POP: gasol deal incomprehensible

[D-Dogg]

Again choosing to ignore the specifics.
1) Davis was injured that season, and continued to be injured for quite a few years after the trade.
2) Davis did NOT get along with Scott, and Scott wanted him gone.
3) Dale Davis had a HUGE expiring deal that season at $10M.

Really now?


1) Davis played 60 games at least each season, and led the Warriors into the playoffs, upsetting Dallas. The previous season to the trade, he was sixth in the league in scoring.

2) Ok.

3) Ok.

4) You forgot about Claxton...that's ok...most would.


Let's contrast that with the Pau trade.

1) Pau too has been injured. In fact, his back is still sore. In fact, he only played 59 games last season. And he would have been 21st in scoring (had he had enough starts to qualify, that is).

2) The Grizz want to sell the team. They didn't want Pau and his contract there any longer.

3) Kwame had a HUGE expiring contract and will have 10 million off the books next year.

4) Memphis picked up a combo guard with a ton of potential, and tiny rookie contract in Javaris Crittenton.

5) Memphis picked up the rights to Marc Gasol, who has been improving very well in Europe, and is compared favorably with Splitter who some people are juicing over.

6) Memphis got two first rounders in the deal (which will likely be late picks, but still first round).



Now, were you arguing that the Baron deal was better, or worse?

People are mad ONLY because Pau is a potential missing piece to a title team. Nobody cried that Baron went to Golden freaking State for less than what the Lakers got Pau for.

 

[The Man In Black]

SteelDog is a homer...convincing that guy Phoenix is hot would take a nuclear missile.

Some people are just that dense.
Donald...are you listening.

Sarcasm or not, Pop doesn't really care what anyone else thinks. He doesn't give a rat's about ratings or any of that stuff that can't be controlled. All he cares about is winning titles and he's won more of them than Phil since 1999.

 

[ambchang_]

It's the steal of the century, but not bull. From that point on, it's whiny. And Pop complaining about bad deals or getting something for nothing is like Mike Tyson bitching about crazy people.

Take issue with WHY Memphis wanted nothing back, or as close to nothing that they could get, but don't take issue for a team giving them exactly what they wanted.

Wasn't the whole issue around Memphis turning down more attractive offers (Bulls) and not talking to more teams prior to the trade?

 

[ambchang_]

Right cause POP isn't smart enough to manage the minutes of his team and create substitutions patterns that don't give his team the best chance to win.

Apparently, Pop is a coach that is stupid enough to do something as obvious as pulling his entire starting 5 out at the end of a close game to tank.

I find that shocking to say the least.

Well apology accepted. Unfortunately, you have not evolved beyond troll and your posts keep getting more ridiculous by the moment.

How? Care to state?

 

[ambchang_]

Really now?


1) Davis played 60 games at least each season, and led the Warriors into the playoffs, upsetting Dallas. The previous season to the trade, he was sixth in the league in scoring.

False, he played 46 games in 04-05 (year of the trade), 54 the next, and then 63 the year after.

2) Ok.

3) Ok.

4) You forgot about Claxton...that's ok...most would.

Claxton was there 1st to make the salaries match, and second he WAS a young guard with potential. His scoring average has increased consistently. In fact, he was averaging 13.1 ppg and 6.2 apg with GSW that year. He was playing far and away better that Crittenton was this year. Baron Davis on the other hand, was at 18.9 and 7.2 that year, and the decline in production was obviously due to his injuries (22.9 and 7.5) the year before.

Let's contrast that with the Pau trade.

1) Pau too has been injured. In fact, his back is still sore. In fact, he only played 59 games last season. And he would have been 21st in scoring (had he had enough starts to qualify, that is).

And he is healthy THIS year. He has played in 44 so far in the season. No to mention that the 59 games he played were all in the second half of last season, meaning that he has fully recovered from injury (broken foot or leg, don't remember which).

2) The Grizz want to sell the team. They didn't want Pau and his contract there any longer.

We all know that, but Pau Gasol could easily land expiring contracts AND young talent, such as PJ Brown + Ben Gordon last year.

3) Kwame had a HUGE expiring contract and will have 10 million off the books next year.

Isn't it $8M? Which is the same as PJ Brown? And to compare that to the Davis deal, Dale Davis had $10M coming off.

4) Memphis picked up a combo guard with a ton of potential, and tiny rookie contract in Javaris Crittenton.

Ben Gordan has way more potential than Crittenton, Claxton was better than Crittenton is.

5) Memphis picked up the rights to Marc Gasol, who has been improving very well in Europe, and is compared favorably with Splitter who some people are juicing over.

A 2nd round pick that has huge questions marks. Splitter may be an attractive talent, but there is no way that he would amount to much in a trade scenario, none of which could land a Gasol type talent.

6) Memphis got two first rounders in the deal (which will likely be late picks, but still first round).

Late 1st rounders are worth LESS than early second rounders. Similar talent, guaranteed contracts.

Now, were you arguing that the Baron deal was better, or worse?

People are mad ONLY because Pau is a potential missing piece to a title team. Nobody cried that Baron went to Golden freaking State for less than what the Lakers got Pau for.

This may also be true, but the Gasol deal is fishy at best.

 

[ambchang_]

SteelDog is a homer...convincing that guy Phoenix is hot would take a nuclear missile.

Was that the reputation he was referring to? I see .....
Also, he is not a homer, he just choose to ignore arguments and delete parts he can't answer.

 

[D-Dogg]

SteelDog is a homer...convincing that guy Phoenix is hot would take a nuclear missile.

Some people are just that dense.
Donald...are you listening.

Sarcasm or not, Pop doesn't really care what anyone else thinks. He doesn't give a rat's about ratings or any of that stuff that can't be controlled. All he cares about is winning titles and he's won more of them than Phil since 1999.

Don't you mean 199*?

 

[D-Dogg]

We all know that, but Pau Gasol could easily land expiring contracts AND young talent, such as PJ Brown + Ben Gordon last year. Ben Gordan has way more potential than Crittenton, Claxton was better than Crittenton is.

They didn't WANT more money. Ben Gordon is owed 10 million plus over the next two years. Critt is owed 2 million. BIIIIIG difference. Their primary motive was dropping salary for sale. In two years, if Critt shows something, the new owners can sign him up for more. Ben Gordon makes 6.5 million next year. 4 something now.

Isn't it $8M? Which is the same as PJ Brown? And to compare that to the Davis deal, Dale Davis had $10M coming off.

Kwame makes 9.1 million this season, the last year of his deal.

A 2nd round pick that has huge questions marks. Splitter may be an attractive talent, but there is no way that he would amount to much in a trade scenario, none of which could land a Gasol type talent. Late 1st rounders are worth LESS than early second rounders. Similar talent, guaranteed contracts.

Again, all things that are attractive to a team wanting the skinniest salary possible, while still selling possible owners on "potential young talent."

Nobody is looking at the deal from what Memphis wanted...they wanted Pau out and the absolute minimum in return. They want to be lean to be attractive for sale. Adding Ben Gordon who is already due 6.5 million next year and will want an even bigger contract after that is counter-productive to what they want to do. Bottom line, they are not looking for wins. They are looking to have no salary, to suck, have some cheap ass young talent and a top 3 pick in the draft. THAT is attractive to a new owner who wants to get a franchise on the cheap.

 

[ambchang_]

They didn't WANT more money. Ben Gordon is owed 10 million plus over the next two years. Critt is owed 2 million. BIIIIIG difference. Their primary motive was dropping salary for sale. In two years, if Critt shows something, the new owners can sign him up for more. Ben Gordon makes 6.5 million next year. 4 something now.

If dropping salary is al they want, get the Bulls draft picks over the LA draft picks they would be significantly higher.
Doesn't Nocioni's salary end this year, or does he have an extension already? Joe Smith's 5.2 is gone at the end of this year. Chris Duhon is another option.

Kwame makes 9.1 million this season, the last year of his deal.

Sorry, I always thought it was $8.
Speaking of busts, why in the world did they sign Milicic to that awful deal in the summer if they want to drop salary THIS desperately?

Again, all things that are attractive to a team wanting the skinniest salary possible, while still selling possible owners on "potential young talent."

Nobody is looking at the deal from what Memphis wanted...they wanted Pau out and the absolute minimum in return. They want to be lean to be attractive for sale. Adding Ben Gordon who is already due 6.5 million next year and will want an even bigger contract after that is counter-productive to what they want to do. Bottom line, they are not looking for wins. They are looking to have no salary, to suck, have some cheap ass young talent and a top 3 pick in the draft. THAT is attractive to a new owner who wants to get a franchise on the cheap.

Like I said, loads and loads of options from the Bulls, and it's not even funny. In fact, Memphis could off load salaries FASTER by trading with the Bulls. This is just terrible GMing from Wallace, and if I remember correctly, wasn't he the same guy who dumped Carter for less than nothing (had to buyout Mourning) to the Nets?

 

[D-Dogg]

Interesting article from the Chi Sun Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/776668,CST-SPT-bullnt05.article

''We had conversations with Chicago that were non-satisfactory,'' said Heisley, a St. Charles resident. ''They didn't want to take on the luxury-tax situation, and Los Angeles was.

''In this league, if you're in a big-market area, you can afford to do those things. We negotiated as hard as we could for quality players, and [the Bulls] refused to give up anybody in their core group. What they offered were guys who play on the second and third team, so we turned them down.''

Bulls general manager John Paxson didn't have much of a reaction to Heisley's comments.

''I don't feel I need to comment on what another team's owner is saying about anything,'' Paxson said. ''I also would never make any statement about how another team should conduct their business.''

Because the Bulls don't have any big expiring contracts, the only way they could have provided relief to the Grizzlies was by signing free agent P.J. Brown and including him in the deal. That would have put the Bulls well over the luxury-tax threshold.

Grizzlies management is under fire for the Gasol deal because the local fans and media know the Bulls made a better offer a year ago.

Although the Bulls refused to give up Luol Deng or Ben Gordon, they offered a package of young players that included Tyrus Thomas, their first-round pick in 2007 (which turned into Joakim Noah) and P.J. Brown's expiring $8.5 million contract. But Heisley wasn't interested in dealing Gasol.

What changed from last year to this year is the Grizz have gone into full scale fire sale mode. If the Bulls had been willing to sign PJ and deal him, going into the luxury tax, they'd likely be the employer of Gasol right now, at least according to Memphis.

 

[abomb]

Interesting article from the Chi Sun Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/776668,CST-SPT-bullnt05.article



What changed from last year to this year is the Grizz have gone into full scale fire sale mode. If the Bulls had been willing to sign PJ and deal him, going into the luxury tax, they'd likely be the employer of Gasol right now, at least according to Memphis.

Facts and quotes from the owner have no place here.

 

[D-Dogg]

Speaking of busts, why in the world did they sign Milicic to that awful deal in the summer if they want to drop salary THIS desperately?

I don't think they were in firesale mode then. I'm also not saying that Wallace is a bright GM either.


Oh, and Kwame has better stats this season than Darko!!

 

[Covert Rain]

SteelDog is a homer...convincing that guy Phoenix is hot would take a nuclear missile.

So says the Spurs troll.

Apparently, Pop is a coach that is stupid enough to do something as obvious as pulling his entire starting 5 out at the end of a close game to tank.

I find that shocking to say the least.



How? Care to state?

Sure...improving his draft position and as you stated in another post..."he doesn't care what other people think".

 

[nowagimp]

They didn't WANT more money. Ben Gordon is owed 10 million plus over the next two years. Critt is owed 2 million. BIIIIIG difference. .

Youre kidding right, crittenton a better deal then Ben Gordon? Ben Gordon is an established NBA player, 2nd best 6th man in the NBA last year. Crittenton played against defenses that were focussed on kobe, Bynum and Odom. No one is fooled, no NBA types are, crittenton is a project with an uncertain outcome. Ben Gordon at 5+ mil a year is a steal, find another player who averages 20ppg(over the past 2 years)n -while being the focus of the defense- for 5 mil. He would fit in a running game(memphis game) better than critt. Nah you have to have your head in the sand to think the laker deal was comparable value, it was one of the worst trades in many years. Perhaps the worst since they acquired kwame for Caron butler, but at least butler was an unknown at the time. This trade is different, an established all star for two packs of gum and some movie tickets.

 

[D-Dogg]

Doesn't Nocioni's salary end this year, or does he have an extension already?

Yes, his ends this year at $8.5 million. However, he isn't an "expiring contract" in the sense he isn't a guy you bring in to dump. If he were to be included in a deal, he'd be a guy they'd have to sign to a longer contract on talent alone.

He's not a Kwame Brown, PJ Brown, Dale Davis, etc type guy with a monster salary and horrible production...the very essence of a guy you pick up simply so he drops off the books.

 

[D-Dogg]

Youre kidding right, crittenton a better deal then Ben Gordon? Ben Gordon is an established NBA player, 2nd best 6th man in the NBA last year. Crittenton played against defenses that were focussed on kobe, Bynum and Odom. No one is fooled, no NBA types are, crittenton is a project with an uncertain outcome. Ben Gordon at 5+ mil a year is a steal, find another player who averages 20ppg(over the past 2 years)n -while being the focus of the defense- for 5 mil. He would fit in a running game(memphis game) better than critt. Nah you have to have your head in the sand to think the laker deal was comparable value, it was one of the worst trades in many years. Perhaps the worst since they acquired kwame for Caron butler, but at least butler was an unknown at the time. This trade is different, an established all star for two packs of gum and some movie tickets.

First, we were comparing the Davis/Pau deal. Which was an established all-star for a pack of gum and a laser disc of Ishtar.

Second, I even called it out that people were looking at a trade as if Memphis wanted to improve (when a Gordon would be a good call) and instead it looks more like they just want to dump salary and have young talent that MAY get better. Not leaving the new owner on the hook for an 6.5 million dollar salary instead of a 1.5 million one. Memphis was in fire sale mode. What they got made sense...for them.

Third, it appears that Chi didn't want to give up Gordon last season, and damn sure wasn't going to this year. The article from the Sun Times I posted says as much. Gordon was never even offered up...it's just a hypothetical.

 

[ambchang_]

Facts and quotes from the owner have no place here.

But believing quotes from an owner who just went through a questionable trade does.

 

[ambchang_]

So says the Spurs troll.



Sure...improving his draft position and as you stated in another post..."he doesn't care what other people think".

If he doesn't care, then why would he EVEN play his best player 34 min a game? Why would he have his starting PG back at the end of the season? Why would he even bring David Robinson back prematurely in the season, only to see his foot break? Why not just go with worst record in the league? Why settle for 3rd worse?

 

[Covert Rain]

If he doesn't care, then why would he EVEN play his best player 34 min a game? Why would he have his starting PG back at the end of the season? Why would he even bring David Robinson back prematurely in the season, only to see his foot break? Why not just go with worst record in the league? Why settle for 3rd worse?

To make it less obvious he was tanking. He was already getting criticized in the media that year for it. Besides bringing back guys at the very end isn't going to impact your draft position. By then the damage was already done.

Even the bad teams are going to win games they shouldn't. Even if you play to lose in this league your going to win some. Besides, those other teams you mention were probably tanking games to. It's not like San Antonio was alone.

Not to mention that there are always 1 or 2 teams that tank every season to improve their draft position.

 

[ambchang_]

To make it less obvious he was tanking. He was already getting criticized in the media that year for it. Besides bringing back guys at the very end isn't going to impact your draft position. By then the damage was already done.

Even the bad teams are going to win games they shouldn't. Even if you play to lose in this league your going to win some. Besides, those other teams you mention were probably tanking games to. It's not like San Antonio was alone.

Not to mention that there are always 1 or 2 teams that tank every season to improve their draft position.

But he doesn't care, right? Then why would he make it less obvious, but obvious to a point where a casual fan like you could see it as obviously tanking? Again, if he wanted to make it LESS obvious, just throw in weird combinations of player in there, one that doesn't have a PG or a C, for long stretches of the game, randomly substituion players in and out to ruin rhythm, put in terrible match ups, run plays that will never work, etc .... and the answer that could neer been answered, they were THIRD wose in the league that season, with a 5-10 record in March. If they lost a few more games in March and April (tanking season), the Spurs could at the very least be jockeying for a better draft position, but they didn't.

A that year, outside of Duncan, there wasn't anybody who was obviously a blue chip player, to witness, Keith Van Horn went second.

The last bunch of teams they beat in reverse chronological order back to February:
Denver - 4th worse record that year, why would you beat this team? And they beat them by 6 points.
LA Lakers - The Lakers were 56-26 that year, making the playoffs.
Orlando - 45-37, made playoffs
Cleveland - 42-40, barely missed playoffs, very much alive when lost to the Spurs.
Boston - full tank mode that year.
Indiana - 39-42, again, alive for playoff run when lost to the Spurs.
Toronto - 30-52 - they pretty much sucked that year, if they were tanking, could have done a MUCH better job.
Milwaukee - 33-49, same as Toronto.
Dallas - Pretty bad team, would suck for two more years. Again, why would you beat this team if you were tanking?

 

[The Man In Black]

Give it up Ambchang--Steel Dog is really this dense. He's more like a pitbull really but one who suffers from Valley Fever.

When you're ready to talk hoops again tin puppy, I'm game.

All these new changes in the west are doing exactly what Pop wants, pushing his team under the radar. Too bad I can't get 15-1 odds again. It was sweet winning that the 1st time around.

 

[Covert Rain]

But he doesn't care, right? Then why would he make it less obvious, but obvious to a point where a casual fan like you could see it as obviously tanking? Again, if he wanted to make it LESS obvious, just throw in weird combinations of player in there, one that doesn't have a PG or a C, for long stretches of the game, randomly substituion players in and out to ruin rhythm, put in terrible match ups, run plays that will never work, etc .... and the answer that could neer been answered, they were THIRD wose in the league that season, with a 5-10 record in March. If they lost a few more games in March and April (tanking season), the Spurs could at the very least be jockeying for a better draft position, but they didn't.

A that year, outside of Duncan, there wasn't anybody who was obviously a blue chip player, to witness, Keith Van Horn went second.

The last bunch of teams they beat in reverse chronological order back to February:
Denver - 4th worse record that year, why would you beat this team? And they beat them by 6 points.
LA Lakers - The Lakers were 56-26 that year, making the playoffs.
Orlando - 45-37, made playoffs
Cleveland - 42-40, barely missed playoffs, very much alive when lost to the Spurs.
Boston - full tank mode that year.
Indiana - 39-42, again, alive for playoff run when lost to the Spurs.
Toronto - 30-52 - they pretty much sucked that year, if they were tanking, could have done a MUCH better job.
Milwaukee - 33-49, same as Toronto.
Dallas - Pretty bad team, would suck for two more years. Again, why would you beat this team if you were tanking?

Give it up Ambchang--Steel Dog is really this dense. He's more like a pitbull really but one who suffers from Valley Fever.

When you're ready to talk hoops again tin puppy, I'm game.

All these new changes in the west are doing exactly what Pop wants, pushing his team under the radar. Too bad I can't get 15-1 odds again. It was sweet winning that the 1st time around.

Give it up trolls. Go post on the Spurs site where they will buy into the homer opinions of other Spurs trolls.

PS Man in Black you have yet to talk basketball.

 

[nowagimp]

All these new changes in the west are doing exactly what Pop wants, pushing his team under the radar.

sounds like POPS is going for a good 1st round pick, like in the past.

 

[cly2tw]

The thing I don't understand most is why the Grizz couldn't move Cardinal's contract in the same deal. Say Gasol/Cardinal for Brown/Odom/Critt, without the picks as Odom is definitely worth more than those low picks. Odom's is only one year longer and could be traded for better assets.

 

[D-Dogg]

The thing I don't understand most is why the Grizz couldn't move Cardinal's contract in the same deal. Say Gasol/Cardinal for Brown/Odom/Critt, without the picks as Odom is definitely worth more than those low picks. Odom's is only one year longer and could be traded for better assets.

Because the Lakers weren't doing that deal.