Preseason: Suns @ Nuggets

[BC867]

Its a personnel question, not a system question.

Everything you stated is a good summary, JC.

I would add that the guys who have tried (unsuccessfully) to make it work are part of the problem, due to the inexperience of both McDonough and Hornacek in their positions as General Manager and Head Coach.

If they had produced results by choosing and training the right combination of personnel (as you referred to), it would not be a topic of conversation.

I am curious if you think that is part of the equation.

 

[Phrazbit]

But the problem is not and never has been the guard play. The "two guard system" that is being complained about is the only thing that had the team competitive the last 2 seasons. Our problem has been a very outmatched front court and sketchy options at SF.

I don't know that it will remain the same this coming season as I don't really have an opinion on Knight yet. However, the Dragic/Bledsoe pairing was well over .500 together (including last year) despite a reeeeeeally bad lineup around them.

 

[Errntknght]

But the problem is not and never has been the guard play. The "two guard system" that is being complained about is the only thing that had the team competitive the last 2 seasons. Our problem has been a very outmatched front court and sketchy options at SF.

I don't know that it will remain the same this coming season as I don't really have an opinion on Knight yet. However, the Dragic/Bledsoe pairing was well over .500 together (including last year) despite a reeeeeeally bad lineup around them.

It's true that the guard play did not hold us back but saying the 'two guard system' played a positive role is wrong - it turned into a disaster last year. Opinions vary on how much of the responsibility rests on Hornacek and McD failing to get everyone in concert and how much on the 'system' they were implementing. But, however you slice it, its on them. I think there is potential for further disenchantment in our new starting front court though it might remain below the surface for a while. In any case, they have not looked like a 26 million dollar backcourt thus far but the sample size is miniscule so I'm not giving up hope.

 

[JCSunsfan]

But the problem is not and never has been the guard play. The "two guard system" that is being complained about is the only thing that had the team competitive the last 2 seasons. Our problem has been a very outmatched front court and sketchy options at SF.

I don't know that it will remain the same this coming season as I don't really have an opinion on Knight yet. However, the Dragic/Bledsoe pairing was well over .500 together (including last year) despite a reeeeeeally bad lineup around them.

That is partly true. But with two of Bledsoe, Dragic, and Isaiah Thomas on the floor at almost all times last year, it was going to be somewhat hard to even know how good the front court would have been. The forwards had to drift out to the three point line just to get a touch. The guards wanted the lane for themselves.

I think the concept is good, but there is a guard problem. First, Bledsoe does not run often enough. He walks the ball up way too much. Second, Knight has to shoot better or he and Bledsoe cannot complement Bledsoe very well. I would think that if you are starting to build with Bledsoe, your second guard needs to be a highly proficient shooter, be able to distribute, and having some defensive size would be nice--although Bledsoe can guard much larger players because of his strength and wingspan.

Actually, if Booker has decent ball-handling ability and becomes a good passer, he could be the ideal backcourt mate for Bled.

 

[Catlover]

That is partly true. But with two of Bledsoe, Dragic, and Isaiah Thomas on the floor at almost all times last year, it was going to be somewhat hard to even know how good the front court would have been. The forwards had to drift out to the three point line just to get a touch. The guards wanted the lane for themselves.

I think the concept is good, but there is a guard problem. First, Bledsoe does not run often enough. He walks the ball up way too much. Second, Knight has to shoot better or he and Bledsoe cannot complement Bledsoe very well. I would think that if you are starting to build with Bledsoe, your second guard needs to be a highly proficient shooter, be able to distribute, and having some defensive size would be nice--although Bledsoe can guard much larger players because of his strength and wingspan.

Actually, if Booker has decent ball-handling ability and becomes a good passer, he could be the ideal backcourt mate for Bled.

Bledsoe definitely needs to push the pace. The coach wants him to, his teammates want him to, he had a year and a half of watching Goran get easy points doing it and his skill set seems perfect for it? I have no idea why he doesn't do it routinely.

My concern with Knight is that his ankle still hasn't fully healed and according to him it's limiting his game. I don't know why we're not resting him until he's able to go full speed. I don't know if it's hurting his shot too but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Errntknght]

Bledsoe definitely needs to push the pace. The coach wants him to, his teammates want him to, he had a year and a half of watching Goran get easy points doing it and his skill set seems perfect for it? I have no idea why he doesn't do it routinely.

My concern with Knight is that his ankle still hasn't fully healed and according to him it's limiting his game. I don't know why we're not resting him until he's able to go full speed. I don't know if it's hurting his shot too but it wouldn't surprise me.

I have enough faith in our trainers to think they've recommended that Knight play. Its not uncommon for guys to have a mental problem getting past a fairly serious injury even when they are physically fine. He may well take time to feel like he's good to go all out. I also trust that they will stop him playing if he favors the ankle to the point he will over stress something else.

As far as Bledsoe goes, I think he wants to play 32+ minutes a game and he simply cannot do that and go all out all the time so he has to pick his spots. Goran seemed able to sprint endlessly on offense but he conserved energy on defense more than Bled does - and Eric isn't going all out on D even at that.

 

[Catlover]

I have enough faith in our trainers to think they've recommended that Knight play. Its not uncommon for guys to have a mental problem getting past a fairly serious injury even when they are physically fine. He may well take time to feel like he's good to go all out. I also trust that they will stop him playing if he favors the ankle to the point he will over stress something else.

As far as Bledsoe goes, I think he wants to play 32+ minutes a game and he simply cannot do that and go all out all the time so he has to pick his spots. Goran seemed able to sprint endlessly on offense but he conserved energy on defense more than Bled does - and Eric isn't going all out on D even at that.

All of this makes sense. I think we'd be better off though if Bledsoe was going 30 minutes all out rather than 35 paced.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is part of Steve Nash's skill set that is easy to miss. He was an incredible endurance athlete. He played full out (especially on offense) for 35 minutes plus at times. Goran did that too. Bled's effort on defense might keep him from playing full out on offense. A body can do only so much. Even with less minutes, they still have to find a way to pace themselves on the court. I think this is part of why they want two pg's. Someone should always be able to push the ball.

 

[BC867]

I think this is part of why they want two pg's. Someone should always be able to push the ball.

And of course the best way to achieve that is to have one backup the other, totaling 48 minutes of solid Point Guard play, rather than have them wearing down on the court together.

And to have a third Point Guard who accepts his role as strength in reserve at the end of the bench so we always have at least two healthy facilitators in the lineup.

It would also eliminate the problem of who is the alpha Point Guard which has caused various trades and rebuilding.

In the long run, it wore Steve out because he was so unique. No one could run his system. But no Guard on our roster is as unique as Steve was, so that should not be a problem for the Suns.

Maintaining a 5-man substitution pattern, with each unit fulfilling its own style, would have been the solution for Steve but even that was difficult to maintain and was short lived.

So what you said, two Point Guards, someone always able to push the ball, is the best (and lasting) approach. The questions is who can achieve that in the long run. Two tweener Guards on the court for most of the game or a skilled Point Guard backed up by a skilled Point Guard?

 

[JCSunsfan]

And of course the best way to achieve that is to have one backup the other, totaling 48 minutes of solid Point Guard play, rather than have them wearing down on the court together.

Actually, no, that doesn't work. You cannot call timeouts or have stoppages for substitutions enough to accomplish this. Players have always had to slow down to breath on the court. Anyone who has played basketball knows this. You can't sprint all the time, and playing defense right is like sprinting too.

The idea of of two players on the court who can push the ball is sound. It allows for better offense AND defense if the personnel is right.

 

[BC867]

Actually, no, that doesn't work. You cannot call timeouts or have stoppages for substitutions enough to accomplish this. Players have always had to slow down to breath on the court. Anyone who has played basketball knows this. You can't sprint all the time, and playing defense right is like sprinting too.

The idea of of two players on the court who can push the ball is sound. It allows for better offense AND defense if the personnel is right.

Then we need the right personnel. Two lead Point Guards who can put their egos aside. So far, they haven't found it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Then we need the right personnel. Two lead Point Guards who can put their egos aside. So far, they haven't found it.

That we know of yet.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Warriors were able to run a fast paced offense with a starting lineup of Curry, Klay, Barnes, Green and Bogut..

I don't see 2 PGs there.

I don't think 2 combo "point" guards are necessary to run a fast paced offense.

Of course Warriors actually know how to score in the half court too, something Hornacek has been trying to figure out for much of his career.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Warriors were able to run a fast paced offense with a starting lineup of Curry, Klay, Barnes, Green and Bogut..

I don't see 2 PGs there.

I don't think 2 combo "point" guards are necessary to run a fast paced offense.

Of course Warriors actually know how to score in the half court too, something Hornacek has been trying to figure out for much of his career.

???? Horny could score in the half court as a player, the Jazz could score in the half court, and the Suns now can score in the half court. Not sure what this means. The problem with Bledsoe is that he is more of a half court player than a "run the break" pg.

Now Goran could run the break, but wasn't that effective in the half court.

I just don't know where comments like this come from.

 

[Phrazbit]

???? Horny could score in the half court as a player, the Jazz could score in the half court, and the Suns now can score in the half court. Not sure what this means. The problem with Bledsoe is that he is more of a half court player than a "run the break" pg.

Now Goran could run the break, but wasn't that effective in the half court.

I just don't know where comments like this come from.

When you're trying to make everything fit a specific narrative facts don't matter so much.

Its also worth noting that the Warriors may not have started two "point guards" but there were several occasions where they used three at the same time during the playoffs. In the finals their 2 primary reserves were both PGs.

 

[sunsfan88]

???? Horny could score in the half court as a player, the Jazz could score in the half court, and the Suns now can score in the half court. Not sure what this means. The problem with Bledsoe is that he is more of a half court player than a "run the break" pg.

Now Goran could run the break, but wasn't that effective in the half court.

I just don't know where comments like this come from.

Says who?

And I'm not talking about Hornacek as a player, couldn't care less. Talking about him as a coach.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Says who?

And I'm not talking about Hornacek as a player, couldn't care less. Talking about him as a coach.

I agree

Based on his body of work thus far in Phoenix it appears his coaching skills are that of a shooting coach, like he was in Utah. He obviously is not very good at that either, in that his team finished last in the league in 3 point percentage after the trade deadline. If memory serves me right we were last or near last in assisted buckets as well. I do not know what our offensive plan was, I think it was a secret to the players as well.

If we get a steal for a wide open layup Horancek's offense is really good.

I cannot wait to see who he makes worse this season.

Once he lost Goran and IT last year while marginalizing Green our offense was downright pitiful.

Who's to blame. Obviously either the players or GM, not this coach.

He can do no wrong in this town.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Such evaluations based on one year with an absolutely dysfunctional roster.

I really wonder why I bother to read sometimes.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hornacek isn't Popovich but he won 48 games with a roster that was designed to tank.

Contending for the playoffs while starting dudes like Tucker, Green and Plumlee, all of them acquired either as "take this guy... please!" trades or off the trash heap.

I wish he'd have mixed up the playing time a bit more last year, especially regarding Warren, but to look at the team's record since his arrival in comparison to the "talent" on the roster and to come away with the idea that their lack of a playoff birth is on the coaching is absurd.

 

[Chaz]

Hornacek isn't Popovich but he won 48 games with a roster that was designed to tank.

Contending for the playoffs while starting dudes like Tucker, Green and Plumlee, all of them acquired either as "take this guy... please!" trades or off the trash heap.

I wish he'd have mixed up the playing time a bit more last year, especially regarding Warren, but to look at the team's record since his arrival in comparison to the "talent" on the roster and to come away with the idea that their lack of a playoff birth is on the coaching is absurd.

They were a couple of close losses out of the 6th spot for a lot of the first half of last year before the chemistry and leadership issues completely imploded around the all star break.
To hear some people describe it you would think they are the worst team in the league.
I think both coach and GM have made mistakes but neither have been horrible given they are both new to the job and rebuilding with a young roster.

 

[JCSunsfan]

When you look at the roster that they had when they started, both have done a great job. The IT signing was a mistake--that was universally praised by fans and pundits alike. I do not remember anyone panning the Marcus signing. Some mistakes were made. The mark of a great GM is not whether he makes mistakes or not--they all do--but rather how stubborn he is in not admitting and correcting them.

 

[slinslin]

When you look at the roster that they had when they started, both have done a great job. The IT signing was a mistake--that was universally praised by fans and pundits alike. I do not remember anyone panning the Marcus signing. Some mistakes were made. The mark of a great GM is not whether he makes mistakes or not--they all do--but rather how stubborn he is in not admitting and correcting them.

The IT signing was not a mistake.

We got him cheap and eventhoug we traded him way too cheap we still got an expiring contract and a first round pick for him.

That is a net plus.

Also IT was our best player most likely for the majority of the first half of the season.

Furthermore we were playing above .500 ball which is more than what could have been expected.

 

[Chaz]

The IT signing was not a mistake.



We got him cheap and eventhoug we traded him way too cheap we still got an expiring contract and a first round pick for him.



That is a net plus.



Also IT was our best player most likely for the majority of the first half of the season.



Furthermore we were playing above .500 ball which is more than what could have been expected.

I understand what you are saying. His signing didn't hurt them long term and they may have even turned it into an eventual net plus but anytime a player you just signed as a multi-year FA gets traded that first season for a player you didn't want to keep, it is a sign of correcting a mistake.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The IT signing was not a mistake.

We got him cheap and eventhoug we traded him way too cheap we still got an expiring contract and a first round pick for him.

That is a net plus.

Also IT was our best player most likely for the majority of the first half of the season.

Furthermore we were playing above .500 ball which is more than what could have been expected.

Fair enough. It was bad for team chemistry though. That locker room was a mess last year.

IT, Goran wanted to be the starters and ball handlers, yet Bledsoe was given the ball.

Plumlee though he should start over Len and asked for a trade.

Markieff and Marcus were behaving like thugs inside and outside the locker room.

IT seemed to be the trigger for all that. But as far as having a net player/pick plus, sure.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Such evaluations based on one year with an absolutely dysfunctional roster.

I really wonder why I bother to read sometimes.

MDA never gets the benefit of the doubt you give to your boy, Hornacek.

I hope we have a great season and are fun to watch. I have my doubts just like most of the experts.

I guess if the team loses it falls on the GM or the players for not doing their job.

If the team wins then it is great coaching by Hornacek.

He is not even close to earning that respect from me at this point.