POP: gasol deal incomprehensible

[cly2tw]

Because the Lakers weren't doing that deal.

Are you telling me that deal was bad for the Lakers? The'd win fewer games and have worse chance mainly replacing Odom with Gasol? You can't be serious!

 

[D-Dogg]

Are you telling me that deal was bad for the Lakers? The'd win fewer games and have worse chance mainly replacing Odom with Gasol? You can't be serious!

Stephen Colbert you are not.

 

[ambchang_]

Give it up trolls. Go post on the Spurs site where they will buy into the homer opinions of other Spurs trolls.

PS Man in Black you have yet to talk basketball.

I don't get it, why are we trolls? Because we do not agree with your point of view? I come here strictly to have a different point of view on basketball outside of a Spurs fan setting to avoid having a myopic view on the NBA, and I am sure MIB comes in with the same intentions.

So far, you have yet to come up with any good reasons or evidence regarding the Spurs tanking in 1997 other than "I saw it, therefore it is true". You could't come up with any statistics, substitution patterns, or anything even remotely close to objective analysis in supporting your claim.

Another thing I found amazing is that calling another poster a Spurs fan is supposed to be an insult? I mean, this certainly fits into being open minded about basketball discussion. And have you ever been to Spurs forums? Fans disagree with each other all the time, argue about basketball, and have fans from the Suns, Mavs, Bulls, Raptors, Pistons, Cavs, Kings, etc ... to have different perspectives. Arguments were encouraged (even though there are a fair share of trolls).

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't get it, why are we trolls? Because we do not agree with your point of view? I come here strictly to have a different point of view on basketball outside of a Spurs fan setting to avoid having a myopic view on the NBA, and I am sure MIB comes in with the same intentions.

Right, your intentions are not to get a rise out of any Suns fans right?

So far, you have yet to come up with any good reasons or evidence regarding the Spurs tanking in 1997 other than "I saw it, therefore it is true". You could't come up with any statistics, substitution patterns, or anything even remotely close to objective analysis in supporting your claim.

Again, it was widely commented on that season by NBA Analysts. I also watched several Spurs games that season and thought his substitution patters were suspect. So I guess all of us were just imagining what we were seeing right? So I should believe you over what I had seen with my own 2 eyes right? Again, until I see evidence otherwise...forgive me If I take my own account of things more seriously then the word of Spurs fan trying to protect the reputation of his team.

PS. A Spurs fan coming to a Suns site to post and be objective would suggest that your willing to waiver in your view of your own team. Yet all I have seen you do in your posts is posts your opinions countering views of Suns fans and I have yet to see you change your opinion even once on any topic.

Well Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

 

[ambchang_]

Right, your intentions are not to get a rise out of any Suns fans right?

Arguing with you whether the Spurs tanked got a rise out of you? You are easily amused.

Again, it was widely commented on that season by NBA Analysts. I also watched several Spurs games that season and thought his substitution patters were suspect. So I guess all of us were just imagining what we were seeing right? So I should believe you over what I had seen with my own 2 eyes right? Again, until I see evidence otherwise...forgive me If I take my own account of things more seriously then the word of Spurs fan trying to protect the reputation of his team.

So basically you are saying is that your mind has already been made up 10 years ago. I have presented you with facts, and you ignored all of them. You HAVE seen evidnce otherwise, you just chose to ignore them. It wasn't me saying "I didn't see the Spurs were tanking, that's that", which is exactly what you were doing, I presented numbers, game by game breakdown, injury history and such, what OTHER kind of evidence would you seek?

PS. A Spurs fan coming to a Suns site to post and be objective would suggest that your willing to waiver in your view of your own team. Yet all I have seen you do in your posts is posts your opinions countering views of Suns fans and I have yet to see you change your opinion even once on any topic.

Well Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

Let me try to get your logic.

I come in here looking for other points of view.
I disagree with some of the points of view.
I am equivalent to people who won't even listen to other people's point of view.

I am simply having trouble connecting the dots. You are basically saying that I should give up my own point of view if I ever choose to look at things from another perspective, which is untrue.

In fact, I have agreed to some views on this board, I just chose not to post "I agree" and add nothing else. The reason I say something is because I felt certain points are missed and that I view things differently.

Perhaps you could one day see that the world has more than one view point, and those who doesn't agree with you aren't necessarily trolls, and I wish you luck in finding that light.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Right, your intentions are not to get a rise out of any Suns fans right?



Again, it was widely commented on that season by NBA Analysts. I also watched several Spurs games that season and thought his substitution patters were suspect. So I guess all of us were just imagining what we were seeing right? So I should believe you over what I had seen with my own 2 eyes right? Again, until I see evidence otherwise...forgive me If I take my own account of things more seriously then the word of Spurs fan trying to protect the reputation of his team.

PS. A Spurs fan coming to a Suns site to post and be objective would suggest that your willing to waiver in your view of your own team. Yet all I have seen you do in your posts is posts your opinions countering views of Suns fans and I have yet to see you change your opinion even once on any topic.

Well Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

Funny the rose colored glasses here.

EVERYONE KNEW the Spurs were tanking that season. Most people believed that Robinson could have played but they just told him to sit out. I think it was back issues. Pop was the GM then. He fired the coach either during the season or just afterwards. I remember thinking how convenient that was. Your team is doing poorly. You fire the coach, add Robinson and Duncan and come out looking like a hero.

So do your Johnny Cochran imitation if you want, but we all know they did it.

 

[ambchang_]

Funny the rose colored glasses here.

EVERYONE KNEW the Spurs were tanking that season. Most people believed that Robinson could have played but they just told him to sit out. I think it was back issues. Pop was the GM then. He fired the coach either during the season or just afterwards. I remember thinking how convenient that was. Your team is doing poorly. You fire the coach, add Robinson and Duncan and come out looking like a hero.

So do your Johnny Cochran imitation if you want, but we all know they did it.

You would probably have more credibility if you have actually did your research that Robinson actually came back from his back issues to play 6 games that season, he then broke his foot and required surgery to sit the rest of the season. That fact was stated multiple times in this thread alone.

2nd, he fired Bob Hill a few games before Robinson came back, and people were ripping him apart for pulling a Riley, only to dismiss the fact that players like Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson and David Robinson has publicly stated that hey need to implement a system other than run-and-gun to have success in the playoffs. Bob Hill had highly suspect coaching abilities, and his absence from the coaching ranks for 9 years since, and his quick failure with the Sonics proved as much.

3rd, the we all know argument holds no water whatsoever. It's like people saying the sun revolves around the earth, and we need not to look at hard evidence, we all know it. Well, they thought wrong.

It is tiring to state the same simple facts over and over again, then have people ignore all evidence and said "I know the contrary is true, and I choose to ignore all evidence." It is fine to be ignorant about any subject, as we all know that we can't possibly know about everything, but refusing to admit that you have been wrong all the time, or even open up the mind to the possibility that whatever you have always believed is incorrect when strong evidence suggest otherwise is not.

 

[Covert Rain]

So basically you are saying is that your mind has already been made up 10 years ago.

No. I am saying I made up my mind when I witnessed it with my own two eyes. I am saying I agree with general convention of wisdom of that time among NBA analysts and circles.

I have presented you with facts, and you ignored all of them.

No what you have presented is statistics that have no bearing on substitution patters or if players were intentionally kept out for whatever reasons other then tanking games.

I come in here looking for other points of view.
I disagree with some of the points of view.

You did? I don't remember your first post being "Hey Guys, I need your opinion on something". I believe one of your first posts was around defending Robert "the thug" Horry if my memory serves me correctly. If that wasn't you then I apologize.

You are basically saying that I should give up my own point of view if I ever choose to look at things from another perspective, which is untrue.

Again, as I have stated more then once. I would never try and change your opinion. Only stated that nothing you have presented would change my mind. Again, I have yet to see any post where ANYBODY has managed to change your stance on anything.

Perhaps you could one day see that the world has more than one view point, and those who doesn't agree with you aren't necessarily trolls, and I wish you luck in finding that light.

Oh I fully understand that. Your are new to this board. However, as you will see there are other posters on this board (a la Donald) who are Lakers fans that I have zero issues with. They don't agree with everything and we have plenty of discussions. I don't consider them trolls because on occasion they have seen the "light" and could understand someone else's point of view while not necessarily agreeing with it.

Maybe you will prove to be un-troll like over time. Who knows? I mean if the Spurs can tank a season and get a Tim Duncan in the lottery..anything can happen right?

Funny the rose colored glasses here.

So do your Johnny Cochran imitation if you want, but we all know they did it.

 

[ambchang_]

No. I am saying I made up my mind when I witnessed it with my own two eyes. I am saying I agree with general convention of wisdom of that time among NBA analysts and circles.

No what you have presented is statistics that have no bearing on substitution patters or if players were intentionally kept out for whatever reasons other then tanking games.

So what would have bearing if minutes played, injury history and game by game lineups don't change your mind? Not to mention end of year record winning against teams with very winnable records by small margins? Those are games that could easily have been lost.

Back in those days, Popovich was roasted for firing Bob Hill because of the previous year's regular season records. As history has shown, the choice was a right one, Bob Hill is simply not a high quality coach, he couldn't even land an NCAA gig.

You did? I don't remember your first post being "Hey Guys, I need your opinion on something". I believe one of your first posts was around defending Robert "the thug" Horry if my memory serves me correctly. If that wasn't you then I apologize.

I don't agree with Horry being a thug, and I stated my opinions, what was troll-like in that? The board has already stated loud and clear that the opinion is that Horry was indeed a thug, I don't have to ask any more questions on that. Subsequently, I was given evidence that contradicts each other (such as 80's ball was beautiful with no thugs when Maurice Lucas, Jeff Ruland, Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer runs amok in that era).

Again, as I have stated more then once. I would never try and change your opinion. Only stated that nothing you have presented would change my mind. Again, I have yet to see any post where ANYBODY has managed to change your stance on anything.

Because the arguments presented so far is not convincing, and is largely regugitated opinions that doesn't have any evidence to back up. If anybody can come up with evidence, such as consistently suspect substition patterns, quotes from insiders, etc ... I am all ears.

Oh I fully understand that. Your are new to this board. However, as you will see there are other posters on this board (a la Donald) who are Lakers fans that I have zero issues with. They don't agree with everything and we have plenty of discussions. I don't consider them trolls because on occasion they have seen the "light" and could understand someone else's point of view while not necessarily agreeing with it.

Maybe you will prove to be un-troll like over time. Who knows? I mean if the Spurs can tank a season and get a Tim Duncan in the lottery..anything can happen right?

There you go again, stating opinions as facts. And with your definition, you are acting like a troll (getting people riled up with off hand comments).

I have stated over and over again about the offensive prowess of Nash, the finishing abilities of Stoudemire, how Shaq can improve the Suns offense (but hurt their defense), etc.... Those, I assume would be "seen the light" comments because it does project the Suns in a favourable angle. But any attempts to say that the Suns are not absolutely positively perfect is seen as a trolling attempts.

 

[Covert Rain]

So what would have bearing if minutes played, injury history and game by game lineups don't change your mind? Not to mention end of year record winning against teams with very winnable records by small margins? Those are games that could easily have been lost.

If I hadn't seen in games where players were being pulled out in close games that shouldn't have been. If I hadn't seen the Spurs use guys at the end of the bench that wouldn't get a minute on any other squad. If I had not seen that...it would have convinced me.

If I hadn't seen several NBA analysts and quotes from GM's stating that they also believed San Antonio was tanking. That would have convinced me.

Because the arguments presented so far is not convincing, and is largely regugitated opinions that doesn't have any evidence to back up. If anybody can come up with evidence, such as consistently suspect substition patterns, quotes from insiders, etc ... I am all ears.

They are not convincing to a Spurs fan such as yourself. However, for people who watched that season, NBA analysts and GM's around the league...funny how they didn't need as much convincing as you seem to require. That's expected though of someone defending their team. I understand that.

AGAIN....I am not trying to convince you. Just stating that I don't agree with you and you have presented nothing to counter the conventional wisdom around the league at the time. I am OK with you not agreeing but find it hilarious that you cannot understand why people would draw that conclusion. AGAIN, your entitled to your opinion.

But any attempts to say that the Suns are not absolutely positively perfect is seen as a trolling attempts.

Not true. The Suns have plenty of things that can be criticized about. This teams lack of rebounding, lack of effort at times on the defensive end, Steve's rash of turnovers at critical times lately.....I could go on.

I have no issue whatsoever of people pointing out flaws with this team as long as they are willing to take those same types of comments back on their own team and have an open discussion.

 

[ambchang_]

If I hadn't seen in games where players were being pulled out in close games that shouldn't have been. If I hadn't seen the Spurs use guys at the end of the bench that wouldn't get a minute on any other squad. If I had not seen that...it would have convinced me.

If I hadn't seen several NBA analysts and quotes from GM's stating that they also believed San Antonio was tanking. That would have convinced me.

They are not convincing to a Spurs fan such as yourself. However, for people who watched that season, NBA analysts and GM's around the league...funny how they didn't need as much convincing as you seem to require. That's expected though of someone defending their team. I understand that.

AGAIN....I am not trying to convince you. Just stating that I don't agree with you and you have presented nothing to counter the conventional wisdom around the league at the time. I am OK with you not agreeing but find it hilarious that you cannot understand why people would draw that conclusion. AGAIN, your entitled to your opinion.

Of course GMs say things like that, they want Tim Duncan as well. The Spurs were decimated by injuries that season, they had to start Greg Anderson and Monty Williams because their other choices were Carl Herrera. They ahd to play Cory Alexander because the other choice was nothing. Contrary to popular belief, the Spurs were NOT a good team during Robinson's heyday. Their best starting PG since Rod Strickland was Avery Johnson, the same AJ who was cut by Houston as a 3rd string PG, their saviour was Lloyd Daniels. The only competent, start level teammates that Robinson EVER had after his rookie year and before Duncan was Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman. He had Vinny Del Negro as a starting SG for Pete's sake (who also played PG some times). Just look at the roster in 1997, there were no alternatives.

And analysts? They had agendas as much as any body, you think these people aren't fans of certain basketball teams? You think they wouldn't root for one team over another? Of course they do. The Spurs lucked out that year, there is no question about that, they had a franchise level player go down (Robinson) in a year when Duncan was coming out of college. People were thinking that it's Boston's pick.

Every single year a dominant player comes out, teams are accused of tanking, LeBron James, Greg Oden, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, the list goes on and on. Fact remains that history has shown that teams that tank don't win the lottery, and that it was a terrible strategy.

Not true. The Suns have plenty of things that can be criticized about. This teams lack of rebounding, lack of effort at times on the defensive end, Steve's rash of turnovers at critical times lately.....I could go on.

I have no issue whatsoever of people pointing out flaws with this team as long as they are willing to take those same types of comments back on their own team and have an open discussion.

Then go ahead and state those, but questioning the integrity of a team is a low blow, especially when there has been no evidence presented other than "I recalled I heard from analyst xyz" and "I saw it back then" comments. Numbers showed otherwise, history showed otherwise. Talk about the Spurs lack of rebounding outside of Duncan, talk about injuries they have, talk about the subpar defense they have played so far this year, not some off handed comments that nobody can back up.

 

[nowagimp]

I dont know why you're wasting your time here ambchang. Just about everyone here thinks the spurs are cheapshot artists that stroke the refs and flop the games away. You have convinced no one of anything here, despite dogmatically pursuing a number of arguments. Perhaps you would be happier at the spurs board, no? Or did they eat one of their own there leaving you to find new pastures?

 

[Covert Rain]

Of course GMs say things like that, they want Tim Duncan as well. The Spurs were decimated by injuries that season, they had to start Greg Anderson and Monty Williams because their other choices were Carl Herrera. They ahd to play Cory Alexander because the other choice was nothing. Contrary to popular belief, the Spurs were NOT a good team during Robinson's heyday. Their best starting PG since Rod Strickland was Avery Johnson, the same AJ who was cut by Houston as a 3rd string PG, their saviour was Lloyd Daniels. The only competent, start level teammates that Robinson EVER had after his rookie year and before Duncan was Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman. He had Vinny Del Negro as a starting SG for Pete's sake (who also played PG some times). Just look at the roster in 1997, there were no alternatives.

And analysts? They had agendas as much as any body, you think these people aren't fans of certain basketball teams? You think they wouldn't root for one team over another? Of course they do. The Spurs lucked out that year, there is no question about that, they had a franchise level player go down (Robinson) in a year when Duncan was coming out of college. People were thinking that it's Boston's pick.

Every single year a dominant player comes out, teams are accused of tanking, LeBron James, Greg Oden, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, the list goes on and on. Fact remains that history has shown that teams that tank don't win the lottery, and that it was a terrible strategy.

Then go ahead and state those, but questioning the integrity of a team is a low blow, especially when there has been no evidence presented other than "I recalled I heard from analyst xyz" and "I saw it back then" comments. Numbers showed otherwise, history showed otherwise. Talk about the Spurs lack of rebounding outside of Duncan, talk about injuries they have, talk about the subpar defense they have played so far this year, not some off handed comments that nobody can back up.

Spurs Tanked the season.

I dont know why you're wasting your time here ambchang. Just about everyone here thinks the spurs are cheapshot artists that stroke the refs and flop the games away. You have convinced no one of anything here, despite dogmatically pursuing a number of arguments. Perhaps you would be happier at the spurs board, no? Or did they eat one of their own there leaving you to find new pastures?

 

[CaptainInsano]

I dont know why you're wasting your time here ambchang. Just about everyone here thinks the spurs are cheapshot artists that stroke the refs and flop the games away. You have convinced no one of anything here, despite dogmatically pursuing a number of arguments. Perhaps you would be happier at the spurs board, no? Or did they eat one of their own there leaving you to find new pastures?

 

[ambchang_]

Thanks for proving my point by continuously giving no evidence to back up whatever you are asserting. Afterall, it is not uncommon to see kids stomp and scream when things go their way.