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AZCB34

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Well done Stout. Once again, without a shred of evidence and no source to quote, you drag out the tired old line that some unnamed scout had to beg Graves to draft Bolden.

Find a credible source for once in your life and put it here. Otherwise, have some class for a change and quit quoting internet rumor as fact. My guess is you'll fail at both. You have a long track record of baseless accusations.

And cbus, you choose to ignore half of what I write. I have clearly stated way back in this thread that IMO Rod Graves is responsible for many of the good things that have happened in the Cards organization for the last few years. I cannot prove them. But it is not just that I think Rod Graves is just a nice guy. I think he is competent in his job and have often stated so.

But you, and about six others choose to belittle me by misrepresenting my statements and those of anyone else who disagrees with you about Graves. I just like Graves because "he's a nice guy." Way to go to suggest I'm dumb and shallow. Thanks cbus, how does it feel to go through life being so intellectually superior to anyone else?

You don't like Rod. We get it. Over and over and over ad infinitum. You are free to continue to bash. I just figured it was time someone told you it gets boring and beating it to death doesn't make you right.

I'm through letting you and Stout and a few others spew your vitriol unchallenged. That's my fault for letting it happen. And no, I'm not trying to chase you away. You are Cards fans. It's just from now on, when someone rips the Cards using crappy unverifiable sources, it won't go unchallenged.

Welcome to 2007. We are all in this together and we all hope it gets better. By the way, I will ban myself for two weeks after the super bowl for repeatedly insulting posters.

To be fair Skkorp, it was pretty widely known that at the time Boldin was drafted, it was Tyke Tolbert (the Cards WR coach at the time) who pressured (begged?) the Cards to draft Boldin when he was still there when it came time for their choice. I am not going to try and find any back up for it because I just don't care enough to and for all we know, Graves was on board with it and others in the decision-making process that draft day wanted to go another way.

While I disagree with nidan's assertation that it takes longer to evaluate a GM than a coach, I am in the camp of, it is Graves job and he seems to have been decent at evaluating talent and as much a AJ complains about what I am going to say, I am hopeful that Graves has now learned how to properly wield his evaluation abilities and make the proper picks.
 

40yearfan

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I'm sorry, 40, but where do I say that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with it's current crop of players? I have said that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with Graves as VP football operations, but you can put as many words into my mouth as you need to, I guess.

I think that the players on the roster deserve better leadership and support from the front office, and seasons with a 6-10, 5-11, 5-11 record illustrate that the front office, where Rod Graves has sole responsibility, has failed to give that support to guys like Anquan Boldin and Adrian Wilson, and I think that it's just a shame that Graves is still going to be in place and failing to give these guys support for another three years while the primes of their careers are wasted.

It's obvious that if you bring in a new GM and HC, there will be a complete turnover. They are going to want their own coaching staffs and will purge the existing players just like DG did until they get the people they want. That's a 3 year rebuilding process. Maybe you have the patience for this, but I surely don't.

Wilson and Boldin both got contract extensions. How is that not supporting them? Are you saying the losing record is completely the front office's responsibility?
 
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Sandan

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Go for it Skkorp, I've given up trying to get some folks to seperate their unsubstainiated opions from fact.

I also love how all the drafting problems back to Tobin were his fault even though he was not the GM at that time.

Probably RG's biggest mistake was in not vetoing some of DG's moves. I suspect he has learnt from that experience. A GM is supposed to take a long term view, not short term, that's whay they typically outlast a given HC

note: As I can't be bothered to type out his actual title I will just use GM as that is what he is.
 

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For what its worth on drafting Boldin:

The guy who really wanted him was the receivers coach at the time. He had been a coach at Florida and and remembered Boldin from his tenure there.

However, to suggest because of that Graves didnt like Boldin, or was going to pass on him is silly. That same story noted they considered him in the first round, but had Johnson rated higher (like virtually all of the 31 other teams).

In the draft process -- individual scouts and position coaches are asked their POV all the time. Isnt that how its supposed to work?

Graves/Mac/etc listened to a guy with near first hand knowledge of a draftee and made the right call. Again, isnt thats how it supposed to work.

The idea that drafting is some grand all-knowing personnel guy sitting by himself and making calls is naive.
 
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Sandan

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While I disagree with nidan's assertation that it takes longer to evaluate a GM than a coach,

I think the point here is that if you don't give a GM a reasonable expectation of a longer tenure, then he will always be looking for short term fixes as a head coach will be.

In that situation you have nobody looking out for the long term prospects as they feel their job is dependant on results today.
 

Skkorpion

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Pretty widely known? How do you know this? Oh yeah, you don't care enough to back it up.

Come on cubby, this isn't like you so I give you a pass.

Hope your Bears get killed but only by Seattle. Rather Bears in the SB than any NFC team other than Seattle.
 

AZCB34

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Pretty widely known? How do you know this? Oh yeah, you don't care enough to back it up.

Come on cubby, this isn't like you so I give you a pass.

Hope your Bears get killed but only by Seattle. Rather Bears in the SB than any NFC team other than Seattle.

BRICKER: No speed? Boldin's flying
Published September 24, 2003


Mel Kiper, the draft guru, missed on this one, but there's no shame there. Just about everyone, including to a lesser degree the Arizona Cardinals, misjudged Anquan Boldin.

"His speed is a question mark, only running in the 4.7 range," Kiper had said as he sized up the college draft of wide receivers.

"With that said, there's definitely a place at the pro level for a guy like Boldin -- probably as a second or third option in the receiving game."

How laughable is that? The former Florida State receiver from Pahokee has caught 23 passes for 378 yards. Both totals are new highs for an NFL rookie's first three games.

The 23 receptions beat the 21 catches made by tight end Earl Cooper of San Francisco in his first three games in As a barometer, Jerry Rice had nine catches for 196 yards in the first three outings of his rookie season in 1985, and Randy Moss caught 15 passes for 221 yards in his first three NFL games in 1998.

The same questions about Boldin's speed came up in the Cardinals' predraft meetings until receivers coach Tyke Tolbert, who was an assistant at Florida last season, stepped in: "I told them, `Trust me. Do not worry about this man's 40 time. He plays faster than the clock.'

"I've watched him since he was playing in high school in Pahokee. I saw him playing for Florida State when I was an assistant to Terry Bowden at Auburn. I know that after just three games he's wowing people. But nothing he has done surprises me."

Boldin was drafted No. 54 in the second round, passed over by everyone in the first, including the Cards, who took another receiver, Bryant Johnson of Penn State, at No. 17, and defensive end Calvin Pace of Wake Forest at No. 18.

A few weeks ago, Boldin told reporters how his coaches at Pahokee High, where he played quarterback, walked him through coverages, explaining not just where to throw the ball but why to throw it in certain situations and when. He took such quarterbacking wisdom and applied it to receiving.

"I don't know about the learning curve or how fast you're supposed to learn. I just have to tip my hat to the coaches," he said.

Wide receivers and quarterbacks are not supposed to have this sort of instant success because of the complex nature of their positions. It's not like lining up Jevon Kearse or Julius Peppers at defensive end and telling them, "Go get the quarterback."

Boldin caught for 217 yards in his opening game, though of course the Lions are not a good team defensively.

But he came back with eight catches for 62 yards against the Seahawks, and then, on Sunday, had five receptions for 99 yards vs. the Packers.

His speed is functional -- a lot like Rice's.

Like his predecessor at the Cardinals, David Boston, he is an oversized receiver at 6 feet 1 and 218 pounds. He blocks well enough to have put Lions defensive end Robert Porcher on his backside. And his route running is ultra-precise.

What can he still improve on?

"He can do everything a little bit better," Tolbert said. But there are no holes in his game. He runs every route and is particularly effective over the middle, where the catches are more difficult but where there is more opportunity to break for a long gain after the catch.

He is the constant target of quarterback Jeff Blake, who has thrown him an average of 12 passes a game because of Arizona's depleted receiving corps.

Staying in on virtually every offensive down can be wearing, and Boldin has to concentrate in the fourth quarter on making his cuts more precise rather than rounding them off -- a sure sign of fatigue.

Arizona has a wealth of plays designed for Boldin, including passes off reverses. He could also be an emergency quarterback, having stepped in for coach Bobby Bowden in the Sugar Bowl against Georgia.

He throws an extremely tight spiral ("as tight as Blake's," says Tolbert), but, surprisingly, he never grips the ball by the laces. "I've talked to him about that," Tolbert said. "He says he just doesn't feel comfortable with that."

No one is going to try to change him. All they want from Boldin is for him to keep doing what he's doing
 

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BTW--

I am almost certain the source for the Tyke Tolbert thing was the NFL films rookie feature done on Boldin (and Leftwich and a tackle with the Giants) -- Tolbert talked about how he was telling everyone who would listen how they had to get this guy.

Somehow that has morphed to include how the rest of the organization wasnt going to draft him.


Edit:

darn that CB-- faster than me again
 

AZCB34

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http://floridastate.scout.com/2/108070.html

At the urging of Tyke Tolbert, the Arizona Cardinals new receivers coach and Florida's ex- recruiting coordinator, Anquan Boldin was chosen by the Cardinals in the second round.

He was the first Florida State player drafted, the 54th overall selection.

"(Tolbert) and I talked the other day and he told me that if I was available they were going to take me, and he held true to his word," said Boldin, a fourth-year junior, who opted to forego a final year of college eligibility.

"It feels good to be somewhere where you are wanted," Boldin said. "They (Cardinals) just lost three receivers and they are looking for me and whoever else to come in and contribute right away." For the first time in seven years, FSU did not have a player chosen among the top 50 overall selections. Defensive end Tony Bryant was chosen in the second round (Oakland Raiders) of the 1999 draft (40th overall) -- the only time since 1996 when the
 
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Sandan

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That hardly consitutes 'begging', he was just saying the guy is a better prospect than the numbers suggest.

That this was said isn't in question. What is however, is the imp;lication is that the Cardinals were to stupid to see this guy was a stud and 1 lone voice had to beg to get him considered.
 

Russ Smith

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Go for it Skkorp, I've given up trying to get some folks to seperate their unsubstainiated opions from fact.

I also love how all the drafting problems back to Tobin were his fault even though he was not the GM at that time.

Probably RG's biggest mistake was in not vetoing some of DG's moves. I suspect he has learnt from that experience. A GM is supposed to take a long term view, not short term, that's whay they typically outlast a given HC

note: As I can't be bothered to type out his actual title I will just use GM as that is what he is.

Here's the rub for both Nidan and Skorp. Can either of you actually tell us what Graves was responsible for the last few years? You keep saying that people are blaming him for things without evidence, or not giving him credit for things he did. The reality is most of us have no clue what he did and that's intentional the Cards are always vague about that.

It's hard to fault people for "guessing" when there's no clear cut way to actualy know what he did. Just like how to this day we don't really know why we drafted Jones over Alexander or Urlacher, we've all heard rumors about who made that decision and the rumors never agree and are always different. The Cards for years have intentionally clouded over job descriptions so that nobody outside of them has any idea who does what.
 

kerouac9

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It's obvious that if you bring in a new GM and HC, there will be a complete turnover. They are going to want their own coaching staffs and will purge the existing players just like DG did until they get the people they want. That's a 3 year rebuilding process. Maybe you have the patience for this, but I surely don't.

Wilson and Boldin both got contract extensions. How is that not supporting them? Are you saying the losing record is completely the front office's responsibility?

What's this based on, 40year? In Tampa, the Bucs brough in a new HC (Gruden) and GM (Allen) and they kept the roster mostly continuous for the next several seasons, especially on defense. In Seattle, they brought in two new GMs in Ferguson and the guy they have now (his name escapes me) and maintained pretty solid continuity, building on the foundation without dismantling the team. In Atlanta they brought in a new HC in Jim Mora and a new GM in Rich McKay, and have kept a core group of guys together on both sides of the ball.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your baseless speculation, or anything. I think we all know that you don't watch football other than the Cardinals, anyway. So how would you know how the rest of the NFL operates unless Rod Graves or Michael Bidwill tells you so?

Besides, this team hasn't won more than 7 games in almost a decade now. Who's to say that starting from the ground (Boldin, Fitz, Leinart, Dockett, Wilson, Hayes, Dansby) up wouldn't be the best idea? If anything, Rod Graves biggest problem has been over-valuing the talent on the roster. Guys like Raynoch Thompson, L.J. Shelton, and Scott Player have not been shown to be worth the extentions given to them.
 

Russ Smith

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That hardly consitutes 'begging', he was just saying the guy is a better prospect than the numbers suggest.

That this was said isn't in question. What is however, is the imp;lication is that the Cardinals were to stupid to see this guy was a stud and 1 lone voice had to beg to get him considered.

So the Cards knew he was a stud but picked Johnson and Pace in the first round gambling Boldin would still be there at 54?

I doubt even Tolbert thought Anquan would be THIS good, but come on, it's pretty clear the opinion on him wasn't unanimous or he wouldn't have been the 2nd WR we picked.
 

AZCB34

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That hardly consitutes 'begging', he was just saying the guy is a better prospect than the numbers suggest.

That this was said isn't in question. What is however, is the imp;lication is that the Cardinals were to stupid to see this guy was a stud and 1 lone voice had to beg to get him considered.

While I cannot prove in any way Tolbert had to "beg" for Boldin, you cannot in any way prove the Cards brain trust that year wasn't stupid enough to see the guy was a stud and one person had to rise up to be heard.

Since none of us were present in meetings and on draft day we don't really know but it appears as though Tolbert certainly applied enough pressure to get the decision made.

No matter how it came about, Graves should get credit for the pick because there was a point where he, as the ultimate decision-maker, had to pull the trigger...and he did.
 

RedStorm

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Maybe it's just me...but having coached football myself...and knowing what an emotional game it is...I just can't imagine how a coach can stand idly on the sidelines with virtually NOTHING to share with the players...NO EMOTION AT ALL>>>NOTHING.


Tom Landry comes to mind. I would think he was pretty successful. Wouldn't you???

The biggest beef I have is that we just validated Graves by a contract. He will now pull more weight with the new coach. To take a quote from someone else..."he now has capital and he is going to spend it...". And, quite frankly, I do not trust Graves when it comes to evaluating talent. He should negotiate contracts and manage the cap but leave the draft and talent evaluation to someone else.
 

Brian

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That hardly consitutes 'begging', he was just saying the guy is a better prospect than the numbers suggest.

That this was said isn't in question. What is however, is the imp;lication is that the Cardinals were to stupid to see this guy was a stud and 1 lone voice had to beg to get him considered.

My god Nidan, admit when you are wrong.

This all started because:

1) Some folks support Graves.

2) Others said he's inept when it comes to drafting.

3) Group A mentions "Well, you have to give him credit for the Boldin pick".

4) Group B is saying "You can't give him credit for that, it is widely known he had very little to do with the pick"

5) Group A says " Blah, blah, blah...you have no proof and are only saying that because you dislike Graves"

6) Group B gives proof and now we are at "Yeah, well......so."

Watch the ESPN show on Anquan and Leftwich's rookie year called "Hey Rook" You can see for yourself that TOLBERT was in large part for the selection and yes he in fact did NEARLY BEG.



Until Graves has a good draft that isn't oversadowed by Green he can only be measured by the trading down debacle.

Nuff said.
 

Skkorpion

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Thank you very much, cubby, for finding and posting that article. It's the first I've seen of it and it clears up a lot. Clearly the Tolbert story had real legs.
 

40yearfan

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What's this based on, 40year? In Tampa, the Bucs brough in a new HC (Gruden) and GM (Allen) and they kept the roster mostly continuous for the next several seasons, especially on defense. In Seattle, they brought in two new GMs in Ferguson and the guy they have now (his name escapes me) and maintained pretty solid continuity, building on the foundation without dismantling the team. In Atlanta they brought in a new HC in Jim Mora and a new GM in Rich McKay, and have kept a core group of guys together on both sides of the ball.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your baseless speculation, or anything. I think we all know that you don't watch football other than the Cardinals, anyway. So how would you know how the rest of the NFL operates unless Rod Graves or Michael Bidwill tells you so?

Besides, this team hasn't won more than 7 games in almost a decade now. Who's to say that starting from the ground (Boldin, Fitz, Leinart, Dockett, Wilson, Hayes, Dansby) up wouldn't be the best idea? If anything, Rod Graves biggest problem has been over-valuing the talent on the roster. Guys like Raynoch Thompson, L.J. Shelton, and Scott Player have not been shown to be worth the extentions given to them.

Typical K9. Argue with my assumption of you wanting a total turnover and then turn around and say it isn't a bad idea after all. Might as well cover all your bases, eh. That way you can always come back and say I told you so.

Do you ever make a statement and then stick by it? Never mind, I already know the answer.

BTW, if you only keep 7 guys, that means you need to replace 46 players. If you don't consider that to be a total rebuild, you are smoking some pretty strong whacky. Also, what has R. Thompson/L.J. Shelton got to do with anything current? Living in the past again. What was wrong with the Player extension? He's better than a lot of other kickers in this league. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Most people learn by their mistakes, but according to you they are ruined for life.
 
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I keep asking the same question. Who was responsible for the Cardinals not adequately addressing the OL problems for three years. Does not the GM bear some responsibility for this failure?
 

40yearfan

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I keep asking the same question. Who was responsible for the Cardinals not adequately addressing the OL problems for three years. Does not the GM bear some responsibility for this failure?


Depends on your position. Some people say we don't have adequate talent for the OL so that would put it on the GM for not getting different people. Some people say we have the talent, but they were playing in the wrong positions. That would put it on the coach for not playing the right person in the right position. Since the OL has played much better the past 5 games or so, I would tend to be in the latter category, but an argument can be made for either side.
 
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Sandan

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So the Cards knew he was a stud but picked Johnson and Pace in the first round gambling Boldin would still be there at 54?

I doubt even Tolbert thought Anquan would be THIS good, but come on, it's pretty clear the opinion on him wasn't unanimous or he wouldn't have been the 2nd WR we picked.

My point is simple Russ.

RG haters here bring this up over and over again. Like the Cardinals were so stupid as to let Q fall to the 2nd round [like thge rest of the nfl]. Then the only reason we got him is that the Tolbert got down on his knees and begged them to take him.

The obvious point here that the people who say this are trying to make is that all the bad decisions we made in that draft are his fault and none of the good ones.

It sounds to me like whoever was running that draft listened to the Tolbert as he had some additional information. So if it was RG then he did listened to those around him and made a good call [sign of a good manager]. If it wasn't RG then then GET OFF HIS BACK about the other calls i that draft.

Either he made some good, some bad + 1 amazing call in that draft or somebody else did. Don't cherry pick the items you like as not him and assigned the bad ones to him. BE CONSISTENT
 
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Sandan

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As for holdouts, a source supposedly close to the team, said for years that the Cardinals did not have the money to pay signing bonuses until the TV money was distributed by the league in early September. Those of you who read the old AOL Cards Corner board will remember that.

Man it's been a long time since we heard this bit of baseless spectulation.

I think the stad response is, every heard of business loans ?
 

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Hey 40

While you're going on and on with your personal attacks on me, would you like to step back a moment and apologize for being totally wrong about a change in GM automatically meaning an entire rebuild for the team? I'd really appreciate it.

Not being able to hold two oppositions in one's mind and seeing that they both can be valid isn't a character flaw. It's a sign of a high-functioning intelligence. Of course, it doesn't seem like you'd know anything about that. Keep toeing the party line, my friend. It only makes you look more foolish with each passing 5-11 season. But I guess you'll still have all those April headlines to assuage yourself with.

For me, I'd rather have a December front page header reading "CARDS CLINCH PLAYOFFS!" than another July headline on Page C6 elaborating on "HOLDOUT ENTERS SECOND WEEK."
 

Russ Smith

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My point is simple Russ.

RG haters here bring this up over and over again. Like the Cardinals were so stupid as to let Q fall to the 2nd round [like thge rest of the nfl]. Then the only reason we got him is that the Tolbert got down on his knees and begged them to take him.

The obvious point here that the people who say this are trying to make is that all the bad decisions we made in that draft are his fault and none of the good ones.

It sounds to me like whoever was running that draft listened to the Tolbert as he had some additional information. So if it was RG then he did listened to those around him and made a good call [sign of a good manager]. If it wasn't RG then then GET OFF HIS BACK about the other calls i that draft.

Either he made some good, some bad + 1 amazing call in that draft or somebody else did. Don't cherry pick the items you like as not him and assigned the bad ones to him. BE CONSISTENT


Well what was Graves responsible for and what wasn't he? I think that's a fair question.

If you expect people to be consistent, they need to know what he actually does and I can tell you personally I have no idea where the line was drawn between Graves, Mike Bidwill, Green etc. I posted that earlier the Cards have been intentionally vague about that for years.
 

Skkorpion

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I keep asking the same question. Who was responsible for the Cardinals not adequately addressing the OL problems for three years. Does not the GM bear some responsibility for this failure?

They tried. Drafted 2 centers, two guards, and signed 2 FA guards. And finally it started coming together but too late.

The notion they did nothing is false.
 
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