is higher because the East Sucks!!