Players who want out

[conraddobler]

Nice post Jeff.

Russ, you're making a classic mistake taking newspaper articles, written by bitter snubbed reporters, and assuming first that they are correct, and second, that that's all there is to it.

Mike Jurecki told the truth this year when he kept saying on radio that not every player had bought into Green's plan. That was and is true. Many more changes are coming but I'll bet you right now LJ Shelton will be back next year.

You spend a lot of time grabbing half-truths and rumors and regurgitating them from afar as fact.

Here is fact: Denny has criticized his own selection of coaches all year, blaming nobody else. He tried short term fixes but couldn't make it work. But the reporters want him to wring his hands, beat his breast, and chant "Mea culpa..." That ain't going to happen.

The Denny Green you portray over and over does not exist. Listen to his radio show sometime. He tells the truth. He often says things that lay blame for this season on himself, particularly about the coaching. He does refuse to second-guess his decisions with reporters and fans. He just won't do it. The reporters then report that as refusing to admit he was wrong about anything.

What he refuses to do is justify his decisions to them. And they don't like it one bit.

I don't need to see him admit anything, I'd like to see a better coached team though.

That's all I care about, I don't care if he claims he's the fifth Beatle as long as he win's ballgames.

The thing that I am shocked about is the penalties and the lack of cohesion even after camp fear and most of a season it's worse.

It isn't about talent, that is what it is but even if you have an awful team at least they can look organized achieving their awful results. This team looks like what it is, one big cluster.

That's more acceptable out of a first year coach like Mac but out of Denny it's a big time dissapointment.

Maybe you are right and when Denny cleans out the rest of the garbage everything will come up roses but I really think next year is going to stink too unless some major coaching changes and player changes all work out just right.

 

[conraddobler]

Kindly produce a quote or a link where Green says anything that indicates demoting Wylie and bringing in hargrave didn't have the effect he desired. Not saying either guy made the team worse, just saying in both cases Green said it was to improve the team and win games, and that hasn't happened.

I don't get to listen to his radio show but I haven't seen a SINGLE post here where someone said Green conceded firing Wylie was a mistake. I have heard him suggest HIRING Wylie was, convenient bit of scapegoating since it was Green who made all the OL personnel decisions.

Everyone kept saying what's the big deal with Hargrave, who cares if he's just a friend of Green's, what harm is that? My answer then was among other things Green will lose credibility with the team if Hargrave proves to be as unqualified as expected, I'm betting some of the guys who haven't "bought in" are disillusioned by things precisely like that hiring.

I bought a local paper while in Cabo over the weekend(local to me) and one of the articles, by a bay area writer, was discussing Green(since Erickson was hired over him) and it said in effect, for all the problems SF has had since hiring Erickson, at least he's not firing qualified coaches to bring in buddies, or creating fictional jobs for unqualified friends, and then blaming any shortcomings on the players because "it can't be my system". It's not just me that thinks that about Green.

FYI Bill Walsh is now highly involved with trying to resurrect the San Jose State sports program, football in particular, he was asked about no longer being involved with the 49ers and he basically said look I wish them all the best but as a consultant all you can do is give your opinions, if they choose to ignore them that is not your fault as a consultant. he was of course talking about hiring Erickson over Green, so Walsh for one still loves the guy.

Bill Walsh will always recommend one of his guys over anyone else because it's his legacy and way of agrandizing himself which is what he is largely about.

Choosing between Dennis Green and Dennis Erickson was a no brainer though and they chose the wrong one, the correct choice in that case would have been neither IMO but Green by a landslide if you just had to pick one of the two.

Holmgren with a strong GM would be the correct choice now and I think that's how that one may go. Although whoever takes that job is going to suffer terribly for at least a year probably two more under ridiculous cap problems so who knows if he would even want the job I wouldn't if I were him.

Dennis Green does what he does and it's just going to take a while before everyone has it sink in as to why it's bad in the long run. In the short run it's just not going to be bad enough to outweigh the improvements that will come.

He wasn't the worst possible choice and in fact for the time it may turn out he was the only realistic choice given the circumstances but my bet is it won't work out as well as everyone thought but still well enough for him to last about 3 or 4 seasons there, more if he makes the playoffs in a year or two.

The end in my mind is already written and it will look a lot like it did in Minny.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Dennis Green does what he does and it's just going to take a while before everyone has it sink in as to why it's bad in the long run. In the short run it's just not going to be bad enough to outweigh the improvements that will come.

sad thing is Conrad - what you're describing above - is probably the best this franchise can hope for and would definitely be the best thing we (Arizona Card) fans have seen.

Who knows though. I mean I'm sure everyone in NE were railing to high hell against Billichek after his Cleveland flameout, then taking over the reigns and producing a 5 win season to go along with another 1-4 start. A great QB can make a whole hell of a lot of difference.

And honestly Russ - you say the firing of Wylie has been counter-productive - I just don't see it. I see an O-line that has actually gotten better at pass blocking over the course of the season. I don't attribute that to coaching - proabably has more to do with them playing more together, but I don't see where this line has taken a step back since the beginning of the season where they were a train wreck. If anything - it was on the job training for Lindsay for next year and as bad as this sounds, at this point, if you'r enot opn page with DG, get ready to pack your bags. It's his way or the highway and only time will tell if that's a good thing or bad.

 

[Russ Smith]

And honestly Russ - you say the firing of Wylie has been counter-productive - I just don't see it. I see an O-line that has actually gotten better at pass blocking over the course of the season. I don't attribute that to coaching - proabably has more to do with them playing more together, but I don't see where this line has taken a step back since the beginning of the season where they were a train wreck. If anything - it was on the job training for Lindsay for next year and as bad as this sounds, at this point, if you'r enot opn page with DG, get ready to pack your bags. It's his way or the highway and only time will tell if that's a good thing or bad.

.

Like I said, throw an Ol together and they'll struggle until they get continuity, I don't think any improvements have anything to do with eliminating Wylie for Lindsay.

I don't think Lindsay has hurt the team other than we have no idea what we WOULD have gotten from Wylie if he'd stayed, and been allowed to do his job the way he saw fit. the biggest reason the OL was so bad early was all the shuffling Green did, and a young QB, not Wylie.

I mean in the preseason Nidan wrote glowingly about Wylie, this guy knows his stuff, fans are going to love him. Skorp seconded it. now both of them seem to believe that he was fired because he wasn't good at his job?

 

[Cheesebeef]

.

I mean in the preseason Nidan wrote glowingly about Wylie, this guy knows his stuff, fans are going to love him. Skorp seconded it. now both of them seem to believe that he was fired because he wasn't good at his job?

Nidan and Skkorp wrote glowingly about Sully and how much better we were gonna be last year than anyone thought.

I love the behind the scenes stuff we get from those guys and this sight, but anything they or anyone else says here, INCLUDING me, needs to be put into perspective.

I think he was fired because he wasn't in-line with DG and the o-line was absolutely HORRENDOUS it's first couple weeks - I don't acre what group is put together - they had all of training camp to work the kinks out and they were beyond horrendous. The San Diego O-line was a ptachwork group that everyone called "thrown together" and they came out and played well right from the start - we had the same circumstances, with supposedly better talent, and came out looking like an expansion team along the O-line. You combine that with Wylie and Green not getting along, and it's not too difficult to see why he was fired.

 

[Syracusecards]

Nidan and Skkorp wrote glowingly about Sully and how much better we were gonna be last year than anyone thought.

I love the behind the scenes stuff we get from those guys and this sight, but anything they or anyone else says here, INCLUDING me, needs to be put into perspective.

I think he was fired because he wasn't in-line with DG and the o-line was absolutely HORRENDOUS it's first couple weeks - I don't acre what group is put together - they had all of training camp to work the kinks out and they were beyond horrendous. The San Diego O-line was a ptachwork group that everyone called "thrown together" and they came out and played well right from the start - we had the same circumstances, with supposedly better talent, and came out looking like an expansion team along the O-line. You combine that with Wylie and Green not getting along, and it's not too difficult to see why he was fired.

Completely agree. What is really frustrating to me, is that the guys on the O-line didn't respond by playing better. If I was Spikes, or Clement, and I saw Kendall get cut because he wasn't buying into the system, I'd work my a** off to get better. I'd be in the film room, the weight room, doing whatever it takes to make sure I wasn't being looked at as a weak link in the line. It doesn't seem like that's happened. It makes you wonder if the relationship between Wylie and Green was so far beyond repair that it was affecting the players in practice. Maybe the players had more respect for Wylie than Green. I don't know, it's all just speculation until Wylie or one of the OL goes to another team and decides they want to talk about it.

 

[daytripper]

Certainly much has been said about coaching and talent. But I cant help but wonder how much of the issue revolves around the system itself. Coach Green has touted it as the same one that Indy and Minn are using with success. Thats only two of 32 teams and both have arguably HOF QBs and WRs while playing a majority of their games on turf.
While I havent heard Green detail his system it appears that a power running game isnt a major part of it. Unfortunately it seems that is what the O line was built for. And now theyre struggling to perform.
I guess where Im going with this, is Greens system still viable? and is it flexible enough to allow for the use of existing talent?

Hasta Luego

GBR 40

 

[Russ Smith]

Nidan and Skkorp wrote glowingly about Sully and how much better we were gonna be last year than anyone thought.

I love the behind the scenes stuff we get from those guys and this sight, but anything they or anyone else says here, INCLUDING me, needs to be put into perspective.

I think he was fired because he wasn't in-line with DG and the o-line was absolutely HORRENDOUS it's first couple weeks - I don't acre what group is put together - they had all of training camp to work the kinks out and they were beyond horrendous. The San Diego O-line was a ptachwork group that everyone called "thrown together" and they came out and played well right from the start - we had the same circumstances, with supposedly better talent, and came out looking like an expansion team along the O-line. You combine that with Wylie and Green not getting along, and it's not too difficult to see why he was fired.

You put a rookie at C, and ask your inexperienced QB to make line calls because the C can't, and you're going to look out of synch early.

The point I was making is Wylie impressed everyone who saw him coach in the camps and preseason, Green threw him one curveball after another, and when the OL struggled, and Green canned Wylie, those same people started justifying the move.

 

[CardShark]

If players don't want to buy into a system, then you can't afford to keep them here. Regardless of who they are. We don't need a team full of Meyshawns. You keep building with players who believe in their coach. So what if it takes another 3 or 4 years. The NBA is full of players that feel they know more than their coach and get the coach fired. For some reason they don't win. Just ask Kobe.

The coach has to have complete control or it leads to confusion and chaos. Too many cooks syndrome. Regardless of whether you're an advocate of Green or not, he deserves the time to develop this team with players who believe in him. This is his first year. I didn't look for him to get us into the playoffs this year.

The media in the valley is very fickle. If the Cards win they say the team is turning the corner, yet the very next loss and they proclaim them as being the same old Cards. They are not Cardinal fans. They treat sports teams as launching pads for their own celebrity status. Look no further than channel 12's "The Pit" where they interview other reporters instead of actual coaches or athletes. I don't need reporters to analyze a game that I saw for myself. I don't buy into any personal slants from these guys. Like when Dan Bickley proclaimed the crowd calling for McCown to replace King as dissension against Green. Desrcibing us as sheep taking off the blinders. I thought it was because we thought King sucked and Josh was our best hope to win that game. It didn't change my mind on Green being the man to lead us into respectability. I remember them touting the hiring of Green before he refused to give them everything they wanted.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

.

Like I said, throw an Ol together and they'll struggle until they get continuity, I don't think any improvements have anything to do with eliminating Wylie for Lindsay.

thats bs. "The Big Red Line" has struggled for YEARS, despite EXTENSIVE continuity. They have never lived up to expectations. But, this past sunday was some of the finest pass blocking I've seen out of our Oline over that same period.

Somebody, somewhere pulled the right string. And, if Wylie stood in the way of progress, or couldn't get over himself, then, him getting canned DID improve the oline play.

Also, in another post, you stated you've got the ending all figured out, and thats pretty presumptuous Russ. It is, in fact, disappointing, because you're better than that.

 

[Russ Smith]

thats bs. "The Big Red Line" has struggled for YEARS, despite EXTENSIVE continuity. They have never lived up to expectations. But, this past sunday was some of the finest pass blocking I've seen out of our Oline over that same period.

Somebody, somewhere pulled the right string. And, if Wylie stood in the way of progress, or couldn't get over himself, then, him getting canned DID improve the oline play.

Also, in another post, you stated you've got the ending all figured out, and thats pretty presumptuous Russ. It is, in fact, disappointing, because you're better than that.

We've been changing guys for years, Shelton and Clement are the only guys who stayed at their positions. Big moved RG to RT when AC got hurt. Kendall LG to C after the retirement of Grutt, we brought in Spikes etc.

Amazing that our pass blocking looked so good against a team that has more sacks than only SIX NFL teams isn't it? But I guess that had nothing to do with it, I'm sure Lindsay just figured the magic string to pull right?

Someone posted the other day that Kendall came out in camp and criticized the blocking schemes, or lack thereof, given that Wylie is an established OL coach and per Cubbie and Nidan is a guy who STRESSED technique and scheme and wanted his linemen to be fighters, I kind of doubt he came in and decided to go with basic blocking schemes but who knows, maybe he decided after 24 years of coaching, 13 in the NFL, that he'd just abandon what he knew best and try something new, basic schemes? Maybe the Bears leading the NFL in fewest sacks allowed in 2001(17) was in spite of Wylie, maybe the Bears couldn't wait to let Wylie go? Or maybe Green and Wylie didn't see eye to eye because Wylie wanted to coach the OL HIS way, and Green doesn't let his assistants do that?

On your last point, I made a prediction, this board is full of predictions. Anybody who has followed this team for more than a week knows the history of coaches here, they almost NEVER last if they don't win, but Bidwill almost never fires a coach with several years left on his contract because he doesn't have the cash to afford to pay 2 coaches. So yes I predict Green will be fired before the end of his 5 year contract, I think Martz will be fired, I think Holmgren will, I am near positive Erickson will too. Does that put my prediction into context for you?

 

[ajcardfan]

Or maybe Green and Wylie didn't see eye to eye because Wylie wanted to coach the OL HIS way, and Green doesn't let his assistants do that?

Or, maybe the o-line play sucked, Green told Wylie it sucked, and Wylie went after him and tried to punch him out.

See, I can build straw men too. I have as much info as you have on the whole deal.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Green didn't fire wylie because the OL stunk he fired Wylie because he wasn't a loyal green soldier, Lindsay was, so he got the job. What I'm saying is some of these players who "want out" may be wondering if things like that were in the best interests of winning?

Every single player MUST "buy into" what the coach is selling. There is no I in team. And football is a TEAM sport. You got 10 guys on the same page and 1 jerk who is "too cool for school" and you team is shot, worthless, nothing.

The greatest player in any sport cannot be a team of the worst players in that same sport who are all on the right page.

Look at the Chargers. Last year they were a joke. They got rid of all the guy who didn't believe in Marty and now they are division leaders.

Peace

 

[Russ Smith]

Or, maybe the o-line play sucked, Green told Wylie it sucked, and Wylie went after him and tried to punch him out.

See, I can build straw men too. I have as much info as you have on the whole deal.

Green himself said there was a disagreement on how we want our OL coached. Not sure how I built a strawman I took what Green himself said after making the move, plus the Jurecki report that Kendall had complained about blocking schemes before he got cut.

Who knows, maybe Wylie did take a swing at him but as far as anybody has told us, Green made all the switches on the OL, Wylie didn't even know Kendall was being cut, he found out after the fact.

My point was everyone wants to cut Green slack for us being 4-9 because "hey we sucked before and we suck now, look what he inherited", but Wylie inherited an underachieving OL, all jumbled up, and took the fall for it. That's like taking apart the lock on your front door, tearing it into pieces all over the floor, then calling a locksmith to put it back together and yelling at him when it doesn't work. If it's not Green's fault we're 4-9, it certainly wasn't Wylie's fault the OL stunk at the beginning of the year.


Wylie was fired over a personality issue, not coaching, I'd believe in a second Wylie took a swing at him more than I would believe Green woke up one morning and decided Lindsay was the better coach.

 

[Russ Smith]

Every single player MUST "buy into" what the coach is selling. There is no I in team. And football is a TEAM sport. You got 10 guys on the same page and 1 jerk who is "too cool for school" and you team is shot, worthless, nothing.

The greatest player in any sport cannot be a team of the worst players in that same sport who are all on the right page.

Look at the Chargers. Last year they were a joke. They got rid of all the guy who didn't believe in Marty and now they are division leaders.

Peace

What if the coach is wrong, should you still "buy into" what he says?

Can you please cite which players the Chargers got rid of that didn't believe in Marty, I'll spot you one, David Boston.

 

[ajcardfan]

Green himself said there was a disagreement on how we want our OL coached. Not sure how I built a strawman I took what Green himself said after making the move, plus the Jurecki report that Kendall had complained about blocking schemes before he got cut.

Russ, all we have gotten are tiny snips of information on the whole situation. It's like somebody taking a story, ripping it to shreds, throwing it to the wind, and we've happened to grab a couple of bits as it blew by.

You're trying really hard to take those little bits and build a scenario where a good coach was unfairly fired by a guy who won't let his assistants coach their way, but only his way. Now, to do that, you have to ignore that series of articles run by Somers before training camp where several of Green's former assistants said almost the exact opposite. They said that he puts a lot of responsibility on his assistants to produce and think outside the box.

Who knows, Russ, you could be right. There are also, undoubtedly, a bunch of other factors involved that we know nothing about. So, until someone gives us more, the only thing any of us can do is build strawmen.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, all we have gotten are tiny snips of information on the whole situation. It's like somebody taking a story, ripping it to shreds, throwing it to the wind, and we've happened to grab a couple of bits as it blew by.

.

I'm not sure what your point is AJ. Green keeps everything in house by design, if you're saying we're all just guessing and we shouldn't, then I guess Skorp should close the board down permanently? And yes that's a strawman.

Don't recall the Somers article but I would assume the guys quoted were ones who got along with Green, not ones who didn't.

I will say this, days after Wylie was demoted I was told by someone who should know, that none of the media covering the team had any idea what had happened to cause it and they were all assuming it was a snap decision by green who is prone to letting his temper make snap decisions. That's an example of what I call lack of honesty with Green, instead of just saying he demoted Wylie over a conflict of personalities, he makes up this grandiose story of Lindsay "progressing" so quickly he felt he needed to make the change. Even Lindsay countered that when he openly admitted after the change he hadn't known anything about it, players did the same thing, none of them knew it was going to happen.

Forget about all the "official" stuff what do YOU think was the real reason Wylie was fired(demoted)?

 

[john h]

What fascinates me is how people can say good riddance, without even knowing who these players are?

If it's some overpaid guy who does nothing, like Ray Thompson, sure by all means show them the door. If it's a key core young player, I would hope this is not an irreconcilable situation.

Every team in the NFL has this issue, but when you're trying to rebuild a franchise the LAST thing you want out there to potential free agents is players are not happy with coach Green. If it's hey he works us too hard wanting to win, that's one thing, but if it's he's just a power hungry tyrant who rules with fear(whatever Dex's quote was I forget), that's NOT a good thing for others around the league to be hearing from Cards players.

Right on Russ. Just because a player wants out of Cardinal land is no reason to say good riddance with out even knowing who it is. What if it is Bolden and Fitz and Big? Is that good riddance. Who wants to stay here is the question that should be posed? Until we can turn this team around no good player will want to stay here and would prefer to go to a contender who pays more. There is no loyalyty in the NFL except to money and winning a ring. If someone thinks we cannot get worse then yes we can.

 

[john h]

Very well said my man! Any player that doesn't want to buy into Green's program can pack their bags and get the hell out of town. And that goes for players like Berry, Boldin right on down the line. I don't care how good they are.

Green demands effort and if they don't want to give it, then.....

Just could be much of the problem is Green system and not the players. Maybe Green needs to back up his truck.

 

[john h]

I dont see Shipp or Player going anywhere. And I would say either Shelton or Clement will still be around as backups.

And on D, I doubt Ronnie, KVB, Davis or Hill will be going anywhere. Starks, well he is a bit to high priced to be injured so much. When he has played he has been great this year.

I could very easily seeing Bolden asking to be traded and I could see Wilson request not to be franchised.

 

[Russ Smith]

Right on Russ. Just because a player wants out of Cardinal land is no reason to say good riddance with out even knowing who it is. What if it is Bolden and Fitz and Big? Is that good riddance. Who wants to stay here is the question that should be posed? Until we can turn this team around no good player will want to stay here and would prefer to go to a contender who pays more. There is no loyalyty in the NFL except to money and winning a ring. If someone thinks we cannot get worse then yes we can.

All I'm saying is the people who are saying "don't let the door hit you in the butt" without having any idea who the players are, are guilty of blind faith in Green. Yes Green has improved this team, but he's made mistakes like ANY coach, and I can certainly see where there would be players on this team who might be unhappy with some of those mistakes. I imagine few are happy with Green's shuffling of QB's although frankly I think we had to see King because it was clear Josh wasn't getting it done, King blew his chance but at least we know that now and get rid of him. I would bet there are guys on the OL not too thrilled with all the changes there, took a weak underachieving unit and made it worse early.

I have no idea what would have happened if Wylie hadn't been fired but I would bet my left arm the OL would have been coached better if he had, and even better if he'd actually had some say in determining the makeup of the OL. The guy resurrected the Bear OL while he was there, he's a proven coach.

And in case people forget, the day we hired Wylie, I googled up a quote from an ESPN employee just RAVING about what a great job Wylie was doing in Chicago, how his OL "fights you for 60 minutes", and how he coaches the OL the way it should be coached. That ESPN personality..... Dennis Green, a quote when he still worked for ESPN and Wylie still worked for the Bears.

 

[john h]

All I'm saying is the people who are saying "don't let the door hit you in the butt" without having any idea who the players are, are guilty of blind faith in Green. Yes Green has improved this team, but he's made mistakes like ANY coach, and I can certainly see where there would be players on this team who might be unhappy with some of those mistakes. I imagine few are happy with Green's shuffling of QB's although frankly I think we had to see King because it was clear Josh wasn't getting it done, King blew his chance but at least we know that now and get rid of him. I would bet there are guys on the OL not too thrilled with all the changes there, took a weak underachieving unit and made it worse early.

I have no idea what would have happened if Wylie hadn't been fired but I would bet my left arm the OL would have been coached better if he had, and even better if he'd actually had some say in determining the makeup of the OL. The guy resurrected the Bear OL while he was there, he's a proven coach.

And in case people forget, the day we hired Wylie, I googled up a quote from an ESPN employee just RAVING about what a great job Wylie was doing in Chicago, how his OL "fights you for 60 minutes", and how he coaches the OL the way it should be coached. That ESPN personality..... Dennis Green, a quote when he still worked for ESPN and Wylie still worked for the Bears.

I think the firing of Wylie was a lot more serious than most people realize. Not only firing him 6 games into the season but replacing him with someone with basically no experience. Seems to me this will make it just a little bit more difficult to find a good offensive line coach who will want to come here as we operate in strange ways. Other than our defensive coach I think we need to start over and Coach Green should be open to ideas from his coaches and not fire them if they do not agree with him. We also need to settle people into a position and not constantly move them from one spot to another. This may be a problem in itself in that we are apprently talking about firing half the team and will be more or less starting all over again next year trying to form some sort of team concept. If we made progress this year it was as much by subtraction as addition. Green really needs a major adjustment in how he approaches next year. What he did this year was terrible in moving perople around, firing coaches and starters, benching starters and changing QB's at absurd times.