Reality Check

[Sandan]

GMs [aka as VP ...] tend to have a longer tenure than Head coaches. That is largely as it takes longer to determine how effective they are. RG has been on the job 4 years now

 

[kerouac9]

Well, Matt Millen's done a hell of a job so far. I think that you ought to have some success at some level in order to keep your job. Or just illustrate a committment to winning. Rod Graves has done nothing to earn another year on the job, much less a long-term extension.

Honestly, his primary goal seems to be maintaining employment and not building a winning football program. The one real decision that can be laid at his doorstep is--wait for it--the hiring of Dennis Green. If your primary decision results in abject failure, shouldn't you be held responsible?

 

[Stout]

GMs [aka as VP ...] tend to have a longer tenure than Head coaches. That is largely as it takes longer to determine how effective they are. RG has been on the job 4 years now

Nidan, I know that you personally know Graves, and like him in that respect. Still, why shouldn't we be demanding a real GM? Graves hasn't been a real GM, as even the team has shown in the past. He's made stupid decisions. He doesn't deserve a longer tenure, IMO.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

GMs [aka as VP ...] tend to have a longer tenure than Head coaches. That is largely as it takes longer to determine how effective they are. RG has been on the job 4 years now

Well we wont have to wait too long.

1. lots of teams under the cap, small class of FA's. Let's see who, if any, he targets

2. Let's see the handling of BIG. If he isnt franchised and let go for nothing, Graves-being the ultimate decision maker-should be held accountable.

3. First draft w/o Denny. If we want to chastize him for the picking of Pace and BJ, then we have to give him some credit for the last 3 years. Lets see how big an influence DG really way.

 

[jmr667]

Sure there have been some missteps along the way. But is anyone ready to argue there is less talent on this team than there was 4 years ago? With this team its hard to tell who is responsible for that but if they say its mostly Graves than he deserves another couple of years.

 

[conraddobler]

Sure there have been some missteps along the way. But is anyone ready to argue there is less talent on this team than there was 4 years ago? With this team its hard to tell who is responsible for that but if they say its mostly Graves than he deserves another couple of years.

There is no way it was mostly Graves the enitre process we draft by was brought in by Green, it wasn't Graves when he ran the draft almost alone who'd we draft?

Boldin was one scout pleading with the staff other than that the cupboard from that draft is pretty bare.

It is the ultimate revisionist history to thing these last 3 drafts were anything to do with Graves, maybe he nodded a little that's it.

 

[Sandan]

I haven't spoken to RG is several years. I was just pointing out that it usually takes longer to evaluate a GM than a HC

 

[jmr667]

There is no way it was mostly Graves the enitre process we draft by was brought in by Green, it wasn't Graves when he ran the draft almost alone who'd we draft?

Boldin was one scout pleading with the staff other than that the cupboard from that draft is pretty bare.

It is the ultimate revisionist history to thing these last 3 drafts were anything to do with Graves, maybe he nodded a little that's it.

Or it could be Graves first year as a GM he let Mac take the lead. Then helped bring in a coach who shared his philosophy on the draft to replace him. Or it could be Green came in and threatened to sit on Graves if he dared open his mouth during draft season.
No one outside of Graves, Green, the scouts and probably the Bidwills really know how it all went down over the last few years. Since we weren't in on all the talks between Graves and the HCs then to say we know how decisions were made is not revisionist history its pure speculation. So we are left hoping that the Bidwills do know and they made the right call in giving Graves credit. Which is not the best news for any fan familiar with the history of the team, but what can ya do?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think Matt Millen should be given another 5 years to determine what kind of job he has done . The two worst GM's in the league: Matt Millen and Rod Graves. The two teams with the longest string of consecutive 10 loss seasons: Detroit Lions and Arizona Cardinals. I think Millen and Graves have already "proven" themselves.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

I'll give Graves until the draft to judge him. Yes, the whole Pace/B.J. thing was stupid, especially because hometown hero Suggs was available, but Quan, Wells, and Hayes were solid. Kenny King looked good but hurt his wrist- nobody could have seen that coming. Tony Gilbert was stolen from us when he was cut and to be placed on the practice squad, and he's playing more in the NFL as a 6th round pick than Blackstock has as a third round pick. Trading our 7th for that one guy wasn't a bad decision at the time, taking into account that Sullivan was supposed to know good WRs.

The draft was solid except for the first pick- and for a team that had little to no talent, trying to get the most in that round made sense- unfortuneately it was a disaster.

So anyways, I'll judge after this draft.

Our drafts from 1997- 2002 were much worse. In those five years of picks, only Scobey, McCown, Davis, Wilson, KVB, Bell, Hill, Jones, Shelton, Chavous, Walker, and Pittman are still in the league. That's sad. 12 out of 47 players are still around. The guys I didn't mention, besides Tillman, never ever made any contribution to any team.

 

[wembley88]

Does the way he allowed DG to fire so many coaches over the 3 years give an insight into his strength of character?

 

[conraddobler]

If we all had a Cardinals reality check then we'd see that in reality we suck, therefore anyone in the organization disputing that is in fact not in touch with reality.

Guys like Graves who before all the games after Oakland kept telling the announcers in their vists pregame how we were better than our record..... That is so weak from a leadership perspective as to border on insanity.

Would Vince Lombardi or Bill Parcells go around and tell people we aren't one or two players away so we'll just sit on our hands?

Would Vince Lombardi cuddle up to announcers and demand they see that on paper we aren't that bad of a team......

OMG I hate this team sometimes.

 

[Skkorpion]

It has been popular on this board to attribute everything bad to Rod Graves. More outright lies and stupid posts have been made by the Graves haters than all other posters combined.

I used to try to correct the worst lies but finally gave up. I know Rod Graves personally and he still takes my e-mails. I admire the man and he is more responsible for the few good trends on the Cards than you will ever know.

I have come to have complete and utter contempt for those who twist everything into Rod Graves hate fests. Rod is a far better man than you twerps with a keyboard and a target to skewer.

I have violated my own rule on not insulting posters but since so many of you have turned so bitter and vicious and have also increasingly elevated the level of vulgarity beyond the mods ability to contain it, I had to vent.

What happened to civility? The little tiffs between posters are out of control.

And enough of the vulgarity. I'm just going to start banning people with no warning and no explanation because of vulgar posts. With such a large membership, I have no time for niceties.

I won't vent again and I'm not going to censor posts. Continue to savage Graves if you wish but vulgarity will be stomped on.

Happy New Year and my apologies for the rant. I'm calming down. The boards are actually in good shape (many thanks to the mods) and I'm not pissed enough at anyone to have them on my ignore list.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

It has been popular on this board to attribute everything bad to Rod Graves. More outright lies and stupid posts have been made by the Graves haters than all other posters combined.

I used to try to correct the worst lies but finally gave up. I know Rod Graves personally and he still takes my e-mails. I admire the man and he is more responsible for the few good trends on the Cards than you will ever know.

I have come to have complete and utter contempt for those who twist everything into Rod Graves hate fests. Rod is a far better man than you twerps with a keyboard and a target to skewer.

I have violated my own rule on not insulting posters but since so many of you have turned so bitter and vicious and have also increasingly elevated the level of vulgarity beyond the mods ability to contain it, I had to vent.

What happened to civility? The little tiffs between posters are out of control.

And enough of the vulgarity. I'm just going to start banning people with no warning and no explanation because of vulgar posts. With such a large membership, I have no time for niceties.

I won't vent again and I'm not going to censor posts. Continue to savage Graves if you wish but vulgarity will be stomped on.

Happy New Year and my apologies for the rant. I'm calming down. The boards are actually in good shape (many thanks to the mods) and I'm not pissed enough at anyone to have them on my ignore list.

I went back and read the posts on this thread and it doesnt look like anyone bashed Graves as a man. many people, including myself, are apprehensive that he is in charge. I spelled out three things that I will be watching for that will tell me whether or not he is A) calling the shots, and B) how good his calls are/were.

I have said if we want to bash Graves for the Pace/Bj McGinnis drafts/years then you have to give some credit for the lats 3 years drafts. I think most people feel, and rightly so, that most of those past 3 drafts were the result of DG's influence, so everyone is very skeptical and curious what this years FA's and Draft brings...

 

[RedRob]

It has been popular on this board to attribute everything bad to Rod Graves. More outright lies and stupid posts have been made by the Graves haters than all other posters combined.

I used to try to correct the worst lies but finally gave up. I know Rod Graves personally and he still takes my e-mails. I admire the man and he is more responsible for the few good trends on the Cards than you will ever know.

I have come to have complete and utter contempt for those who twist everything into Rod Graves hate fests. Rod is a far better man than you twerps with a keyboard and a target to skewer.

I have violated my own rule on not insulting posters but since so many of you have turned so bitter and vicious and have also increasingly elevated the level of vulgarity beyond the mods ability to contain it, I had to vent.

What happened to civility? The little tiffs between posters are out of control.

And enough of the vulgarity. I'm just going to start banning people with no warning and no explanation because of vulgar posts. With such a large membership, I have no time for niceties.

I won't vent again and I'm not going to censor posts. Continue to savage Graves if you wish but vulgarity will be stomped on.

Happy New Year and my apologies for the rant. I'm calming down. The boards are actually in good shape (many thanks to the mods) and I'm not pissed enough at anyone to have them on my ignore list.

Couldn't agree more. It's amazing how people will treat each other when they're separated by cyberspace. How about treating each other as if they were in the room with you?

My opinion on Graves, which I'd let him know face to face:

The good: Great job in getting the cap under control and setting us up beautifully for the future.

The bad: For everyone's rumblings about McGinnis you have to assume he's a BETTER coach than Green. Less talent = same record. I didn't see the coach (Green) getting coached up, i.e. bad clock management, poor half-time adjustments, etc. Whose responsibility is when a coach displays no ability in improving over a three year time span?

 

[conraddobler]

It has been popular on this board to attribute everything bad to Rod Graves. More outright lies and stupid posts have been made by the Graves haters than all other posters combined.

I used to try to correct the worst lies but finally gave up. I know Rod Graves personally and he still takes my e-mails. I admire the man and he is more responsible for the few good trends on the Cards than you will ever know.

I have come to have complete and utter contempt for those who twist everything into Rod Graves hate fests. Rod is a far better man than you twerps with a keyboard and a target to skewer.

I have violated my own rule on not insulting posters but since so many of you have turned so bitter and vicious and have also increasingly elevated the level of vulgarity beyond the mods ability to contain it, I had to vent.

What happened to civility? The little tiffs between posters are out of control.

And enough of the vulgarity. I'm just going to start banning people with no warning and no explanation because of vulgar posts. With such a large membership, I have no time for niceties.

I won't vent again and I'm not going to censor posts. Continue to savage Graves if you wish but vulgarity will be stomped on.

Happy New Year and my apologies for the rant. I'm calming down. The boards are actually in good shape (many thanks to the mods) and I'm not pissed enough at anyone to have them on my ignore list.

I could care less how good a man Rod Graves is, Rod Graves isn't any better man than a number of people I know including myself, none of which do I want running the Cardinal football team.

The only judge of a man in his career is his performance, his sucks.

I've watched the Cardinals longer than you have Skorp and I know he's changed the mindset when it comes to players contracts, bottom line though is he picked one coach, I disliked, I was right and it failed.

He's up to bat again and I'm nervous, sue me.

 

[Pariah]

It's amazing how people will treat each other when they're separated by cyberspace.

FWIW, I've found ASFN to be the most civil football message board out there--by far.

 

[AntSports Steve]

I don't believe that Graves is a real GM. The Cards upper management really don't want a GM. Instead they want a "Yes Man" and that is what Graves is. He's done his job as a "Yes Man" very well. I believe that the Bidwills chose Green not Graves. Green did the personal not Graves. The Bidwills determine how much budget is spent on upfront money for player contracts. I also believe that the Bidwills give Graves a year player budget which is less than the NFL cap amount.

Graves does contracts and stays within his given budget. For that job he's done pretty good. I feel that the Bidwills have handicapped all of their coaches by giving them a reduced budget for players.

Also, remember that Graves has been working without a contract for quite some time now.

For the limited role the Cards allow their "GM", Graves has done ok. Most normal NFL people would not want to accept the Cards GM job as it does not include most GM duties. I'm sure the Bidwills will have the final say on the new coach, not Graves. I'm sure they also continue to limit the player budget (not that it would help this year as there is no one to spend it on).

 

[Skkorpion]

So, Steve, how do you and cbus and the other "Cards are cheap" explain the team's swallowing seven, now eight, coaching contracts for fired coaches in the last three years?

Oh, wait, those don't count because they contradict your opinions.

 

[Pariah]

It's not an all or nothing proposition. If an organiation exhibits "cheap" behavior moreso than its counterparts in the NFL, it's cheap by comparison.

 

[Mitch]

Three things that impress me most about Rod Graves:

1. He has class.

2. He has an exemplary work ethic.

3. He has made significant progress in the way in which the Cardinals negotiate and finalize contracts.

I am glad he's been re-signed. I believe he deserves it.

So many of you won't let the trade down draft go...in retrospect it was indeed a mistake...BUT...look at it this way...if Graves drafted Boldin and Pace in the first round and Bryant Johnson on the second...would you be that upset? Boldin is headed to his second Pro Bowl...and he was taken in the 2nd round of that same draft...not only that, Graves has signed Boldin to a long term extension...

I also admire the way Graves and Michael Bidwill are being super aggressive in finding their next head coach...to the point of Graves flying all over the place to interview candidates...that speaks to this man's commitment and the aforementioned work ethic.

Skkorp is right...Graves deserves a great deal more respect than what he has been getting on this board and from the media.

 

[conraddobler]

Three things that impress me most about Rod Graves:

1. He has class.

2. He has an exemplary work ethic.

3. He has made significant progress in the way in which the Cardinals negotiate and finalize contracts.

I am glad he's been re-signed. I believe he deserves it.

So many of you won't let the trade down draft go...in retrospect it was indeed a mistake...BUT...look at it this way...if Graves drafted Boldin and Pace in the first round and Bryant Johnson on the second...would you be that upset? Boldin is headed to his second Pro Bowl...and he was taken in the 2nd round of that same draft...not only that, Graves has signed Boldin to a long term extension...

I also admire the way Graves and Michael Bidwill are being super aggressive in finding their next head coach...to the point of Graves flying all over the place to interview candidates...that speaks to this man's commitment and the aforementioned work ethic.

Skkorp is right...Graves deserves a great deal more respect than what he has been getting on this board and from the media.

Mitch didn't he participate in Green's hiring?

Who cares that he has class, my neighbor is the classiest guy I know and I wouldn't want him running my football team.

In a world where Matt Millen is retained anything is possible I guess.

 

[joeshmo]

So, Steve, how do you and cbus and the other "Cards are cheap" explain the team's swallowing seven, now eight, coaching contracts for fired coaches in the last three years?

Oh, wait, those don't count because they contradict your opinions.

Lets be a little more clear here.

Thats one 2.5 Mill contract and 7 of the cheapest assistant contracts in the league. Except for Greens it wasnt much to eat.

It is also a way of public relations to make coaches scape goats (rightfull or wrongly it doesnt matter) in the eyes of the public that are paying for the product.

 

[joeshmo]

I also admire the way Graves and Michael Bidwill are being super aggressive in finding their next head coach...to the point of Graves flying all over the place to interview candidates...that speaks to this man's commitment and the aforementioned work ethic.

Just to point out the Cards did do the same super aggressiveness when looking for their last head coach. Including giving the Fans a list of their tragets when the whole process started and traveling to see coaches.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch didn't he participate in Green's hiring?

Who cares that he has class, my neighbor is the classiest guy I know and I wouldn't want him running my football team.

In a world where Matt Millen is retained anything is possible I guess.

Yes, Conrad, Graves did have a big hand in Green's hiring...but then was quickly forced into a position of having to support Green as Green started his wave of rash personnel decisions...and Graves has had to try to support Green while Green consistently made conspicuous mistakes in game preparation and management. One thing that was very much implied in yesterday's press conference was that Graves tried to reason with Green about certain differences in opinion. Just how flexible do you think Green was in those disputes?

You notice that in the press conference (as is usually customary) neither Graves nor Bidwill thanked Dennis Green for his efforts...that says a lot...

My guess is that neither Graves nor MB was enamored with Green's lax work ethic (which is why they now want a detail guy with a plan), hands-off approach, or his obstinancy.

It looked to me all along that Green treated this job the same way Buddy Ryan did: as a sinecure.

Yesterday when ESPN was reporting that it was "a sad day for Dennis Green"...didn't you gag? Dennis Green is not sad at all...in fact he's licking his chops at the prospect of sitting at home collecting $2.5M to fish with next year and many years to come. He already told the media something like..."I don't get emotional, I'm a grown man." WTF! There was never any sadness from Dennis Green and as far as nine weeks ago he was already sounding like a lame duck who acted like he could care less about keeping the job.

As for class...maybe it's just me...but you win with character people...and class is an important part of character, especially when it's manifested in the spokespeople of the organization...

For example, did you see Mike Shanahan's press conference today about Darrent Williams? Shanahan's class was remarkable...he fought back tears the entire time and put everything in classy perspective...and the love in his heart for Darrent Williams was so tangible it was incredible...those are the kind of people I want running my organization...people who have heart and genuinely care...and have the class to lay it on the line...