Realistic view of CB situation

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wa52lz

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So the Packers can win the Super Bowl w/ UDFAs, 5th yr and rookie, as their #'s 2 and 3 CB's, but there is no chance that the Cardinals can compete w/ a rookie who was the 5th pick overall, A 6th year vet who was a 2nd round pick and has 42 starts and a 2nd yr UDFA?
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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So the Packers can win the Super Bowl w/ UDFAs, 5th yr and rookie, as their #'s 2 and 3 CB's, but there is no chance that the Cardinals can compete w/ a rookie who was the 5th pick overall, A 6th year vet who was a 2nd round pick and has 42 starts and a 2nd yr UDFA?

Um....Charles Woodson aka one of the best corners in the league, Clay Mathews aka one of the best pass rushers in the league? If we had those two players it would change the defense dramatically. I dont even know how you can compare the two defenses honestly.
 

wa52lz

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Um....Charles Woodson aka one of the best corners in the league, Clay Mathews aka one of the best pass rushers in the league? If we had those two players it would change the defense dramatically. I dont even know how you can compare the two defenses honestly.
Who is comparing defenses? I thought that the premise of this thread was that the Cardinals have the worst CB's in the NFL? I'm saying that it's possible that players develop and improve, why can't that happen to our CB's, its an awful early to be calling them the worst CB group and to kiss the season goodbye.
 

Jetstream Green

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I will just say this, I do not think our pass rush is going to suck. Forgive me if like fans from other teams, I have a belief that the young players will get better from last year. I think we had a good draft. I do not believe last year defines players like Dockett or Campbell because they have more to judge them in a good light for this coming year then basing ones opinion totally on last year. And fans of their respective team will always view their team in a better light because your a freaking fan of that team and it does pose a question if a third party where to view this site and what they would think of fans dumping on other fans for being positive about their team. I think the darkside is a stupid name for a negative view of the team, it is more like the homeless people on the street carrying signs that the end is near than something as grand as the Vader legions lol. BTW, it is also interesting to view the names which people go by on a forum, it reveals a lot about their personality and what they think in relation to the forum they are on.
 

azfan43

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I just don't see the reasoning to be that deflated, man.

PP is a rook but gosh darn it, he just scored a legit pick 6 of Philip Rivers in his third pre-season game, his first time playing against the first stringers. But he is going to be great someday? He at the very least can be good THIS year. DRC broke the starting line up his first year, didn't he? The year we made it to the ship.

AJ Jefferson has given no reason for anyone to think he is just a nobody. How many CBs have we had that had this many pass deflections in a pre-season? He has been victim of some tough penalties I must say as well.I personally have not seen anyone break on a hitch route this consistently to bat away this many passes. Now he may not transfer it into regular, but gee it at least gives some form of positive hope, right?

Richard Marshall was a 2 year starter for Car and had 7 picks in that time. Plus his tackle #s far outshine that of DRC in the same time period.

I am one of those who also firmly believe Mike Adams can be serviceable as the #4 CB. Heck, even Green showed some ability out there.

DRC is GONE. Toler is done for the year. We have to remain positive and support the guys that are going to be here and play this year. There is nothing realistic until Sep 11. We will know more then.

Have any of our top CBs this year been badly beaten deep so far this preseason? I know PP gave up a TD but are there any others? I am not sure about this but gee I haven't seen us getting torched through the air real badly.

I was impressed with the D against SD. For this main reason. Watch first two preseason games. Rivers and company moved up and down the field at will against the opposing D. Our Cards never gave a big play and converged well on the intermediates and we were well in position to win, if it were regular season, against a QB who is considered the 3rd best QB in the game.
 
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Black T

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I never said you were wrong Beavis, I said your posts suck. It's not a lack of football knowledge, it's the way you go "drama queen/Captain know it all" when you post such ridiculous things. The defense has lost some key guys and it sucks, like your posts.The football topics get lost because your talking sideways the whole time, stating the obvious over and over again while using it as a platform to go after other posters. I can talk football with most anybody, but you don't just talk football, you talk ****. I don't see us seeing eye to eye (me being so blinded and all), so I'll be on my way now, stay up homie.

Thats the second time youve posted in this thread, and its just as irrelevant as the first.

"I can talk football with most anybody, but you don't just talk football, you talk ****. "

thats ironic because I started this thread talking football, you came in talking trash about me (not football) and came back later to again comment (not about football, again).

So i await your next comment where you state how you just wanna talk football, and say nothing about football. Say something about how my user name is 'Black' T and therefore im doom and gloom. Because 'Black' indicates negativity?



I just don't see the reasoning to be that deflated, man.

PP is a rook but gosh darn it, he just scored a legit pick 6 of Philip Rivers in his third pre-season game, his first time playing against the first stringers. But he is going to be great someday? He at the very least can be good THIS year. DRC broke the starting line up his first year, didn't he? The year we made it to the ship.

AJ Jefferson has given no reason for anyone to think he is just a nobody. How many CBs have we had that had this many pass deflections in a pre-season? He has been victim of some tough penalties I must say as well.I personally have not seen anyone break on a hitch route this consistently to bat away this many passes. Now he may not transfer it into regular, but gee it at least gives some form of positive hope, right?

Richard Marshall was a 2 year starter for Car and had 7 picks in that time. Plus his tackle #s far outshine that of DRC in the same time period.

I am one of those who also firmly believe Mike Adams can be serviceable as the #4 CB. Heck, even Green showed some ability out there.

DRC is GONE. Toler is done for the year. We have to remain positive and support the guys that are going to be here and play this year. There is nothing realistic until Sep 11. We will know more then.

Have any of our top CBs this year been badly beaten deep so far this preseason? I know PP gave up a TD but are there any others? I am not sure about this but gee I haven't seen us getting torched through the air real badly.

I was impressed with the D against SD. For this main reason. Watch first two preseason games. Rivers and company moved up and down the field at will against the opposing D. Our Cards never gave a big play and converged well on the intermediates and we were well in position to win, if it were regular season, against a QB who is considered the 3rd best QB in the game.

See, thank you for your thought out and valid argument.

I have acknowledged this entire time that the season has not began yet and the roster is not complete. If the season were to start today - my post would be in affect. OR if no such changes are made and PP and AJ truly are our starters, it would still be in affect.

The DBs have looked suitable in preseason, but id argue preseason offenses are extremely dumbed down. I assure you its not going to be that easy to defend on gameday. And also keep in mind PP and AJ were defending 2's and 3's because Toler was on the #1 WR. Move PP and AJ up to the 1s and 2s and it may look a little more daunting. Maybe then we will see the burn plays.

PP int was beautiful, but it was 1 time. That doesnt make up for every other time he has, or will get beat. Its same as the AZ v GB wildcard game where Mike Adams got absolutely obliterated. I thought that guy was going to cry right there on the field they were picking on him so bad. Granted he got the game winning forced fumble, but had it not been for that FF, he wouldve been an outcast. Fans wouldve been demanding his head. PP cant be DRC. Get burned 10 times then get a pick. thats counter productive. PP will be great someday, will he be 'good' this year? Theres a possibility, of course. But a good CB on their #1 will only be shooting 50%.

More concern goes to the #2. Now I would hope PP is the #1. If AJ is the #1 then all hope is lost. As high as some of you are on him, the reality is he would get man handled by a #1. If you dont believe me: imagine AJ Jefferson lining up across from Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Chad 85, Michael Crabtree, Sydney Rice, Jennings, etc. Tell me he wouldnt get smoked like no other.

Put him #2 and he might stand a better shot, but not by much. #2s are very good in this league. If he catches a slow one, i think he might do a good job. But what if he draws Braylon Edwards when we face SF? He will get outclassed like no other. AJ is just not good enough to be a starter in the NFL right now. Could he be good someday? Sure, but its not right now.

Also keep in mind other teams offensive coordinators will be well aware of our troubles at CB. Ither they know PP has a tendency to turn his back to the QB or that AJ is easily fooled by double moves, they will exploit those flaws to the fullest extent.
 

187

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Our defense gave up 20ppg with DRC and McFadden, Ralph Brown, and Mike Adams in 09 FFS. We aren't dead in the water, you get way to up/down with anything involving the team. If Toler didn't get hurt we would have been at least middle of the pack, no standouts but solid 1-3 and even 4. You can't predict injuries. You can't go out and sign Jonathan Joseph or Antonio Cromartie when you end up giving Fitz $120M. Feel free to go through this list and find me a guy you'd be happy with that isn't getting $7M+ a year.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2011/fa/db.html

There aren't any. We will see how cuts go and move on from there.

Obviously pressure is needed to help protect young cb's and I am hoping he can bring it with his schemes like Rex does because they don't have any elite pass rushers on that squad and can find ways to get to the QB. Obviously they have the Revis advantage, but it can be done. The Browns gave up around 20ppg last year with no elite pass rushers, a secondary that was made up with a rookie SS, a rookie CB, a nobody at FS, a past his prime Sheldon Brown, and Eric Wright who looked promising earlier in his career and has proceeded to suck it up ever since. At the least our secondary can equal theirs. Joe Haden started off a bit slow and took off in the second half of the season and there is no reason why PP can't do the same. DRC was the same story as a rookie.

Saying that AJ Jefferson sucks when he hasn't even played a regular season is jumping the gun quite a bit, the kid has made great plays on the ball throughout the preseason and is always getting his head around to spot the ball. Will he bite on some double moves? Yeah, all young corners do. Tramon Williams was an UDFA and got some playing time as either a nickel or dimeback as a rookie and then took off in his second year and on. Just because you don't get drafted doesn't mean you can't make an impact. Most of the times I remember AJ getting completed on is when he is playing 10 yards off the ball and they throw a quick pass, he then comes up and sticks the guy for a short gain. That's part of the scheme, not because he sucks. I think if anything he can end up being a decent contributor and not a complete liability like McBadden was. AJ's preseason has impressed me quite a bit. He got burnt deep in one game and came back on I think the very next play and broke up a pass in the endzone. I don't think he's going to be an all pro, but I think we will be bad either.

We are far from dead in the water and I am far from pressing the panic button at this point in time. It's easy to sit here and armchair GM, but if Toler doesn't go down cb is far from our biggest worry. Sh*t happens. We lose one cb and you go into meltdown 'season is over' mode. You'd be on suicide watch if you were a Giants fan right now after they lost what, 4 corners? If anything you should be bitching about our lack of elite talent at OLB, because if we had anything resembling a decent pass rush this wouldn't be as big of a problem.
 
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RugbyMuffin

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I blame the Cardinals staff 100% for this problem. Newsflash, losing Toler was NOT the beginning of this. Going into the season with Toler as a #1 showed how weak the depth was.

When we drafted PP, and still had DRC, it was assumed Toler would be our #3 CB...Dudes our #1 this year? We've been SOL this entire time and it drove me crazy that nobody recognized that. No moves to go get a corner. Yeah we got Marshall who barely qualifies. Knock on wood, what if PP goes down? Screwed doesnt begin to describe the situation.


So im totally depressed ATM with the outlook of this season. WE wont be able to stop anyone through the air. Think of our pass D last year and multiply it by like 12, thats how bad this is going to be if we dont go find somebody. There is someone on this earth whos available and could do a good job. If you gotta go up to the CFL, fine, just find him. If we go into the season with Jefferson/PP/Marshall/Adams as our starters..we will probably have another lotto pick next year. If you dont think so than your naive and blinded by your fanship. This is a pass first league, and we wont be able to do a thing about it.

Well, how about some names and options ?

I respect your concern but where are the solutions ?

Do the Steelers have all-world conerbacks ? The Ravens ?

I don't see how the Cardinals could sign all these players in the offseason and be under the cap.

Just saying, the situation definately looks bleak when it comes to what is on paper. I am not ready to toss away a season before the team plays game 1.

After last year ? This team looks great. :D

Edit: Whoops, see 187's post, he puts it much better than I did.

Some people are not "All or nothing fans" where 2nd place is just as bad as 0-16. Meaning just because the team is not going to the Super Bowl doesn't mean they will give up on a season, or are going to be doom and gloom about everything.

I for one will be happy with something around 8-8. Having a non-double digit losing season, and being competitive is what I am hoping for this year. While that may be hell on earth for other people, I be good with it.

Finally, I don't see the need to instigate. You call someone blind, they call you condesending and arrogant, and then you are fighting some internet tough guy match, instead of talking football. Plus people can be blind with hate, as much as blind with rainbows and gumdrops. Just let the haters hate. :D
 
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Cbus cardsfan

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I agree our CB's are questionable but when you factor in the schedule and the division we play in, it's not so bad. Seattle and SF are in the bottom 3 of the NFL with their QB situations. St.Louis has a new system and no legit WR's so the Cards CB situation is good enough to win the NFC West. It's going up against elite passing teams like GB, NO, NE and SD where the Cards will struggle. The good thing is they won't meet any of those until the playoffs and almost any team will struggle to slow down those offenses. Look at the Cards schedule and they face, maybe 2 top 10 passing teams all year in Philly and Dallas. The rest of the schedule is pure crap when it comes to passing offenses:
Carolina: DA made the team
Seattle twice:Tavarius, worst QB in the league
SF twice:Smith 2nd worst QB in the league
Washington: WW material in Beck and Grossman
Cincy: rookie
Cle: McCoy show potential but we'll see if he can play more that 2 game without getting hurt
Minn: McNabb is done

Then you have good teams that are more run oriented in:
Balt: Flacco is so over-hyped it's funny
Pitt: Ben can light up any team
NYG: Nicks is their only WR threat
Stl twice: they have potential, but, quick, name their starting WR's.

Then you have two good passing teams in Dallas and Philly. However the Cards usually step up and play well against Dallas.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I don't think this year is even as bad as it has been when you look at some of the defensive backfield combos we have thrown out there:
2007: Rod Hood/Eric Green/Terence Holt all started
2005: Robert Tate/ David Macklin/ 42 year old Robert Griffith
2004: Renaldo Hill/ Ifeani Ohalete :eek: at safety.
 

RugbyMuffin

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I don't think this year is even as bad as it has been when you look at some of the defensive backfield combos we have thrown out there:
2007: Rod Hood/Eric Green/Terence Holt all started
2005: Robert Tate/ David Macklin/ 42 year old Robert Griffith
2004: Renaldo Hill/ Ifeani Ohalete :eek: at safety.

Terence Holt. LOL

Oh man he was terrible.
 

Crazy Canuck

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The most 'realistic' approach you can make, without any bias or kool-aid...This defense was ranked 29th overall last year, and 23rd in passing, specifically, since that's the topic of coversation. The cards lost 2 starting CB's, and a starting SS. 'Realistically' speaking, the replacements aren't near as good as their predecessors, which, logically, would tell you the defense will be worse than the previous year. There were no pass rushing improvements made, which makes the situation even more suspect. Realism at it's finest :)

It's still projecting the unknown based on an interpretation of the known.

I have no idea as to how this "D" will play when the real bullets start filling the air.... and neither does anyone else.

Doom and gloom or unbridled optimism are both fallacies.
 

Duckjake

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I don't think this year is even as bad as it has been when you look at some of the defensive backfield combos we have thrown out there:
2007: Rod Hood/Eric Green/Terence Holt all started
2005: Robert Tate/ David Macklin/ 42 year old Robert Griffith
2004: Renaldo Hill/ Ifeani Ohalete :eek: at safety.

This reminds me of when we'd yell "Your team is worse than ours!" at the Lions fans. :)

The 3 top CBs in '04 had 13 years experience between them going into the season.

PP21 and AJ Jefferson have about 13 weeks.

Those teams also lost 29 games.

It weird though to watch guys like Duane Starks who had 20 interceptions for the Ravens and Ohalete who had 7 in 3 years with the Redskins come to Arizona and not do much.

Those were the days when as soon as the Cards would sign a player he'd grow 10 thumbs and 2 left feet.
 
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CardShark

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It's still projecting the unknown based on an interpretation of the known.

I have no idea as to how this "D" will play when the real bullets start filling the air.... and neither does anyone else.

Doom and gloom or unbridled optimism are both fallacies.

Totally Agree!!!
 

Cheesebeef

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It's still projecting the unknown based on an interpretation of the known.

I have no idea as to how this "D" will play when the real bullets start filling the air.... and neither does anyone else.

Doom and gloom or unbridled optimism are both fallacies.

agreed. we should just shut down the message board until the regular season happens.

or just limit everyone's posts to "let's just see what happens." that would make conversation much more interesting.
 

Zeno

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Thread should be titled, "My view of the CB situation" because in reality we don't know where it will turn out, much like pretty much everything else on the team aside from Fitz.

This whole season is built on hope...HOPE our CBs play adequate, HOPE we develop a pass rush, HOPE Kolb plays like an upper echelon QB, HOPE Beanie can handle the load as a starting RB, HOPE all our 2nd and third year players make a big improvement.

I honestly think this team can be anywhere from 6-10 to 10-6 based on the schedule and how our young players, new additions and new coaches perform. We won't know what we have until about a month in to the season.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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.

Doom and gloom or unbridled optimism are both fallacies.
I had doom and gloo along with unbridled optimism in the same post.

I said our DB's stink(gloom) but so do the QB's we play against(optimism) and we'll win the division(optimism) but will likely get destroyed in the playoffs(doom). :D
 

RugbyMuffin

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agreed. we should just shut down the message board until the regular season happens.

or just limit everyone's posts to "let's just see what happens." that would make conversation much more interesting.

Agreed.

My thoughts on the 2ndary is wait and see, but that is just me. Some positions I am not in wait and see mode.

The offensive line, and NT for instance are still somthing I think I can gauge. The 2ndary is so banged up that I have really no clue. Well, more than usual
 

Crazy Canuck

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agreed. we should just shut down the message board until the regular season happens.

or just limit everyone's posts to "let's just see what happens." that would make conversation much more interesting.

Do as you see fit.
 

cardpa

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I don't think this year is even as bad as it has been when you look at some of the defensive backfield combos we have thrown out there:
2007: Rod Hood/Eric Green/Terence Holt all started
2005: Robert Tate/ David Macklin/ 42 year old Robert Griffith
2004: Renaldo Hill/ Ifeani Ohalete :eek: at safety.

Thanks Cbus you had to go and bring those nightmares up. Now I won't be able to sleep for a week. ;)
 

THESMEL

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Well Mighty Mouse Money Mike Adams would never make another team, maybe as ST?

Weve kept him 3 years and signed him for 2 more. He was our pass rush against GB like 6 woooshes than the OT game winner in the 09 playoffs.

I don't know Whiz is still keeping pets, But when a starter gets hurt. Adams rarely defends a pass.

Yea we are screwed.
 

CardsFan88

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Al Jefferson has been playing good this preseason. While it's preseason, if he can continue it, I wouldn't fret about his position.

As for PP...who knows? He's shown flashes and dumb moves. But how many td's have been thrown against him this preseason? 1? Maybe 2? I only remember one, and that was a back shoulder throw that even Deion couldn't of covered.

I don't think our CB play has been that bad. If you also factor in what happens during run play, our cb's have done quite well in this aspect. Our cb's as a group are going to be much better tacklers this year.

I'm going to give AJ and PP a chance. They're young, they're talented, and they've given up 0 regular season td's so far.

Maybe they turn out to be 'the worst'. But I doubt it. Even then, is worst in yards the worst? Or points the worst? Because quite frankly there's lots of useless metrics that anyone can point to and 10 teams are 'the worst' at pass coverage given one of those.

pp7 should be better than drc. He already is a better and more willing tackler.
While toler looked good this season, Jefferson has looked as good as any 2nd cb I've seen on the cards in a long time.

If someone sucks, I'll say they suck. But pp7 and jefferson have done enough so far for me at this point to say they don't look like they suck.

Marshall is new too. While he may have sucked at Carolina, I don't know the specifics of what he was asked to do. He is plenty physical, and can tackle. So I feel very confident (much, much more so) than last year in terms of our cb's and tackling in the run game, or after short catches.

He was seen as an up and comer his first year, but then the whole bottom fell out of carolina, and I doubt he was responsible for that. He might have been a partial reason, but it's hard to tell. Sometimes people look at stats far too much. We'll know if that particular worst cb stat was right in a few games or a year. The stat itself is meaningless right now, as all singular stats without proper context are useless. ALL. We'll see now whether or not this is a stat that holds water with HIM or NOT. Because these stats really are hit and miss. You can't bank on them with 0 games played, and not such a bad showing in preseason games.

Cornerbacks get beat. They get beat quite often. Even good ones. A player's rep can allow them to not get tested, but when a cb is regularly thrown to, passes are completed.

I'm going to wait before passing judgement, because these guys have actually shown some good play, and PP is a potential star.

Also what was our pass defense when we went to a superbowl..22nd?...so why does this even matter? You can have relatively bad pass coverage 'statistics wise' and get to the superbowl.

It's just a bit silly imo to get all party pooped out because of a string of obscure statistics. Of the statistic of the statistic of the statistic.

Right now it is too early to tell, and even if it turns out we DO have the worst, no one legitimately knows NOW that we do. It's only a guess. Maybe the guess is right, maybe it's wrong. But it's a guess like all the rest.
 
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