Pro Bowl Alternate at Tackle: LEVI BROWN

[Catfish]

Obviously the player and coaches, the men whose careers are on the line every week, think Levi Brown is worthy of the recognition. I will take their opinion any day over that of fans.

I am with you Dan: ----- In my opinion, far too many fans are of the belief that a good OT allows NO sacks, and always hears the snap count. Levi has been underappreciated here, (but then so was Leonard Davis). Remember, it was not the rest of the league that was down on him, but our own fans. He played as well as he could (wherever that coaching staff assigned him). Levi has done the same. He HAS BECOME the run-game mauler that everyone thought he could be. He is decent in the pass-protect scheme, (despite), the protests of many who never played or coached the position. He still has upside, and seems to get better each year, (again despite protests from people who have never been in his shoes). I for one, celebrate his appointment to the alternate squad, and I thank him for his contribution to our effort this year.

 

[lauraw]

So is this for real? Did he really make the Pro Bowl as an alternate?

 

[TJ]

Why do you insist on making ignorant comments when it comes to Levi? You say he can't put together a good game yet he has had many good games! Especially the 4 game stretch in the playoffs last year where he was stellar! You act as though you have never seen a cards game with comments like that.

Reference your earlier comment where could you put him? I would say anywhere but center. There is no doubt in my mind he is more physically gifted than Wells, Lutui and Gandy. Not to mention the left side is his natural position!

Having him protect Kurts blind side would be no worse than Gandy IMO and likely better being his natural position that he dominated at Penn State.

Btw Nice post cbus!

Apparently, we are watching two separate people. And I'm not alone in my opinion of Levi underachieving as his lack of production has stuck out like a sore thumb for too long. Personally, I don't understand why so many people are just now to his defense after ripping him apart for years. My basic opinion is that I dont see how he can even be in the Pro Bowl conversation even as an alternate when he is not even the best lineman on the team.

Furthermore, how can my comments be ignorant if they are substantiated by facts? Shane Ive respected you for years, but right now I think you are being asinine. Christ, let me have a differing opinion without being labeled "ignorant."

Back to the point.....For years, Levi has been one of the most penalized linemen in the division and up there in the conference. We also watch as he lets pass rusher after pass rusher release off the right edge and smack Kurt in the mouth with Levi only able to look back at him. Way too many times does Levi get turned parallel to the sidelines, which means he is getting beat the majority of the time.

You and I can agree that he is a physical specimen and probably stronger than any of our interior linemen; however, he does not seem to be able to transfer his physical prowess into game speed. There is a classification for athletes like Levi. They are called "training champions." They excel in every facet of the game during practice, weight lifting, etc.; yet when it comes to game time, they lose focus, make careless mistakes and do not possess the mental component to shrug those mistakes off and focus on the next play.

Levi is like a Corvette without an engine. Looks great on the outside, has all of the potential of going fast; but is missing that one piece to make it all go.

If Levi were able to transfer the talent that made him the #5 pick overall back onto the field, Id love the guy to death. But at this current moment, he plays like a journeyman lineman.

 

[ajcardfan]

So is this for real? Did he really make the Pro Bowl as an alternate?

Technically, he's not a Pro Bowler. He's an alternate.

But, if there is an injury, or someone is in the Super Bowl, he would replace them. Then, he would be a Pro Bowler. That's how Dockett got his first Pro Bowl last year.

We should all note Leonard Davis is a Pro Bowler as well. He was picked as an alternate twice when he was a Cardinal. So, I'd have to agree conventional board wisdom is not all that wise in regards to oline play. I used to think Cards fans were the worst at judging running backs. Now, i think I'm changing my mind.

 

[Shane]

Apparently, we are watching two separate people. And I'm not alone in my opinion of Levi underachieving as his lack of production has stuck out like a sore thumb for too long. Personally, I don't understand why so many people are just now to his defense after ripping him apart for years. My basic opinion is that I dont see how he can even be in the Pro Bowl conversation even as an alternate when he is not even the best lineman on the team.

Furthermore, how can my comments be ignorant if they are substantiated by facts? Shane Ive respected you for years, but right now I think you are being asinine. Christ, let me have a differing opinion without being labeled "ignorant."

Back to the point.....For years, Levi has been one of the most penalized linemen in the division and up there in the conference. We also watch as he lets pass rusher after pass rusher release off the right edge and smack Kurt in the mouth with Levi only able to look back at him. Way too many times does Levi get turned parallel to the sidelines, which means he is getting beat the majority of the time.

You and I can agree that he is a physical specimen and probably stronger than any of our interior linemen; however, he does not seem to be able to transfer his physical prowess into game speed. There is a classification for athletes like Levi. They are called "training champions." They excel in every facet of the game during practice, weight lifting, etc.; yet when it comes to game time, they lose focus, make careless mistakes and do not possess the mental component to shrug those mistakes off and focus on the next play.

Levi is like a Corvette without an engine. Looks great on the outside, has all of the potential of going fast; but is missing that one piece to make it all go.

If Levi were able to transfer the talent that made him the #5 pick overall back onto the field, Id love the guy to death. But at this current moment, he plays like a journeyman lineman.

I think when you say that Levi can't even put together one good game you are being ignorant. If you would prefer a softer word to appease you by all means suggest one and I will use it in the future.

However you say what you are saying is substantiated by fact? How so? How can you factually prove that Levi hasn't put one good game together?

I can certainly and factually show games in his history which he hasn't either been penalized or given up a sack. I can show you a game where he hasn't given up a sack against a premier pass rusher etc.. etc.. if I care to do the research.

Nobody is saying that Levi is perfect or that he doesn't need to be more consistent. HE ABSOLUTELY DOES! AT TIMES he has been down right pathetic. That can't really be argued. He is what he is a supremely talented OL who A. Either is unmotivated and has mental lapses. or B. Is playing out of position.

It is obvious that NFL coaches including a HOF caliber OL and OL coach like him tremendously. It is also obvious that other players in the league respect his talents as shown by the alternate selection.

When you make comments like your "can't put together one good game" you are being overly hateful and it comes shining through.

 

[Perfectionist]

Hopefully, all our players are still playing (Sperbowl) and will not be able to attend the probowl, starter or alternate.

 

[cardpa]

I really would like to see Levi play on the left side to see how he does. I still think he wold play better on that side.

 

[Duckjake]

Technically, he's not a Pro Bowler. He's an alternate.

But, if there is an injury, or someone is in the Super Bowl, he would replace them. Then, he would be a Pro Bowler. That's how Dockett got his first Pro Bowl last year.

We should all note Leonard Davis is a Pro Bowler as well. He was picked as an alternate twice when he was a Cardinal. So, I'd have to agree conventional board wisdom is not all that wise in regards to oline play. I used to think Cards fans were the worst at judging running backs. Now, i think I'm changing my mind.

This is why I don't like Levi Brown. Even though, like Calvin Pace, its not his fault. But as a fan I get to do that: The Cards let Leonard Davis go, passed on All Day among others, to draft Leonard Davis.

Don't forget that the conventional wisdom on ASFN concerning LD was that he should be playing Guard.

I also don't see how Cards fans could be the worst at judging running backs. You didn't have to be Vince Lombardi to tell that Marcel Shipp, Michael Pittman, Leland McElroy, Ron Moore, Chuck Levy, Anthony Thompson, and Tony Jeffery were not elite NFL running backs. Hearst was hurt and Tjones had attitude problems in the AZ.

Well I take that back. Maybe we couldn't judge running backs because we hadn't seen a decent one in 30 years.

Duckjake's Cardinal history lesson of the week: Since 1960 the Cards have drafted 8 running backs in the 2nd round of the draft. Not one of them was a success in the NFL.

 

[Brighteyes]

I've always wondered if one of our OLD problems (as in does not exist anymore) was not that we were so horrible in draft selections, but horrible at developing talent. Very few players are going to step out of college into the NFL and fly high without a little coaching.

 

[Hollywood]

I've always wondered if one of our OLD problems (as in does not exist anymore) was not that we were so horrible in draft selections, but horrible at developing talent. Very few players are going to step out of college into the NFL and fly high without a little coaching.

I think it was both. When you are not going to pay well you will not get the top tallent in the scouting and coaching dept. It is no coincidence that once the stadium was built the team has spent more money in those and other areas which contributed to its success.

 

[TJ]

I think when you say that Levi can't even put together one good game you are being ignorant. If you would prefer a softer word to appease you by all means suggest one and I will use it in the future.

However you say what you are saying is substantiated by fact? How so? How can you factually prove that Levi hasn't put one good game together?

I can certainly and factually show games in his history which he hasn't either been penalized or given up a sack. I can show you a game where he hasn't given up a sack against a premier pass rusher etc.. etc.. if I care to do the research.

Nobody is saying that Levi is perfect or that he doesn't need to be more consistent. HE ABSOLUTELY DOES! AT TIMES he has been down right pathetic. That can't really be argued. He is what he is a supremely talented OL who A. Either is unmotivated and has mental lapses. or B. Is playing out of position.

It is obvious that NFL coaches including a HOF caliber OL and OL coach like him tremendously. It is also obvious that other players in the league respect his talents as shown by the alternate selection.

When you make comments like your "can't put together one good game" you are being overly hateful and it comes shining through.

I don't remember saying that he's never had a good game. Actually, I didn't say that. You might be getting that from my "training champions" reference, but I never said he hasn't ever been good. To summarize what Ive tried to convey, he is extremely inconsistent and makes downright boneheaded mistakes. This is why I dont like him.

I highlighted the portion of your post with which I agree. If you noticed, my argument circles around his mental make up and mental toughness. He has all the tools to be great, but lacks something between the ears to make him good. There have been many players like him that have been drafted high, paid big money, then fizzle out and become "busts." Im afraid its hard for me to not categorize him as such.

Like I said, if he gets his **** together Ill be the first in line to put him in the PB.

 

[az jam]

Obviously the player and coaches, the men whose careers are on the line every week, think Levi Brown is worthy of the recognition. I will take their opinion any day over that of fans.

Best statement on this thread.

 

[bg7brd]

I am with you Dan: ----- In my opinion, far too many fans are of the belief that a good OT allows NO sacks, and always hears the snap count. Levi has been underappreciated here, (but then so was Leonard Davis). Remember, it was not the rest of the league that was down on him, but our own fans. He played as well as he could (wherever that coaching staff assigned him). Levi has done the same. He HAS BECOME the run-game mauler that everyone thought he could be. He is decent in the pass-protect scheme, (despite), the protests of many who never played or coached the position. He still has upside, and seems to get better each year, (again despite protests from people who have never been in his shoes). I for one, celebrate his appointment to the alternate squad, and I thank him for his contribution to our effort this year.

Excellent post!!!

 

[Totally_Red]

If Levi is a pro-bowler even a 4th alternate, the quality of NFC offensive tackles is in serious decline. Walter Jones is on IR and Orlando Pace is always hurt. Bryant McKinnie was named to the pro-bowl and he looked terrible on Monday night. The better offensive tackles(Ryan Clady, Joe Thomas, etcetera) are in the AFC right now IMO.

 

[Big D]

I think a lot of the frustration fans feel with Brown is that he was drafted in the top 5 yet he really hasn't had the impact that you hope for from someone drafted that high. You look over to the AFC and see Joe Thomas and Jake Long STARTING in the pro bowl at T as top 5 picks while playing on inferior teams and you wonder why our guy isn't quite playing at that level with more talent around him. Throw in Brown being basically the same player Leonard Davis was when he was here as Duckjake pointed out and it is cause for frustration with a lot of fans.

Personally I think Brown is pretty decent. Certainly not great but he isn't a bad player either. He is better than probably 75% of the rest of the tackles in the league so I guess that is decent enough. For being drafted so high though I just wish he was better player, that's all.

 

[SECTION 11]

Ata boy Levi! Dude is totally underrated on here.

 

[ajcardfan]

This is why I don't like Levi Brown. Even though, like Calvin Pace, its not his fault. But as a fan I get to do that: The Cards let Leonard Davis go, passed on All Day among others, to draft Leonard Davis.

Don't forget that the conventional wisdom on ASFN concerning LD was that he should be playing Guard.

I also don't see how Cards fans could be the worst at judging running backs. You didn't have to be Vince Lombardi to tell that Marcel Shipp, Michael Pittman, Leland McElroy, Ron Moore, Chuck Levy, Anthony Thompson, and Tony Jeffery were not elite NFL running backs. Hearst was hurt and Tjones had attitude problems in the AZ.

Well I take that back. Maybe we couldn't judge running backs because we hadn't seen a decent one in 30 years.

Duckjake's Cardinal history lesson of the week: Since 1960 the Cards have drafted 8 running backs in the 2nd round of the draft. Not one of them was a success in the NFL.

I'm with ya Duck. Remember, Davis actually started at RT for us for a time. At the time, I argued in favor of keeping Davis and drafting Peterson. Had we kept Davis, and signed Gandy, he could've moved to the right side or Gandy could've played RT.

The reason I thought that about running back evaluation is that Cards fans would get so excited about these marginal talents. Most of whom did jack squat like you said. Then, when we did get a real talent, like Jones or Hearst, they would get skewered like pigs at a luau.

 

[Shane]

I don't remember saying that he's never had a good game. Actually, I didn't say that. You might be getting that from my "training champions" reference, but I never said he hasn't ever been good. To summarize what Ive tried to convey, he is extremely inconsistent and makes downright boneheaded mistakes. This is why I dont like him.

I highlighted the portion of your post with which I agree. If you noticed, my argument circles around his mental make up and mental toughness. He has all the tools to be great, but lacks something between the ears to make him good. There have been many players like him that have been drafted high, paid big money, then fizzle out and become "busts." Im afraid its hard for me to not categorize him as such.

Like I said, if he gets his **** together Ill be the first in line to put him in the PB.

No you didn't use the word "never" but in post #20 in the thread you stated he didn't have "the mental make up to put together A GOOD GAME" when in fact he has done it many times!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

If that's the case, find a position for him. Unfortunately, you cant put him anywhere else besides guard and the $64 question is "is he better than Wells or Lutui?" Im not so sure. And I don't think he'd succeed at LT. Imagining him on Kurt's blindside gives me nightmares. He has been underwhelming his entire career with Arizona.

Chastise my comment about him being in the league all you want, but the guy is the weakest link on the line IMO. Penalties, mental lapses and half assed effort does not win brownie points in my book. I read Sando's blog about penalties all the time and he seems to always be in the conversation.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that he is not pro bowl material, and when I saw this, I thought it was April Fools day.

If by "all" you mean almost everyone who is neither a player or coach, then you are on to something.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Here is why the perception of Levi Brown is distorted. He was picked #5 behind one of the best OL to come into the league in a decade (whom we all wanted) and BEFORE one of the greatest RB's of our time (his present slump nonwithstanding). Levi is an AVERAGE player. That's irrefutable. LIke Shane mentioned he has games where he looks good especially in run blocking, but far too many times he doesn't look very good.

So look at it this way. He is about as good as Gandy and Wells, although not as consistent as Wells. But shouldn't that be a disappointment? He was the #5 pick for gods sakes. We shouldn't be expecting that he is on the same level as a guy given a no signing bonus/incentive based/ low price contract (Gandy) or a guy picked in the 4th round (Wells). He should be out performing them by a mile and the cornerstone of our line.

He was drafted under the premise that we were going to turn into the Steelers West and then Wiz realized what we had in Warner, Fitz, and Boldin. So Levi's true value won't be recopgnized until we turn into a true run first team. The same complaints were made about Steelers OL the last 5 years (see how much Big Ben gets sacked the past 3 years) and its because of how they are drafted and the common coach (Grimm).

So is Levi a Pro Bowl alternate every few years? Maybe. But he rarely dominates a game which I think is a disappointment considering where he was drafted. He will never be viewed through the same context as the other OL because of his where he was picked and what he is being paid.

He SHOULD be held to a higherstandard.

And PB alternate nominations don't mean all that much other then this was a down year for NFC tackles and Levi was one of the better of a bad bunch. When Morey gets picked over a guy like LSH you know there is a flaw in the process.

 

[Totally_Red]

Here is why the perception of Levi Brown is distorted. He was picked #5 behind one of the best OL to come into the league in a decade (whom we all wanted) and BEFORE one of the greatest RB's of our time (his present slump nonwithstanding). Levi is an AVERAGE player. That's irrefutable. LIke Shane mentioned he has games where he looks good especially in run blocking, but far too many times he doesn't look very good.

So look at it this way. He is about as good as Gandy and Wells, although not as consistent as Wells. But shouldn't that be a disappointment? He was the #5 pick for gods sakes. We shouldn't be expecting that he is on the same level as a guy given a no signing bonus/incentive based/ low price contract (Gandy) or a guy picked in the 4th round (Wells). He should be out performing them by a mile and the cornerstone of our line.

He was drafted under the premise that we were going to turn into the Steelers West and then Wiz realized what we had in Warner, Fitz, and Boldin. So Levi's true value won't be recopgnized until we turn into a true run first team. The same complaints were made about Steelers OL the last 5 years (see how much Big Ben gets sacked the past 3 years) and its because of how they are drafted and the common coach (Grimm).

So is Levi a Pro Bowl alternate every few years? Maybe. But he rarely dominates a game which I think is a disappointment considering where he was drafted. He will never be viewed through the same context as the other OL because of his where he was picked and what he is being paid.

He SHOULD be held to a higherstandard.

And PB alternate nominations don't mean all that much other then this was a down year for NFC tackles and Levi was one of the better of a bad bunch. When Morey gets picked over a guy like LSH you know there is a flaw in the process.

That is my opinion. He's very average. Meaning he'll have an occasional decent game against the dregs of the NFC West like the Rams and the currently struggling Seahawks.

But when he runs into above average and elite defensive ends, he will(and does) get dominated. So pull out the Rams game and use that as evidence that he's a pro-bowler. Most NFL right tackles would look good when the opponent has lost most of the defensive line including Leonard Little and you are blocking the sisters of the poor.

 

[TJ]

If by "all" you mean almost everyone who is neither a player or coach, then you are on to something.

I meant as an ASFN fan base, yes

 

[TJ]

No you didn't use the word "never" but in post #20 in the thread you stated he didn't have "the mental make up to put together A GOOD GAME" when in fact he has done it many times!

This I cannot agree with. "Many times" is an overstatement. If that were the case, we'd have a hard hitting reliable **** on the right edge and he wouldnt get nick names on this board like "False Start" and "the other guy cursed with the #75 jersey." As alluded to by other posters, he is average at best. But sometimes, he looks like a bum. I cannot stand when one person, especially a lineman, can singlehandedly ruin an offensive drive for us.

Most of my posts are a direct reflection of how many people feel about Levi and to be honest with you, I dont understand how just a few weeks ago we were all throwing stones at him and all of a sudden people are doing an about face.

Maybe the coaches and the players perceive it differently. But as die hards, we have every right to feel the way we feel about players, both positive and negative. For example, I know you love Anquan Boldin to death and so do I. But what I notice is that you take it personally when someone throws out the "trade Q" blog. To be honest with you, Levi Brown and his lack of production are a point of contention for me and I feel that more times than not he brings this team down.

Now lets all sing Kumbaya and end this debate.

 

[Carddan]

TJ, you over estimate the displeasure with #75 from the fan base as a whole. Some are so outspoken and critical that the more passive and those who avoid conflict keep quiet on the subject to avoid the confrontation. I am convinced you are wrong in your opinion. The Players and Coaches in the NFL agree with me. Give it up, hate the Cowboys and 49ers. Give MY Lineman a break.

 

[Duckjake]

TJ, you over estimate the displeasure with #75 from the fan base as a whole. Some are so outspoken and critical that the more passive and those who avoid conflict keep quiet on the subject to avoid the confrontation. I am convinced you are wrong in your opinion. The Players and Coaches in the NFL agree with me. Give it up, hate the Cowboys and 49ers. Give MY Lineman a break.

I disagree with this as proof of anything. I'd be most players and coaches in the NFL couldn't name even half the starting offensive linemen on the teams outside their division.

Heck Buddy Ryan probably didn't know the names of any of his OWN offensive players.