Poter's "new system"

[mojorizen7]

heh...heh...

That too....heh...heh

 

[SirStefan32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlkeKbStexE

 

[JS22]

Players liked playing for D'antoni...
Players dislike playing for Porter.

D'antoni last night looked like the only coach out there. Porter sat on the bench the entire game. I think I saw him once. Just tries to blend in with the crowd. Sad to watch.

The internet. Where opinions are facts.

 

[shazaam6]

DA looked exactly like he did when he was here - a whiny little bitch. Even Eddie Johnson called him out on it several times.

dude doesn't have the composure of an elite coach. he's got entitlement issues.

D'antoni mic'd up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcRnjfUt_Gw&feature=related

 

[BullDog]

Did you see how competitive the game was even with the huge gap in talent between teams? Have you noticed that DA has already got New York half the wins it had all last season with less to work with? How bout cuz DA is a winner. And don't even think about coming back with "How is he a winner? We lost in the first round last year?" Give me a break. Not everyone can win the championship every year. Jerry Sloan up until recently hasn't been able to do anything in the playoffs. Does that make him not a winner or an outstanding coach? DA got us to the western conference finals 2 out of 4 years. Don't kid yourselves. That was DA. He's a brilliant coach. He's proving it with what he's doing in New York with the roster he's been given.

Word.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Did you see how competitive the game was even with the huge gap in talent between teams? Have you noticed that DA has already got New York half the wins it had all last season with less to work with? How bout cuz DA is a winner. And don't even think about coming back with "How is he a winner? We lost in the first round last year?" Give me a break. Not everyone can win the championship every year. Jerry Sloan up until recently hasn't been able to do anything in the playoffs. Does that make him not a winner or an outstanding coach?

huh? Sloan consistently got the Jazz to the WCFs and then made 2 Finals appearances with Utah, consistently getting the most out of his teams. Then that team got old, they recycled and he got another completely different group to the WCFs. His history says he's consistently gotten it done in the playoffs at least to DA's standards and even more so.

DA got us to the western conference finals 2 out of 4 years. Don't kid yourselves. That was DA.

I'll give you the first year, but the second DA isn't what got us to the WCF, a scheduling quirk that had a 54 win team getting the 2 seed over a 61 win team is what got us to the WCF. And what about the last 2 seasons when we only won 1 playoff series? Was that not also DA? Or does he only deserve credit when we win and is absolved of all blame when we lose?

He's a brilliant coach. He's proving it with what he's doing in New York with the roster he's been given.

he's a good coach with a gimmick offense that hasn't been proven to work in the playoffs and he's a guy who can't handle big-time pressure without him flipping his lid or his team exploding when pressured. Until he gets to a Finals or at least is the HC for more than 1 contending team (and by this I mean bringing another group of players to an elite level), I think it's a stretch to call anything he's done "brilliant".

 

[Irish]

It is hard to compare any two coachs let alone these two.

First - D'Antoni had 3 1/2 months to learn about many of his players after the Marbury trade and had a long grace period afer the Frank Johnson fiasco. Porter was thrown into the deep end on day one.

Second - Since Porter was Kerr's choice and Kerr was Sarver's choice, Porter starts with two strikes against him since Sarver is so dispised

Third - most coaching changes lead to lots of disruption. It is one thing to get a weak team to change ther style, but the Suns had a lot of success with the onld system even if it failed in playoffs.

Fourth - watching video of the team is not the same as watching practice or dealing wiht the lockerroom. This has been a demanding off season and it wasn't helped when Leandro's mother got sick and Amare strruggled with injuries when he might have been getting his timing.

None of this proves Porter will be a geat coach, but it does suggest that it is too early to tell. I like what he is trying to do, but only time will tell if he can get the message across.

 

[Chaz]

he's a good coach with a gimmick offense that hasn't been proven to work in the playoffs.

In fairness his offense has been successful even in the playoffs and I am not sure I would call it a gimmick. Disciplined defenses can plan for it and you are left needing the same thing as every other offense to win a championship;
Multiple players that can create good shots or make spectacular ones.

I wouldn't call him brilliant but I would call him innovative.

 

[nowagimp]

It is hard to compare any two coachs let alone these two.

First - D'Antoni had 3 1/2 months to learn about many of his players after the Marbury trade and had a long grace period afer the Frank Johnson fiasco. Porter was thrown into the deep end on day one.

Second - Since Porter was Kerr's choice and Kerr was Sarver's choice, Porter starts with two strikes against him since Sarver is so dispised

Third - most coaching changes lead to lots of disruption. It is one thing to get a weak team to change ther style, but the Suns had a lot of success with the onld system even if it failed in playoffs.

Fourth - watching video of the team is not the same as watching practice or dealing wiht the lockerroom. This has been a demanding off season and it wasn't helped when Leandro's mother got sick and Amare strruggled with injuries when he might have been getting his timing.

None of this proves Porter will be a geat coach, but it does suggest that it is too early to tell. I like what he is trying to do, but only time will tell if he can get the message across.

regarding your 2nd point, Gary Peyton was saying last night that when the coach(DA) is chosen by the previous GM(BC), who himself was chosen by the previous owner, it almost never works. His point was that DA days here were numbered When sarver bought the team because DA was BC's guy. When BC left, DA was sure to leave earlier. This explains the short tenure for the level of success. WHen POPs took over the spurs it also took awhile and he had david and TD in the draft.

Porter unlike DA may be in a situation where he is being micromanaged. BC would not do that to his coach.

 

[nowagimp]

In fairness his offense has been successful even in the playoffs and I am not sure I would call it a gimmick. Disciplined defenses can plan for it and you are left needing the same thing as every other offense to win a championship;
Multiple players that can create good shots or make spectacular ones.

I wouldn't call him brilliant but I would call him innovative.

the DA offense has been one of the top offenses in the regular season and in the playoffs. The suns have lost due to defense, and particularly in the failure to limit offensive rebounding of opponents. You can make some arguments that this has to do with the DA offense, but David Lees rebounding is just getting better in that system and when they had randolph, they were rebounding with their opponents. Amares rebounding does not seem better with the porter coaching change. I am not convinced that the suns rebounding woes arent personnel, rather than system related. Matt barnes and JRich rebound better than Raja and Barbs in either system, yet all are SSOL-type guys.

The saunders offense has proven itself to be a mediocre offense in the post season with many piston players shooting 38-42% FG's for years. Its a predictable offense, and many teams around the league know how to defend it. The pistons defense(mainly not saunders but LB) kept them in the hunt, not the offense. When you have guys like prince, wallace, billups, hamilton mcdyess etc, your defense will be pretty good regardless of the coach. Just ask Rick Addelman how his team got to be so good defensively. Artest, Battier, Hayes, Landry, and scola are just plain good defenders.

 

[hafey]

Don't think you can give D'Antoni credit for Lee's rebounding. Not only is Lee playing more minutes this year, but there are more shots being taken in Knicks games.

 

[nowagimp]

huh? Sloan consistently got the Jazz to the WCFs and then made 2 Finals appearances with Utah, consistently getting the most out of his teams. Then that team got old, they recycled and he got another completely different group to the WCFs. His history says he's consistently gotten it done in the playoffs at least to DA's standards and even more so.

to use a popular measuring stick, the jazz havent beaten any real contenders in the playoffs since the days of stockton and malone, a long time ago, longer than DA's drought. the Jazz havent been able to beat the spurs in the last 5 years, they are worse than the suns in that area. They also were getting beat by the lakers when the lakers didnt have bynum or gasol. The warriors have done better than the Jazz recently by beating the mavs(NBA best record, NBA finals the prev year) in that comparo. And Addelmans kings teams have done better than sloanes Jazz as far as beating real contenders this decade. Just holding sloane to the same standard as suns fans hold DA, no free passes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

to use a popular measuring stick, the jazz havent beaten any real contenders in the playoffs since the days of stockton and malone, a long time ago, longer than DA's drought. the Jazz havent been able to beat the spurs in the last 5 years, they are worse than the suns in that area. They also were getting beat by the lakers when the lakers didnt have bynum or gasol. The warriors have done better than the Jazz recently by beating the mavs(NBA best record, NBA finals the prev year) in that comparo. And Addelmans kings teams have done better than sloanes Jazz as far as beating real contenders this decade. Just holding sloane to the same standard as suns fans hold DA, no free passes.

Sloan is a good coach, no doubt. But alot of good coaches have gotten fired during the time he has been coaching. His tenure is just as much to do with Salt Lake City. After all, look how long Stockton and Malone were together. Little has changed in SLC since polygamy was banned to gain statehood.

 

[nowagimp]

Sloan is a good coach, no doubt. But alot of good coaches have gotten fired during the time he has been coaching. His tenure is just as much to do with Salt Lake City. After all, look how long Stockton and Malone were together. Little has changed in SLC since polygamy was banned to gain statehood.

Yeah, LOL! The jazz did beat TMAC and the rockets, but that team has not even been close to a serious contender till perhaps this year.

 

[nashman]

Who is the Poter you guys are talking about...nice thread title.

 

[Cheesebeef]

to use a popular measuring stick, the jazz havent beaten any real contenders in the playoffs since the days of stockton and malone, a long time ago, longer than DA's drought. the Jazz havent been able to beat the spurs in the last 5 years, they are worse than the suns in that area. They also were getting beat by the lakers when the lakers didnt have bynum or gasol. The warriors have done better than the Jazz recently by beating the mavs(NBA best record, NBA finals the prev year) in that comparo. And Addelmans kings teams have done better than sloanes Jazz as far as beating real contenders this decade. Just holding sloane to the same standard as suns fans hold DA, no free passes.

Sloan also didn't/doesn't have the embarassment of riches DA had while DA was consistently losing in the playoffs. Tell me, how many MVPs, or even 1st team All-NBA guys does Sloan have on that team? DA consistently had MVPs or MVP runners up and multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd team ALL-NBA guys along with 6th men of the year.

and when DA actually does what Sloan does, which is win with two completely different units at a high level, then he can be in the discussion. Until then, he's a one Nash-trick pony.

again, to make the point abundantly clear - when Sloan had MVP players and first team players, he got his teams to the Finals twice and to the Conference Finals multiple other times. Now that he's got a different team, that isn't as talented he's STILL made them contenders.

I mean, have we ever even seen a DA beat a team they weren't supposed to beat? Have they ever beaten a higher seed team than them? I know Sloan's Jazz have the last two seasons.

there's really no comparison between those guys at this point. If DA ever gets the Knicks up and running and contending at a high level and into the Finals, then okay, he can be talked about at the same level of a Sloan or Adelman, but until then, he's on a tier below IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sloan also didn't/doesn't have the embarassment of riches DA had while DA was consistently losing in the playoffs. Tell me, how many MVPs, or even 1st team All-NBA guys does Sloan have on that team? DA consistently had MVPs or MVP runners up and multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd team ALL-NBA guys along with 6th men of the year.

and when DA actually does what Sloan does, which is win with two completely different units at a high level, then he can be in the discussion. Until then, he's a one Nash-trick pony.

again, to make the point abundantly clear - when Sloan had MVP players and first team players, he got his teams to the Finals twice and to the Conference Finals multiple other times. Now that he's got a different team, that isn't as talented he's STILL made them contenders.

I mean, have we ever even seen a DA beat a team they weren't supposed to beat? Have they ever beaten a higher seed team than them? I know Sloan's Jazz have the last two seasons.

there's really no comparison between those guys at this point. If DA ever gets the Knicks up and running and contending at a high level and into the Finals, then okay, he can be talked about at the same level of a Sloan or Adelman, but until then, he's on a tier below IMO.

Agreed. Jerry Sloan is a better coach the D'Antoni at this moment. D'Antoni is more innovative but innovative isn't the same thing. Let him get the Knicks in the playoffs every year and make them a contender (which I think he can). Then you can compare.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Agreed. Jerry Sloan is a better coach the D'Antoni at this moment. D'Antoni is more innovative but innovative isn't the same thing. Let him get the Knicks in the playoffs every year and make them a contender (which I think he can). Then you can compare.

of course, people will probably read into my post that "DA sucks and Porter's good!" because anything even somewhat nuanced isn't really paid attention to. I think DA is a good HC, I just think the jury's out on him being a GREAT HC. That kind of label can only be slapped on over a long period of time, being able to coach a bunch of different players IMO.

I mean, I saw someone call DA brilliant. Does that mean Rick Adelman, who's had more success than DA brilliant? Is Sloan brilliant?

 

[Skumbag]

They did damn well against the Lakers last night. Knicks are now my 2nd favorite team. I can't wait till DA gets LBJ and he'll get his Championship

ROFLBAMA!!!

 

[nowagimp]

Sloan also didn't/doesn't have the embarassment of riches DA had while DA was consistently losing in the playoffs. Tell me, how many MVPs, or even 1st team All-NBA guys does Sloan have on that team? DA consistently had MVPs or MVP runners up and multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd team ALL-NBA guys along with 6th men of the year.

and when DA actually does what Sloan does, which is win with two completely different units at a high level, then he can be in the discussion. Until then, he's a one Nash-trick pony.

again, to make the point abundantly clear - when Sloan had MVP players and first team players, he got his teams to the Finals twice and to the Conference Finals multiple other times. Now that he's got a different team, that isn't as talented he's STILL made them contenders.

I mean, have we ever even seen a DA beat a team they weren't supposed to beat? Have they ever beaten a higher seed team than them? I know Sloan's Jazz have the last two seasons.

there's really no comparison between those guys at this point. If DA ever gets the Knicks up and running and contending at a high level and into the Finals, then okay, he can be talked about at the same level of a Sloan or Adelman, but until then, he's on a tier below IMO.

to condense this down: No, sloane has never beat a real contender this decade in the playoffs. His team hasnt been able to beat anyone but the warriors and rockets(perenial first round exit when they do get in). While the suns have been losing to teams that win the championship or make the finals, the jazz have been losing to teams other than the warriors and rockets. As far as all NBA, amare isnt even on that team except they put him at center against the likes of much weaker competition. And we all know he is no center.

Just cut it down to the facts and its pretty simple, sloane is in Utah, because they certainly cant get any other good coach. As for sloane not having a good roster, enough all star players, I believe that Boozer, DWil, Okur and AK47 all have been all stars. I'd bet they make the suns rotation no problem.

 

[Mainstreet]

of course, people will probably read into my post that "DA sucks and Porter's good!" because anything even somewhat nuanced isn't really paid attention to. I think DA is a good HC, I just think the jury's out on him being a GREAT HC. That kind of label can only be slapped on over a long period of time, being able to coach a bunch of different players IMO.

I can agree with the above statement. I just wish DA could have had that opportunity in Phoenix.

DA was judged after only four full seasons whereas Sloan is toiling over 20+ without a Championship. To summarize my feelings about DA, I felt the Suns had four great seasons under DA and I would have liked to have kept him at least a couple more seasons to see where the team was headed. Of course in retrospect this would have been impossible with Kerr riding his back. I think you would agree that DA is trying to build something in NY with mostly scrubs and rejects in his first season there. I would really like DA to be coaching the current Suns... but nothing against Porter.

 

[nashman]

^+1 Mainstreet

 

[Cheesebeef]

to condense this down: No, sloane has never beat a real contender this decade in the playoffs. His team hasnt been able to beat anyone by the warriors and rockets(perenial first round exit when they do get in).

and this is different how from DA? DA's teams beat a perenial first round exiting Grizzly team, barely beat a perenial first round exiting Laker team twice, a 46 win one year wonder Clippers team and a solid Mavericks team who was for years a playoff pretender.

Meanwhile, we've lost 2 series in which we had HC and in two years in which we had the best record in the NBA (or were the last team with the best record in the league), we didn't even make the Finals. As opposed to Sloan, who's Jazz team have never lost a series where they were favored and actually have won series where they didn't even have homecourt.

It's called getting the most out of your talent. Something Sloan has proven he can consistently do. I don't believe the same can be said of DA.

While the suns have been losing to teams that win the championship or make the finals, the jazz have been losing to teams other than the warriors and rockets.

huh? The Suns lost to teams that win the title or make the finals, while the Jazz have what now? Been losing to teams other than the warriors and the rockets... you mean, like losing to SA and the Lakers, who won the title and went to the Finals respectively?

Just cut it down to the facts and its pretty simple, sloane is in Utah, because they certainly cant get any other good coach.

right. it has nothing to do with his winning percentage and ability to consistently get the most out of his talent.

As for sloane not having any all stars, I believe that Boozer, DWil, Okur and AK47 all have been all stars.

um, why did you change my argument here? I'm pretty sure I said 1st or 2nd ALL-NBA guys or MVPs. A lot of people make the All-Star team. It's why I didn't use that as a criteria. the 1st and 2nd team or MVPs are the elite of the elite. Sloan has NONE of those.

 

[nowagimp]

and this is different how from DA? DA's teams beat a perenial first round exiting Grizzly team, barely beat a perenial first round exiting Laker team twice, a 46 win one year wonder Clippers team and a solid Mavericks team who was for years a playoff pretender.

Meanwhile, we've lost 2 series in which we had HC and in two years in which we had the best record in the NBA (or were the last team with the best record in the league), we didn't even make the Finals. As opposed to Sloan, who's Jazz team have never lost a series where they were favored and actually have won series where they didn't even have homecourt.

It's called getting the most out of your talent. Something Sloan has proven he can consistently do. I don't believe the same can be said of DA.



huh? The Suns lost to teams that win the title or make the finals, while the Jazz have what now? Been losing to teams other than the warriors and the rockets... you mean, like losing to SA and the Lakers, who won the title and went to the Finals respectively?



right. it has nothing to do with his winning percentage and ability to consistently get the most out of his talent.



um, why did you change my argument here? I'm pretty sure I said 1st or 2nd ALL-NBA guys or MVPs. A lot of people make the All-Star team. It's why I didn't use that as a criteria. the 1st and 2nd team or MVPs are the elite of the elite. Sloan has NONE of those.

1) the suns have lost to the 4 time champion spurs, the jazz lost to??

2) changing your argument? wasnt it about the "low talent" jazz? With 4 all star caliber players it hardly looks like "low talent". Poor Sloane only has one of the top PG's, PF's, an all star center and former DPOY and all star. Poor Jerry.

#) oh yeah I forgot. Did the jazz make any noise in the playoffs after losing starters before the playoffs? No, I didnt think so. the suns have lost major pieces 3 times in the last 4 years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

1) the suns have lost to the 4 time champion spurs, the jazz lost to??

uh, they lost to the 4 time champion Spurs? Same as the Suns? And a Laker team that went to the Finals, just like the Suns lost to a Mavs team that went to the Finals.

What's your point? That both teams have lost to the same caliber of teams and done little else in the playoffs? Okay. Point made.

2) changing your argument? wasnt it about the "low talent" jazz?

um, no. can you find me where I said the jazz had "low talent". I initially asked "how many MVPs/1st or 2nd ALL-NBA teams has Sloan coached and you somehow projected on to me the notion that Sloan doesn't have good talent. Then you went on about how he has All-Stars and now you've changed it again to projecting a "low talent" comment on to me.

please, for the argument's sake, can you at least stick to what I've said and not put words in my mouth... or at least just answer this simple question.

How many MVPs does Sloan have?

How many 1st team ALL-NBA players does Sloan have

Does Sloan have a combination of MVPs and 2 1st teamers or 1 1st teamer and a 2nd teamer?

With 4 all star caliber players it hardly looks like "low talent". Poor Sloane only has one of the top PG's, PF's, an all star center and former DPOY and all star. Poor Jerry.

I'm sorry, but it's a joke to say Kirilineko's what he was and he was what? A one or two time All-Star FIVE YEARS AGO? And Okur has what? Made ONE All-Star game. He's got decent talent on that team, but again, where are the All-NBA 1st and 2nd teamers or combinations of both like DA had? Not All-Stars mind you - there's THIRTY All-Stars when all's said and done with alternates, but 1st and 2nd team All-NBA guys that DA consistently had (along with 6th men of the year, MIPs, MVPs, and All-NBA Defensive players).

#) oh yeah I forgot. Did the jazz make any noise in the playoffs after losing starters before the playoffs?

and why did the Suns lose a starter last year? It wasn't because a chronically injured player was beaten to death minutes wise and broke down at the end of the season, right? That's not on coaching at all.

And what was the excuse for 2006-7?

And teams lose starters all the time. Doesn't mean they have to get the crap beaten out of them like the 2004-5 Suns team did, especially with HC. Hell, you want to see an example of a team losing a starter and still being able to put up a fight? Just look at the 2002-3 Kings who didn't have Peja for 4 games against the Lakers. They still took LA to 7 games and into OT. They didn't curl up and died they way we did in 2004-5, losing all three games at home in the WCF.