Roethsberger v. Manning

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
The guy flying under the radar right now is JP Losman. This guy is every bit as physically talented as Roethsliberger and can run better. Seriously, he is right there with the both of them in my mind.

Watch him in the All Star games.

probably true I have a "grudge" against Losman since I was reminded he started his career at UCLA and bolted for Tulane. At the time he took a lot of flack with Bruin fans who took great pleasure in his sitting behind Ramsey at Tulane.


Basically he enrolled at UCLA in 99 after McNown and when he realized he was in for a fight for the job, he asked for his release and sat the year playing for Tulane in 2000. He's said to be an extremely cocky kid and the word was that he just expected UCLA to hand him the job and when they didn't he gave up and transferred.

Best runner of the 3 and has a strong arm, college numbers are certainly good but even lesser competition than Big Ben.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by Russ Smith

Best runner of the 3 and has a strong arm, college numbers are certainly good but even lesser competition than Big Ben.

That's true Russ. But, I think that is offset some by the fact that he had by far the worst talent around him of the three. That team was gawdawful except for him.

Conference USA has put out some decent QB's at Louisville and some clown named Favre played at Southern Miss.

 

[Snakester]

Originally posted by Assface
I haven't gotten a chance to see Rothcheeseburger yet, how quick of a release does he have? Someone said they're not sure if his motions are slow or effortless. The reason someone like Leftwhich can be slow without getting sacked is 1. recognizing what the defense is doing so you know where to throw right away and 2. being able to get rid of the ball before anyone gets to you. Dan Marino had cinder blocks on his feet yet he was very hard to sack. Someone with 100 career rushing yards doesn't accomplish that with athleticism. If Ben can read a defense and get rid of the ball quickly he could be very successful. If he has a slow windup or doesn't understand what's going on around him, he won't be long for this league.

Thoughts?

I'll share my thoughts with you on the Berger boy.
Like Marino he has great awareness in the pocket.
He has great touch on his passes.
He is big 6-5 240
He runs well and won't be arm tackled. He's no Vick running but he moves well.
He is deadly acurate in short and medium passes.
His long throws are pretty and most on the money.
He throws well on the run and squares his shoulders to pass.
Great arm. He makes throwing 60 yards look like it is 20.
His throws look so effortless you would think if he really tried to wing the ball he could throw 100 yards.
He appears calm in the pocket. The Iceman would be a good nick name.

 

[Harry]

Sorry Russ, I can't agree with how you decide what the orientation of a conference is.

1. If you want to look at the top people, I would venture a lot more runners have been drafted early from the conference, than receivers and QBs.

2. Consider attempts. This year in the MAC there were 6716 running plays versus only 5471 passing attempts. That's a cool 18.5% more passing plays. Contrast that with the PAC 10 where they ran 4279 times and passed 4370. That's only a 2% difference. Most conferences do have more runs than passes, but not 18.5%. The top teams were the aberration, not the norm.

On the other hand, I think we are in agreement Mr. R is the risk, though he could turn out to be excellent. Clearly Pennington and Leftwich had better collegiate receivers, so that is a big point in Mr. R's favor. It's not that I don't like him. I just wouldn't risk him.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Harry
On the other hand, I think we are in agreement Mr. R is the risk, though he could turn out to be excellent. Clearly Pennington and Leftwich had better collegiate receivers, so that is a big point in Mr. R's favor. It's not that I don't like him. I just wouldn't risk him.

See, this is exactly the problem. You wouldn't 'risk' him. Which is fine, Harry. I respect your opinion and you certainly know the game.

But what would we as a team rather do? Take a chance on a highly-rated QB prospect, even though he has a higher risk factor, or settle for Jeff Blake, Josh McCown, Preston Parsons and whatever other nonentities we can line up for the next five or so years?

What happens if, God forbid, we pass on him, and he turns into the next Pennington? We get stuck with a less-than-stellar QB, more than likely, and look stupid again.

I mean, really, if we have a shot at one of the blue-chip QBs, IMO, we HAVE to take him. We HAVE to take that shot at a franchise QB. Otherwise, we'll continue to be mired in QB mediocrity for years on end.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout

I mean, really, if we have a shot at one of the blue-chip QBs, IMO, we HAVE to take him. We HAVE to take that shot at a franchise QB. Otherwise, we'll continue to be mired in QB mediocrity for years on end.

I'm not even convinced that he is a franchise QB.

He looked great the other night, but his competition didn't exactly "WOW" me. Bowling Green is not a good team.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not even convinced that he is a franchise QB.

He looked great the other night, but his competition didn't exactly "WOW" me. Bowling Green is not a good team.

Entirely to much stock put into that.

Just tell Pennington, or Mcnair etc.....

Football is still football and this kid is very impressive JMHO!

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

First off,Ben will enter the draft.Secondly, i think Manning is the better choice.He is the only reason they won 10 games and played in the toughest conference in the land.The thing that concerns me about Ben is how he can handle a pass rush.In most games he has seen very little pressure and has ahd very little chance of getting rattled.Iowa got in his face and he struggled.I will give him the benefit of the doubt there because he also had brand new WR's that game.Plus it bothers me that Ben has only been QB for 4 years.How's he going to react and will he have the ability to read more comlex defenses.Manning has been groomed his entire life to be a QB.When you line the 2 up side by side there's just alot more question marks on Ben's side.

 

[HookemCards]

I think I would take Manning if I had the #1, but if I'm stuck at 3 and Rothlisburger is sitting there, I'd snatch him up. Then go WR, DE, or CB the rest of the draft.

I agree Manning is probably more ready to play next year than Big Ben is. But I don't buy into the better competition arguement (obviously Manning played against better competition) but Manning also had a better supporting class around him. This is just like Leftwich last year, the biggest concern was that he played against weaker competition, but the bottom line is you have to be pretty accurate to complete 70 percent of you passes no matter who you play. Also the MAC is actually a pretty damn good conference now, obviously not the SEC, Big 12, or Big 10, but its not the WAC either, quite a few teams from the MAC have knocked off ranked opponents this year.

Too me it looks like a Win-Win for the Cardinals, unless of course they are number 3 and both are gone, of course then you could take Roy Williams, Fitzgerald (if he comes out), or Wilfolk, and then take a guy like Losman, or Rivers in the 2nd.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Franchise

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not even convinced that he is a franchise QB.

He looked great the other night, but his competition didn't exactly "WOW" me. Bowling Green is not a good team.

I guess it's your definition of franchise.

Mickey D's is a franchise but we're not talking about that.

My defintion is someone who can take you to the playoffs.

Blake can't.

McCown can't.

Parsons can't.

Pennington can.

Lewftwich can.

Which leads to my final point (thank God you say) which is that Big Ben is every bit a QB just as good as Lefty and Penny.

And by the way BG is NOT a bad team....they stayed close to Ohio State....oops here comes the Ohio State sucks stuff.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not even convinced that he is a franchise QB.

He looked great the other night, but his competition didn't exactly "WOW" me. Bowling Green is not a good team.

I'm not convinced yet either. I'm not going to be worried away by the competition, but I do want to see exactly what his measurables are...specifically his 40 time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Shane H
Entirely to much stock put into that.

Just tell Pennington, or Mcnair etc.....

Football is still football and this kid is very impressive JMHO!

But Penington wasn't drafted with a top five pick, and he wasn't necessarily considered a slam dunk when he was picked.

McNair was, but he has amazing athletic ability. Ben literally looked about as fast as Dave Brown the other night. I had heard he was a really good athlete, but other than his throwing ability, I was wondering why anyone said that.

As Stout said, his workouts are crucial. If he runs in the 4.7-4.8 range, my interest will be piqued.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout
I'm not going to be worried away by the competition,

I'm not going to be worried, I just wouldn't want us to draft him.

I don't care what people say, competition is still important to some degree. Manning played better competition EVERY week.

The SEC, as Harry pointed out, has much better corners and much better passrushers. Manning has faced NFL caliber competion already, while Ben has faced maybe a few NFL caliber players.

 

[Snakester]

Re: Franchise

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
I guess it's your definition of franchise.

Mickey D's is a franchise but we're not talking about that.

My defintion is someone who can take you to the playoffs.

Blake can't.

McCown can't.

Parsons can't.

Pennington can.

Lewftwich can.

Which leads to my final point (thank God you say) which is that Big Ben is every bit a QB just as good as Lefty and Penny.

And by the way BG is NOT a bad team....they stayed close to Ohio State....oops here comes the Ohio State sucks stuff.

I agree with ya Buckeye, I think Roethlisberger is every bit as good as Pennington or Leftwich.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not going to be worried, I just wouldn't want us to draft him.

I don't care what people say, competition is still important to some degree. Manning played better competition EVERY week.

The SEC, as Harry pointed out, has much better corners and much better passrushers. Manning has faced NFL caliber competion already, while Ben has faced maybe a few NFL caliber players.

I, too, think Manning is much better. If he's off the board, though, at this point in time, I think we'd damn-well better look really hard at Whowouldjacallit.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout
I, too, think Manning is much better. If he's off the board, though, at this point in time, I think we'd damn-well better look really hard at Whowouldjacallit.

I wouldn't. Too much risk.

I'd rather wait for another QB. When you are picking in the top three, you have to find a legitimate franchise player.

I'm not sure that Roetherererererer is that type of player. He kind of reminds me of Kerry Collins, and I certainly wouldn't draft Collins in the top three.

 

[Assface]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not sure that Roetherererererer is that type of player. He kind of reminds me of Kerry Collins, and I certainly wouldn't draft Collins in the top three.

Collins led the Panthers to the 2nd round of the playoffs in his second year and was playing at a probowl level untill he drank himself out of the league. Since he came back with the Giants he's been playing at a very high level again and took the team to the Superbowl. I would draft him or a similar QB in the top 3. My number 1 choice is Manning. He's as low risk as you can get and I think he will be a very good QB. If he's gone I would take Roethlisberger as the consolation prize, assuming he tests well. As long as he doesn't throw up any Leaf style mental red flags he can be a top QB. I would fell much better about drafting Manning and would like to see the team trade up for him if we are within a few spots so we wouldn't have to give up too much, but if we are out of the top 5 take the #2 QB or CB/DT/DE.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Assface
Collins led the Panthers to the 2nd round of the playoffs in his second year and was playing at a probowl level untill he drank himself out of the league. Since he came back with the Giants he's been playing at a very high level again and took the team to the Superbowl. I would draft him or a similar QB in the top 3. My number 1 choice is Manning. He's as low risk as you can get and I think he will be a very good QB. If he's gone I would take Roethlisberger as the consolation prize, assuming he tests well. As long as he doesn't throw up any Leaf style mental red flags he can be a top QB. I would fell much better about drafting Manning and would like to see the team trade up for him if we are within a few spots so we wouldn't have to give up too much, but if we are out of the top 5 take the #2 QB or CB/DT/DE.

Really? You think that if the Panthers, or hell the Giants had a choice of using a top three pick on Collins, that they would do it again?

I don't. There are easily 10 Qbs better than him, IMO maybe even 20.

People are acting like this is the last chance that we will ever have at taking a franchise QB. We have to take the best player, regardless of position.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I wouldn't. Too much risk.

I'd rather wait for another QB. When you are picking in the top three, you have to find a legitimate franchise player.

I'm not sure that Roetherererererer is that type of player. He kind of reminds me of Kerry Collins, and I certainly wouldn't draft Collins in the top three.

You wouldn't look at him? Wow, that's pretty damn shortsighted.

What you're saying is, no matter what happens between now and then, no matter HOW good he does in workouts, how good his measurables are, you wouldn't even LOOK at the kid? No offense, but I'm glad you aren't our GM!

I didn't say we SHOULD take him. We need to consider it, IMO. My take is you're completely biased against him because of his competition, and no matter what happens, you won't become convinced otherwise.

 

[RedStorm]

It's all a crap shoot. We need a QB. Manning or Roth.

However, I betcha we trade down and bank pics if Parsons or McCown do well.

 

[Solar7]

Really though, McCown has good measureables himself. He's tall, has a strong arm, and runs pretty well. But, as we've seen, his decision making and mindset don't seem to equal his measureables. Much as the Leaf debacle went when Peyton came into the league, I think Eli Manning is the much better QB, if just for his preparedness for the NFL.

--Solar

 

[Bobcat]

Re: Franchise

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
I guess it's your definition of franchise.

Mickey D's is a franchise but we're not talking about that.

My defintion is someone who can take you to the playoffs.

Blake can't.

McCown can't.

Parsons can't.

Pennington can.

Lewftwich can.

Which leads to my final point (thank God you say) which is that Big Ben is every bit a QB just as good as Lefty and Penny.

And by the way BG is NOT a bad team....they stayed close to Ohio State....oops here comes the Ohio State sucks stuff.

Now how do you know that Parsons CAN'T!!! He hasn't had a chance yet to play in a regular season game. Some of you guy's on thes board really don't have a qlue pn the real talent we do have on this team and once had on this team. You sound like our coaching staff. Damn, get off of the Eli kick. Unless we finish last he will not be there when it is time to draft. Other teams with more talent then what we have will trade-up to get him. Ben R. would probably be there if we keep on loosing. I hope that we would find out that Parsons in our QB of the future. That way we could then draft a player who could make an immediate impact for next season, not 3 to 5 seasons down the line.

Allan

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout

You wouldn't look at him? Wow, that's pretty damn shortsighted.

What you're saying is, no matter what happens between now and then, no matter HOW good he does in workouts, how good his measurables are, you wouldn't even LOOK at the kid? No offense, but I'm glad you aren't our GM!

He has to prove himself in my eyes. Whether it's through workouts or allstar games, I haven't seen enough of him to form a solid opinion either way.

I'm just not going to jump on his bandwagon after one lousy game, that's all. I remember how you told me that I was stupid for thinking that Boldin would have 60 catches....

Originally posted by Stout
I didn't say we SHOULD take him. We need to consider it, IMO. My take is you're completely biased against him because of his competition, and no matter what happens, you won't become convinced otherwise.

And your opinion is wrong. I'm not biased against him one bit, I'm just not impressed with a blow out win over a second rate college program. Everyone on here is ready to anoint him as a franchise QB, and I can't make that judgement.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
He has to prove himself in my eyes. Whether it's through workouts or allstar games, I haven't seen enough of him to form a solid opinion either way.

I'm just not going to jump on his bandwagon after one lousy game, that's all. I remember how you told me that I was stupid for thinking that Boldin would have 60 catches....



And your opinion is wrong. I'm not biased against him one bit, I'm just not impressed with a blow out win over a second rate college program. Everyone on here is ready to anoint him as a franchise QB, and I can't make that judgement.

Well, if he 'proves' himself, what say you then? Will you actually change your mind? The way you talk, there is NO way you would change your mind. Just my perception, but you seem to be very down on the kid.

Not that I myself am ready to annoint him as a franchise QB. Far from it! I've not seen him play, and I've only read hype about him, either positive or negative.

I DO know that if you're going to use the lesser competition argument as your sole basis, then you're off base. His conference has proven to have solid NFL QB talent. Perhaps not on a consistent basis, but enough so that when you see a steller player like a Pennington, Lefty, or possibly even Rothamadinger, he shouldn't be immediately written off.

I'm just saying you seem to be convinced he can't be a franchise QB, and I'm convinced to give him a chance to make a believer out of me.

As to saying you were nuts to predict Boldin's performance? Well, since it wasn't based on very tangible grounds, and was more of a hero-worship propoganda-type thing, I don't feel ashamed one bit. Even if it was based solely on playing ability, I will always be pessimistic of a rookie receiver doing so well. It almost never happens. So I was wrong. Oh well, life goes on.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by Stout

As to saying you were nuts to predict Boldin's performance? Well, since it wasn't based on very tangible grounds, and was more of a hero-worship propoganda-type thing, I don't feel ashamed one bit. Even if it was based solely on playing ability, I will always be pessimistic of a rookie receiver doing so well. It almost never happens. So I was wrong. Oh well, life goes on.

Some of us saw it coming.....