Rod Graves

nidan

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It's really very simply, IMO.

What is our record since Graves took over a leadership role in the organization? That is to say, since he had a major role in signing or not signing players. In signing coaches. In firing coaches. In restructuring contracts, yada yada yada...


Yada, yada yada, hmm so its all about the record ?

Remind me how did we do last year ?

Was it an improvement on the previous year ?

By what % did our win/loss record improve ?

And no I'm not content but last year was better anybody would think we got worse for all the angst in this thread.
 

Stout

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I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T WANT TO KEEP PACE OR THAT I THINK HE IS EXPENDABLE.

But listening to the hand wringing here you would think he had just been awarded a free pass to the HOF when he retires.

Its also interesting that I get all this heat and nothing has actually happened yet. Lighten up a little folks.

It is allowed to not think the world will end if [and it is still and if] we don't resign Pace. Is he better than CO ?

My point was and still is. Stout exaggerated to get this recent 'Rod Graves sucks' thread going. Now if we had just lost Larry and Dansby I'd be pretty ticked off but as yet we haven't lost anybody or did I miss it ?

Whoa, I exaggerated nothing, brother. Some people want to forget what Graves said last year, which might exlode in his face this year. I can understand wanting to forget it, because it is going to be brutal (unless a deal can be struck). I'm preparing for the worst while hoping for the best, that's all. If everyone could just recall what happened and what was said last year, I wouldn't be spouting off. Instead, some ardent Graves supporters refuse to admit he might make a mistake, and so I will argue ad infinitum.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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Rod's exact quote after the Rams game was...

Rod Graves said:
But our goal is to keep our core together. That’s our No. 1 priority going into the offseason.

Bordow's article with this quote from Graves then goes into the three important things facing the Cardinals and details the situations of Pace, Fitz, and Dansby. Now almost three months later thus far this offseason we have accomplished...

1. Pace extension? Whiff.
2. Fitzgerald re-structure? Whiff.
3. Dansby extension? Whiff, strike 3.

That's 0-3 this far by my count which makes Graces very open for criticism. Don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cash Rod.
 

Shane

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Rod's exact quote after the Rams game was...



Bordow's article with this quote from Graves then goes into the three important things facing the Cardinals and details the situations of Pace, Fitz, and Dansby. Now almost three months later thus far this offseason we have accomplished...

1. Pace extension? Whiff.
2. Fitzgerald re-structure? Whiff.
3. Dansby extension? Whiff, strike 3.

That's 0-3 this far by my count which makes Graces very open for criticism. Don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cash Rod.
Not really.

Fitz is under contract for two more years. Super Inflated cap #? Yes. But hear none the less. Dansby is here too unless Im mistaken? The only one that has a legit shot to walk this coming season is Pace. We dont know if that will happen yet.

Just because they havent reached "extended" contacts with them doesnt make it a whiff. Just makes them expensive.
 
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Stout

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Amen, Mao. You know, Graves and his words and his plans are really crystalizing into a shrinking regression of expectations. First it was to save cap space last year so that we could take advantage of a better FA crop and re-sign and extend our core players for this year. Then it was tag Dansby and work on an extension for Fitz and hopefully a deal for Pace. Then it was tag Dansby, let Pace test the waters, and work on Fitz. Now we probably can't even accomplish that. It's regressed to the point where FA is probably going to be dead for us, not because of our typical conservative bent, but because we'll have mismanaged ourselves into offseason impotence.
 

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Amen, Mao. You know, Graves and his words and his plans are really crystalizing into a shrinking regression of expectations. First it was to save cap space last year so that we could take advantage of a better FA crop and re-sign and extend our core players for this year. Then it was tag Dansby and work on an extension for Fitz and hopefully a deal for Pace. Then it was tag Dansby, let Pace test the waters, and work on Fitz. Now we probably can't even accomplish that. It's regressed to the point where FA is probably going to be dead for us, not because of our typical conservative bent, but because we'll have mismanaged ourselves into offseason impotence.

blah blah blah you are worrying about nothing. You really are. I'll make you a bet. I bet that we extend Fitz this year. Get Dansby signed to an extension within the next year and sign some good depth FA's during this off season.

If Pace walks he walks. As much as I would like to keep him. He isnt truly a "core" guy. He just isnt.
 

40yearfan

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Really, Nidan? I mean, really? You're going to jump on that awfully small boat too and claim this is foresight by Graves? Graves NEVER planned on carrying a 17 million dollar cap figure into this season for Fitz. Never. No idiot would ever plan on doing that because it would be, well, idiotic. Placing 1/6 of your cap in one player is stupid, no matter who that player is. You don't recall (like, in the above article) that Graves set us up to use cap space last year so we would have a healthy cap this year? Well, if you don't recall it, you must have amnesia. That was the plan sold to us last offseason. It'd be fine, too, if he can manage an extension with Fitz. If not, we saved all kinds of cap space for NO REASON. Yeah, we get to keep Fitz...at 17mill and not sign anyone and not even bring Pace back. Whoop-de-doo.

Look, if he gets the deal done, that's great. I'll be thrilled and we'll hopefully go out and use that cap space effectively this year. The only reason people are getting upset right now, myself especially, is because some people are actually trying to paint over Graves' plan from a year ago, and some people are actually HAPPY that we might spend 17 million dollars on one player. It's an outlandish idea that I cannot believe anyone in their right mind would be on board with. My goodness!

Stout, here are the direct quotes from Graves in that article:

“I would rather re-invest that money in Anquan Boldin or Larry Fitzgerald or players of that nature,” Graves said. “I’d see that rather than chasing guys who you don’t even know if they will line up for you but yet they are getting multi-million dollar deals.”

Graves said the team would rather “take the medicine now” instead of having dead money later, which would make managing cutting a player easier. It would also help when players such as Boldin, Fitzgerald, safety Adrian Wilson and quarterback Matt Leinart come up for contract extensions.

Now I see absolutely nothing in those quotes that say RG was doing it so we would have a healthy cap and I don't think anyone else will. All of the rest of the words in that article were Urbans.

It's exactly like I remember it. RG said we want to keep our core players and never mentioned anything about having a healthy cap to pursue free agents this year. Those words came from the reporters. The first quote even reinforces what I am saying. RG says he don't want to chase after FA's. What you are saying about RG saving cap space didn't come from him and that's been my argument all along.
 

Stout

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Stout, here are the direct quotes from Graves in that article:





Now I see absolutely nothing in those quotes that say RG was doing it so we would have a healthy cap and I don't think anyone else will. All of the rest of the words in that article were Urbans.

It's exactly like I remember it. RG said we want to keep our core players and never mentioned anything about having a healthy cap to pursue free agents this year. Those words came from the reporters. The first quote even reinforces what I am saying. RG says he don't want to chase after FA's. What you are saying about RG saving cap space didn't come from him and that's been my argument all along.

Whatever. You are in absolute denial. I should be surprised, but I'm not. I've finished arguing with you about it.
 

40yearfan

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Whatever. You are in absolute denial. I should be surprised, but I'm not. I've finished arguing with you about it.

Because you can't. It's obvious from that article what Graves intentions were and having additional cap space to chase after free agents was definetly not one of them.

C'mon it's not so hard. Just say you were right 40. I just misread what those nasty old reporters were saying.:D
 

Stout

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blah blah blah you are worrying about nothing. You really are. I'll make you a bet. I bet that we extend Fitz this year. Get Dansby signed to an extension within the next year and sign some good depth FA's during this off season.

If Pace walks he walks. As much as I would like to keep him. He isnt truly a "core" guy. He just isnt.

No no, if we bet, you'd have to change your parameters a little bit. Unless Fitz is extended THIS WEEK, he might as well be extended in October. We need the cap space, or else we will be unable to even sign good depth players in FA without cutting our own players. The dansby extension? That can be within the next year for all I care. I'd rather have him signed long-term right now, but I can live with him just remaining franchised for now IF we can extend Fitz. Letting Pace walk right now, unless the contract is astronomical, would be stupid and counterproductive to the plan of keeping our young talent. He's shown talent and he has room to improve, and guess what? Other than Berry and Okeafor, two big question marks, we don't have another OLB that can play. Getting rid of Pace, then, would be counterproductive.

The bottom line, really, is how badly we will be hamstrung this offseason. You and a very few others seem okay with having almost no cap space, while allowing ONE PLAYER to eat up 1/6 of the entire cap. Letting that happen is DUMB. It is fiscally unsound and uncapwise to boot.

So, I guess I don't really have a wager for you. I just pray that we don't have to rely on what you seem quite all right in relying on.
 

Stout

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Because you can't. It's obvious from that article what Graves intentions were and having additional cap space to chase after free agents was definetly not one of them.

C'mon it's not so hard. Just say you were right 40. I just misread what those nasty old reporters were saying.:D

No, I'm just not willing to waste my time digging up information that about 95 percent of this board knows for a fact. Sorry, you just aren't worth it. Continue your lockstep support of the FO. At least you're consistent. Dang, I'm willing to admit when they do something right. You could at least try to reciprocate. No, then I guess you'd be based in reality, huh? :D
 

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No, I'm just not willing to waste my time digging up information that about 95 percent of this board knows for a fact. Sorry, you just aren't worth it. Continue your lockstep support of the FO. At least you're consistent. Dang, I'm willing to admit when they do something right. You could at least try to reciprocate. No, then I guess you'd be based in reality, huh? :D

And have M. Bidwill kick me off of the payroll?? No thanks.;)
 

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If Pace walks he walks. As much as I would like to keep him. He isnt truly a "core" guy. He just isnt.

That's not what Graves and Whisenhunt think!
During an interview at the NFL Scouting Combine, Arizona Cardinals vice president of football operations Rod Graves said the team is still trying to keep LB Calvin Pace, who is eligible to become a free agent this offseason. Graves said he and head coach Ken Whisenhunt consider Pace one of their core players and they would like to retain him.
...dave
 

slanidrac16

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Micheal Bidwill holds the keys to this years car. This organization needs to recognize what seems crystal clear to me and many here on this board.

There is no way ANY team goes into a season with 1 player eating up 1/6th of the ENTIRE cap with a 17 Mil salary. If this happens, it will not be all Rod Graves fault. He definitely will share part of the blame, however, the contract Fitz originally had obvious pitfalls with achievable incentives.

So whats the solution? Bidwill needs to make a decision. Fish or cut bait. He needs to give the green light to either make Fitz a lifetime Cardinal or work a deal to move him. That's going to take a HUGE extension bonus, THAT is the bottom line. The incentives need to be removed and replaced with gaurantees. Everything points to Fitzgerald being a superstar for years to come. DO we give him gauranteed money and hope that comes true? We know what he brings to the table and he is still ONLY 24 YEARS OLD. He will still get better.

It's going to take a bold blockbuster move to get this done. Graves can't do this on his own. We are looking at 35 to 40 m gauranteed to get this to happen. Larry is gauranteed 17 mil already. If he has another good year he will make that again next year OR re-do his deal. So whether we pay him 17m this year and then sign him to an extension next year he is going to get a bunch of gauranteed money.

If we're going to do it, then Bidwill needs to recognize that and do it now. It makes no sense to cap strap this team this year without getting a long term deal in place NOW. With a new deal, Fitzgerald will become the face of this franchise today and for the next 5, 6 or 7 years.

We have every reason to believe Fitzgerald will become one of the most prolific WR in NFL. If this organization believes this then they need to make this happen. If they don't believe this then they need to look to trade him, save this years cap and move on.

Fish or cut bait.
 

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My take on the whole thing (which matters very little) is that last year's moves did exactly what they expected. It gave more cap space for this year. That is undeniable. We would have been what, about 12 million over the cap without those moves? Instead we were 2 million. The problem is that the space it was going to create was eaten up by Fitz making the pro bowl. Did he seeing it coming? No, that's why his reasons shifted. But he shouldn't have thought it would happen. Do you know hard it is for a WR to make the pro bowl two of his first 4 years? Of course he didn't see it happening, because it rarely does.

The point isn't "was he ready for Fitz to make 16 million." It DID happen. The key is how he performs now that it is done. I am pleased he spent when he did last year. I know, most don't, but he signed some mid level guys, whiffed on the big ones, and saved to keep the core together. And when it was not enough, he cut dead weight and restructured contracts to get some wiggle room. The key is to get the deals done. Restructure Fitz, Long-term deal for Dansby, Pace or a suitable replacement, and depth at some positions.
 

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My take on the whole thing (which matters very little) is that last year's moves did exactly what they expected. It gave more cap space for this year. That is undeniable. We would have been what, about 12 million over the cap without those moves? Instead we were 2 million. The problem is that the space it was going to create was eaten up by Fitz making the pro bowl. Did he seeing it coming? No, that's why his reasons shifted. But he shouldn't have thought it would happen. Do you know hard it is for a WR to make the pro bowl two of his first 4 years? Of course he didn't see it happening, because it rarely does.

The point isn't "was he ready for Fitz to make 16 million." It DID happen. The key is how he performs now that it is done. I am pleased he spent when he did last year. I know, most don't, but he signed some mid level guys, whiffed on the big ones, and saved to keep the core together. And when it was not enough, he cut dead weight and restructured contracts to get some wiggle room. The key is to get the deals done. Restructure Fitz, Long-term deal for Dansby, Pace or a suitable replacement, and depth at some positions.

:thumbup:

I don't agree that I'm happy he was so conservative last year, but on the rest, you're pretty spot on.
 

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Can someone please explain how we went from this:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=86735

Where we were talking about the minimum spending requirements under the CBA to not having any cap space at all in just one season without signing any high dollar free agents? I don't think I'll ever understand the NFL's salary cap.

More from this time last year: (sorry if this has been posted already but the threads are getting long)

Cardinals' plan in place
Graves: Despite cap space, roster to be supplemented, not overhauled
Kent Somers
Feb. 25, 2007

INDIANAPOLIS - The NFL's free-agent market opens Thursday, and the Cardinals issued assurances Saturday that they will be there with a game plan in hand when the doors open.

As expected, they weren't forthcoming with details, except to say they will try to supplement the roster rather than overhaul it. After all, coach Dennis Green was fired because ownership and management felt the talent warranted a better record than 5-11.

Ken Whisenhunt was hired in part because his philosophy meshed with the talent already under contract, said Rod Graves, vice president of football operations.

"We really feel like in many respects it's a plug-and-play type of approach," Graves said Saturday at the NFL scouting combine. "We feel like we have some talented players, and with a good plan that our players believe in and a stress on discipline and execution, I feel like we'll be a much better football team."

That doesn't mean the Cardinals view free agency as unimportant. They have enough needs and cap space, about $32 million, to be a major factor in the market.

"There are a couple guys out there we want to pursue," Whisenhunt said. "You don't really know who will be out there until the end, because there are guys who are working on deals (to re-sign with their teams) as we speak."

For instance, Dallas on Tuesday re-signed center Andre Gurode, "one of those guys we liked," Whisenhunt said.

Neither Whisenhunt nor Graves was inclined to mention names, but the offensive line will be an area of emphasis. The Cardinals have a hole at left tackle, although they continue to profess interest in re-signing Leonard Davis, an unrestricted free agent.

The Cardinals are curious about what free-agent offers Davis might receive. Their best-case scenario is that another team won't offer him a huge deal and they can get him to return for a reasonable amount.

"We wanted to have an opportunity to see where the market would be for him and to work with him during the course of that," Graves said.

Whisenhunt's offensive scheme emphasizes the need for a strong tight end and fullback, pointing to two more potential target areas.

Tight end was a weakness last year, and the fullback was an afterthought in Green's offense.

Whisenhunt also would like to find a second running back to take some of the load off Edgerrin James. But Whisenhunt is high on Cardinals running back Marcel Shipp, an unrestricted free agent, and is intrigued to see J.J. Arrington, a disappointment in his two NFL seasons.

"Marcel Shipp has been impressive to me, from what I see on tape," Whisenhunt said. "I think he would be a big contributor for us."

The Cardinals will look for help on defense. They would like to add some strength and bulk at tackle and another pass rusher. There is little depth in the secondary.

In fact, the only two positions that won't get much attention this off-season are quarterback and receiver.

The Cardinals were active early in last year's free-agent market, signing James, defensive tackle Kendrick Clancy and guard Milford Brown in the first few days.

Graves didn't commit to that same plan for this year.

"I'm not by any stretch of the imagination going to guarantee that we're going to approach it that way," he said. "I think Edgerrin James added a unique element to our approach last year. It was an opportunity to address our running game with one of the best backs in the history of the game. And we wanted to jump on that opportunity.

"If we're in position where we can do something similar with a player who carries as much impact, then I think we're poised to do that."
 

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The following is from that ASFN thread Feb. 28th 2007. Good job BACH.


BACH's post:
How about Fitz? Doesn't his contract jump to some insane number after next season?

Joeshmoe reply:
Even if he did get all of his bonuses and incentives with the way the cap went up and will go up in the future the number isnt insane. But Fitz already missed his first big bonus because he didnt make the pro bowl 2 out of his first 3 years. That and his contract wont get "insane" until his last year of his contract which is the 2009 season.

BACH:
Ahh, okay. I was convinced that the clause was PB 2 out of the first 4 years.
 

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Rod's exact quote after the Rams game was...



Bordow's article with this quote from Graves then goes into the three important things facing the Cardinals and details the situations of Pace, Fitz, and Dansby. Now almost three months later thus far this offseason we have accomplished...

1. Pace extension? Whiff.
2. Fitzgerald re-structure? Whiff.
3. Dansby extension? Whiff, strike 3.

That's 0-3 this far by my count which makes Graces very open for criticism. Don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cash Rod.

As Shane pointed out Mao, this is nothing more than egregious exaggeration.
 

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We would have been what, about 12 million over the cap without those moves? Instead we were 2 million.

We were never over by 2 Mill. Both Sommers and Urban already debunked that bad report. Also they would not have been over by 12 Mill this year. Remember that signing bonuses are spread out over the life of the deal which means we would only have about 1.5 Mill less this season if even half of the roster bonuses were signing bonuses. That also means 1.5 Mill more in 2009 and 2010 as well. It would not have been 12 Mill all in one season.
 

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We were never over by 2 Mill. Both Sommers and Urban already debunked that bad report. Also they would not have been over by 12 Mill this year. Remember that signing bonuses are spread out over the life of the deal which means we would only have about 1.5 Mill less this season if even half of the roster bonuses were signing bonuses. That also means 1.5 Mill more in 2009 and 2010 as well. It would not have been 12 Mill all in one season.

I am largely dependant on new from here since I do not live in Arizona, so I am not sure what the actual number is. It was my understanding that we converted roster bonuses from this year to last year. If it was a conversion of signing to roster bonuses that doesn't make sense since the signing bonus HAS to be paid within 24 hours of a contract signing. So why would we repay that signing bonus a year later? Also who were the players? I know Matt was one, but who were the others.
 

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I am largely dependant on new from here since I do not live in Arizona, so I am not sure what the actual number is. It was my understanding that we converted roster bonuses from this year to last year. If it was a conversion of signing to roster bonuses that doesn't make sense since the signing bonus HAS to be paid within 24 hours of a contract signing. So why would we repay that signing bonus a year later? Also who were the players? I know Matt was one, but who were the others.

I'm not really sure what you're saying, because I don't fully understand all of this contract talk, but you can pretty much take the word of Joe as fact on these matters.
 

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I am largely dependant on new from here since I do not live in Arizona, so I am not sure what the actual number is. It was my understanding that we converted roster bonuses from this year to last year. If it was a conversion of signing to roster bonuses that doesn't make sense since the signing bonus HAS to be paid within 24 hours of a contract signing. So why would we repay that signing bonus a year later? Also who were the players? I know Matt was one, but who were the others.


Rolle was the other guy. Incentives based on playing time.
 

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I'm not really sure what you're saying, because I don't fully understand all of this contract talk, but you can pretty much take the word of Joe as fact on these matters.


Well, when you sign a player and give him a signing bonus it is paid immediately and split up evenly over the length of the contract. As an exmaple, I get a 10 million bonus for a 5 year contract and a salary of a million a year. Each year's cap hit is the prorated 2 million dollar signing bonus plus their base salary (3 million total).

Roster bonuses are different. They count in the year they are given to the player. So let's say I sign, make a salary of a million a year and in my second year get a 3 mil "roster bonus". My first year my cap hit is 1 million (my base salary), the seocnd year it is 4 million (1 mil. salary and the entire 3 mil. roster bonus).

Joe is saying that last year's transactions spent 10 million, but only save 1.5 million because spending that 10 mil in "savings" is spread over the life of the contract. I can't see how this happens because you would be in effect duplicating paying the player a signing bonus. It doesn't make any sense to me because we already paid that signing bonus, why would we repay it?

And if those payments were roster bonuses to take the place of future roster bonuses (which was my understanding), they should have completely counted on last years cap instead of this year's cap, in effect saving us dollar for dollar. Roster bonuses are not spread evenly over the rest of the life of the contract, so I am unsure how we didn't save dollar for dollar.
 

Stout

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Well, when you sign a player and give him a signing bonus it is paid immediately and split up evenly over the length of the contract. As an exmaple, I get a 10 million bonus for a 5 year contract and a salary of a million a year. Each year's cap hit is the prorated 2 million dollar signing bonus plus their base salary (3 million total).

Roster bonuses are different. They count in the year they are given to the player. So let's say I sign, make a salary of a million a year and in my second year get a 3 mil "roster bonus". My first year my cap hit is 1 million (my base salary), the seocnd year it is 4 million (1 mil. salary and the entire 3 mil. roster bonus).

Joe is saying that last year's transactions spent 10 million, but only save 1.5 million because spending that 10 mil in "savings" is spread over the life of the contract. I can't see how this happens because you would be in effect duplicating paying the player a signing bonus. It doesn't make any sense to me because we already paid that signing bonus, why would we repay it?

And if those payments were roster bonuses to take the place of future roster bonuses (which was my understanding), they should have completely counted on last years cap instead of this year's cap, in effect saving us dollar for dollar. Roster bonuses are not spread evenly over the rest of the life of the contract, so I am unsure how we didn't save dollar for dollar.

Like I said, this stuff isn't my ballpark. I know Joe and I know his qualifications, so if he agrees with you, then I will too. It's no knock against you, Chris, but he knows what he's talking about.
 
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