salmons or banks?/Toronto's Trade for Salmons Hitting Snag?

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so obviously we got a pretty good player at a very reasonable price. people that have seen these guys better: no BS, what does each bring to the table? scouting reports? youtube clips? anything? I want to know about banks, but i want to also know if salmons might have fit better.

one other question: is it now just a foregone conclusion that banks will come here and play better than he ever has? has the suns system proved itself that much to everyone, that after bell, diaw, jj, q, jones, house, it just goes without saying that talented young players come here and take it to another level?
 
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http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
*look at the #2 PG on there

from the lakers board "forum blue and gold":

June 19th, 2006

As the summer wears on, we’ll try to take a closer look at some of the potential future Lakers, both through free agency or a trade. Generally, I think mid-June is a little too soon for this because we are in the midst of the silly season of draft-day trade rumors. However, the rumors of Laker interest in Marcus Banks seem to have some weight, going back a couple of years and coming from reliable sources. So Banks bats leadoff in this occasional series of quick looks.

Banks is an interesting example of how playing in different cities and different systems can change impressions and the stats of a player. Last season in Boston, Banks was coming off the bench, averaging less thank 15 minutes and 5.5 points per game. Then, after the trade to Minnesota, he averaged 30 minutes and 12 points, was more efficient and caught people’s eye.

The first question about any potential point guard for the Lakers is: Can he play defense? Banks can, but he didn’t last year. In Boston last year he allowed opponents to shoot 48.1% and gave up a PER of 19 (for comparison, Smush allowed opposing point guards shot 52.4% on the season with a PER of 18.7, so Banks and Smush fairly equal). In Minnesota things got a little better for Banks, opposing points still shot 48.1% but the PER fell to 17.9, but those numbers still aren’t what the Lakers need.

However, two seasons ago for the Celtics, Banks held opposing points to 40.2% shooting and a PER of 11.5 — amazing numbers. In his rookie year it was 48,1% shooting and a PER 16.3 for those he covered. Banks has shown he can bet a good defender, he just hasn’t done it consistently. He would have to understand that in LA it would be job #1.

Offensively, Banks in Boston and Banks in Minnesota were two different players — the question is will what he likes to do fit with the triangle?

In Boston this year, Banks shot just 45% (eFG%) and 31.6% from three point range, although he did get to the free throw line a fair amount so his true shooting percentage was 53.5%. In Boston, most of his offense came as the ball handler on pick and rolls (22%), as a spot up shooter (21%) and in transition (18%). Frankly, those are pretty similar to what he will be asked to do in Los Angeles, where Kobe and Odom are the ball handlers and offensive options one and two.

Banks thrived more in Minnesota — he hit 36.4% of his three pointers, shot 50% overall and had a true shooting percentage of 54.5%. All good numbers. But how he got the numbers was different — isolation accounted for 24% of his attempts the pick and roll was 22%, transition 21% and spot up was fourth.

The biggest change was that he found his jump shot in Minnesota — he shot just 34.9% on jumpers in Boston but hit a very good 48.2% in the land of 1,000 lakes. (I wanted to tell you why, but the Synergy video system kept crashing my browser when I tried to watch video, so I couldn’t watch the different kind of looks he was getting.)

As a spot up guy, something he would do more of in LA, he was solid last year — overall he shot 41.2%. In Boston, he shot 53.5% (eFG%) on unguarded catch and shoots (considered good by NBA standards), while in Minnesota that fell to an unimpressive 46.6%. What is odd is that those numbers reverse when you talk about catch and shoots where he is covered — he was bad in Boston (16.7%, in just a few chances) but was very good in Minnesota (51.4%).

What he does well everywhere is drive the lane — when he gets to the basket he shot 57.9% inside and got to the line fairly often. He is good driving right or left, the kind of versatility that makes someone hard to cover.

Bottom line, Banks would be a solid offensive fit in the triangle, a slightly better version of Smush Parker. The question is his defense — was last year a fluke or was the 2004 season the fluke. I tend to think that it is somewhere in between, that Banks would be a good but not great defender. Which, frankly, would be a big improvement and well worth the MLE.

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Ive watched Banks since he was a rookie with the Cs and loved watching every second of it!! Defense will not be an issue with marcus, he brings it every time he steps on the floor…. I cant even count the number of times i have watched him pick the opposing PGs pocket around midcourt and take it in for a dunk on the other end. Hes gott all the tools to be a quality starting point guard and improved 3 point shot sincce hes been in boston, faster that possibly any player in the NBA (seriously…its ridiculous), nice handle, good passer…. only thing that ever concerned me about him is that he isnt the smartest player, sometimes he tries to rely on his physical gifts a little too much, but hes young and i always thought that would improve when he is given a chance to play some meaningful and consistant mins. which he never got in boston, mainly because Doc Rivers had some personal grudge with him….. Doc Rivers is an idiot, he should be coaching Church League ball somewhere, so you laker fans will enjoy havin this guy on your team…. I wish he was still in boston

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I’ve watched Marcus since college at UNLV. Defensively he has the ability to make any guard in the team look silly trying to bring the ball up court. I agree with the sad Celtic fan above. Marcus is awesome on defense. Yes, sometimes it seems as though he tries to do too much offensively just on his physical ability but this usually happens when his team is trailing late and something needs to happen and no one else is making it happen. And when it clicks for him he can literally take over a ball game late in the fourth quarter and turn it around. He is an unbelievable talent. With the Lakers youth and quickness they will get so many more easy points in transition with Marcus pushing the ball instead of Odom walking the ball up court!!
 
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http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_16896.shtml

It is quite a sight to see the number of fans who continue to flock to the Target Center to watch the Timberwolves play at such an advanced stage of a very disappointing season. What keeps the fans coming back? The obvious answer is the privilege that we have as Minnesotans and NBA fans to watch Kevin Garnett play night in and night out. However, another reason is that most true NBA basketball fans see the great promise in the team’s younger players and, more specifically, Marcus Banks.


After sitting two years on the Celtics bench, Banks career stats were nothing too impressive. His career stats are 6.3 points per game, 2.5 assists per game and 1.7 rebounds per game in 18.0 minutes per game. Since joining the Timberwolves in the trade that sent Wally Szczerbiak to the Boston Celtics, Banks has been given the keys to the Timberwolves car and has shown flashes of being an Indy Car driver. In his 35 games with Timberwolves, Banks stats have shot up to 11.4 points per game, 5.0 assists per game and 2.7 rebounds per game in 30.4 minutes per game.


Before yesterday’s game against the Atlanta Hawks I had the opportunity to ask a few teammates and coaches about Marcus...


Teammate and Timberwolves un-official cheerleader Mark Madsen says of Banks, "Marcus is a natural leader. He’s naturally very competitive. He’s got the heart of a warrior. And I think now all he needs is more and more repetitions. I think the fans will continue to see his game expand and entertain these fans with a high level of basketball…when Marcus is in rhythm, he can blow by anybody and get into the paint."


"Marcus’ job is to be our quarterback, to be a leader," adds Head Coach Dwane Casey, "and he’s improving every day."


Assistant coach and former head coach of the Orlando Magic Johnny Davis goes a little more in depth. "The biggest improvement for Marcus has been his decision making on the floor. In terms of when to push it up and when to back it off and get the team into the offense…when to go and try to score himself and when to get the other guys involved into the game. He’s making those decisions much more consistently on the positive side now, as opposed to when he got here. In fairness, he didn’t play a lot when he was with Boston, so he is just now beginning to emerge into what he could potentially become."


"I think with Marcus, because of his extraordinary speed, it allows us to get into more of a transition game and that really works well for us. We want an up-tempo game and I don’t really see that many people, if any, who are quicker up and down the floor than Marcus Banks," adds Coach Davis.


Banks has shown during his brief time in Minnesota that he is more than willing to learn and to be taught. If you arrive to the Target Center an hour and a half before the game, you will see Marcus on the floor working with both Assistant Coach Johnny Davis and Assistant Coach Rex Kalamian on stepping into his shot and following through once the ball is released. Also notice that during nearly all dead ball situations the first things Banks does is to walk over to Coach Casey and discuss what needs to be improved and, most impressively, is that this 24 year old point guard does so on his own. Coach Casey does not need to call him over to chat.


This summer will be a very important one for the Minnesota Timberwolves with every move being scrutinized, analyzed and dissected, but the one more that should not be questioned is that the Wolves need to re-sign Marcus Banks as the point guard of the future for this team. Kevin McHale needs to come through on this and sign Marcus for the long term. He is only going to continue to get better and within a few seasons should be one of the top five point guards in the NBA.


As one of the people who should know Marcus Banks the best because of their time together in Boston and now in Minnesota, teammate Ricky Davis contributes to the conversation…


"He’s had a lot of improvement. It’s as different as night and day. You know, getting playing time, getting guys shots and going out there and having fun. It’s a great learning experience for him and, hopefully, he’ll continue to learn."
 

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I take Banks over Salmons. Of course Salmons is bigger and stronger but he is not proven as a point guard so he did not solve our problems. I hope Banks will give Nash plenty of rest. Best case scenario is that Nash plays about 25-30 minutes per game in regular season. Banks should get at least 20 minutes. Anyway Toronto made a really good deal.
 

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Salmons had the potential to be a great role player for this team.

I think we have signed a real prospect in Banks.
 
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Errntknght

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Lots to like about Banks from reports
uptempo style
muscle strength
good defender, perhaps very good
harrassing opps bringing the ball up
penetrates off the P&R and finishes
decent assist rate and assist/TO ratio

I like the fact that young enough that he could develope into our future PG but still can contribute immediately.
 

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Banks no doubt

better talent and better player

shocked we have managed to get him or close to It and for the price too. I was expecting him to cost the full MLE as were the suns it seems
 

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It was a lot easier for me to get behind Banks than Salmons because I saw him play and didn't see Salmons. As someone who started two different threads on Banks over the past two weeks, I felt he was the best prospect in the free agent market this season for what the Suns needed.

Better than Mike James? Yes, because Mike James would not be willing to come off the bench now that he's a "star". On the flip side, I don't think Claxton is going to ever become more than an average PG while Banks is young enough he might grow into a pretty good one.

BTW, the fact that he's from Las Vegas seems to have played a bigger role than expected. Las Vegas is a lot closer to Phoenix than Houston.
 

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I think Banks is the better player with more potential, but with him the Suns have probably the smallest backcourt rotation in the league. On the brightside the teams I think the Suns will be competing with for a championship don't have real big backcourts either.
 

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George O'Brien said:
BTW, the fact that he's from Las Vegas seems to have played a bigger role than expected. Las Vegas is a lot closer to Phoenix than Houston.

Boston fans are saying Nash was Banks' idol even when he was with the Mavs and he seems eager to learn from him. From what I've read it doesn't seem like there are many guys Banks would accept a backup role to.
 

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I think that one of the biggest decisions in coming to Phoenix, has to be that his family is from Las Vegas and he wanted to be closer to them.

That is also why I am assuming he is willing to take less money.
 

Divide Et Impera

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Banks, by far. He will be our PG of the future. He will learn a lot from Nash and he will also immediately bring a lot to this team....
 

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I have seen both play and I like Banks more on offense and defense, just because he fits the suns better:

Offense: Banks has more speed and a better handle for penetrate and kick and his footspeed in the dribble penetration is more threatening in the pick and roll.
Defense: He can stay in front of the Tony Parkers and Devon Harris type fast points, I dont think Salmons can do that as it would be up to Nash and Leo. Banks can guard 1's and 2's while Salmons can guard 2's and 3's. We already have Marion and Diaw who can guard 3's. This suns team did not have a good defender of 1's, now it does.

Last reason is: who do you think is quicker down the court on the break(especially leading it)??
 

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dreamcastrocks said:
I think that one of the biggest decisions in coming to Phoenix, has to be that his family is from Las Vegas and he wanted to be closer to them.

That doesn't make any sense to me. It is like an hour longer flight from Houston than it is from Phoenix. It isn't like his family is going to make the drive....
 

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thegrahamcrackr said:
That doesn't make any sense to me. It is like an hour longer flight from Houston than it is from Phoenix. It isn't like his family is going to make the drive....

Read the first 3 paragraphs of the AZCentral Article..





Marcus Banks and his family threw a surprise birthday party for his mother Saturday under the guise that she had to attend a meeting with a prospective NBA team.

He topped that surprise this week when the Las Vegas native firmed up plans to play closer to home with the Suns. Banks, who arrived in the Valley on Tuesday night, came to terms with the Suns on a five-year contract worth about $21 million. The deal could be official as soon as Thursday.

"We're honored to be with the Suns and a hop, skip and a jump away," his father, Arthur, said. "We really feel like it's an ideal fit with the Suns' style. Marcus is so ecstatic about it."
 

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Banks is a little of his rocker. He plays like a maniac, sometimes out of control. The fans will love him, because he's a little pocket rocket with a Bell-like chip on his shoulder.
 

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A couple of PARTIAL articles about the Salmons trade.
-------------------------------------------------
Salmons trade to Raptors not official

By PHIL JASNER

[email protected]

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/15088651.htm

This is the story that was supposed to say the 76ers had completed their agreed-upon sign-and-trade deal to send restricted free-agent John Salmons to the Toronto Raptors.
All that had to happen to clear the way was for Raptors guard Andre Barrett to clear waivers, creating a roster spot.
At that point, Salmons - accepting a 5-year contract worth $23 million - would be sent to the Raptors, with the Sixers receiving a $2 million trade exception good for a calendar year, plus a second-round draft choice.
Barrett cleared waivers at 6 o'clock last night.
After that...
Nothing, other than this from Sixers president and general manager Billy King, in an e-mail response: "At this time, there is no trade to announce." He would not elaborate.
No one from either team was saying whether the trade was off or delayed, or what the factors might be. Joel Bell, Salmons' agent, could not be reached for comment.
Salmons had weighed offers from the Phoenix Suns (5 years, $22 million) and the Raptors, but the Suns yesterday signed free-agent guard Marcus Banks to a 5-year deal worth $21 million. A source indicated that the Sixers do not plan to offer Salmons, a 4-year veteran, a new contract.

------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153433434759&call_pageid=969907729483&StarSource=RSS


Salmons deal in limbo
76ers trade hits unknown snags
Leaves club short at two-guard spot
Jul. 21, 2006. 01:00 AM
DOUG SMITH
SPORTS REPORTER


The trade that would have added backup guard John Salmons to the Raptors is in danger.
Word around the NBA yesterday was that serious snags had developed in the transaction with the Philadelphia 76ers.
It's unclear whether Salmons, a free agent, had second thoughts about joining the Raptors for a five-year, $23 million (all figures U.S.) contract or whether Toronto is working on a larger trade and needed the salary cap room or roster spot.
What is clear is that Toronto is nowhere close to announcing the sign-and-trade deal — Salmons for a second-round draft pick and a $2 million salary cap trade exception. It was supposed to be finalized last night, when former Raptor Andre Barrett cleared waivers.
A week ago, Salmons reportedly agreed to the sign-and-trade, turning down an offer from the Phoenix Suns. Phoenix signed free agent guard Marcus Banks yesterday in place of Salmons.
There are few league teams with enough cap room or inclination to offer Salmons the kind of deal the Raptors did.
The Raptors had been expecting the 6-foot-6 Salmons to battle for a spot as the starting shooting guard and act as a backup point guard. Salmons, 26, has spent his four-year NBA career with the Sixers, averaging a career-best 7.5 points, 2.7 rebounds and 2.7 assists a game with Philadelphia last year.
Without Salmons, and without any other moves, the Raptors would begin the season with a point guard tandem of T.J. Ford and Jose Calderon but thin at shooting guard, where Morris Peterson would start with newly acquired Anthony Parker, presumably as the backup. That would create a question mark at small forward, where both Peterson and Parker could play, perhaps leaving the spot to second-year project Joey Graham.
Raptor general manager Bryan Colangelo has said repeatedly that he has several trade balls in the air. One could land him a backcourt player if, as expected, Salmons goes elsewhere.
----------------------------------------------------------------

This trade will probably get done, but something has happened that should not have!
 

SunsTzu

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I'm sure the deal will still go through, but could you just imagine what the reaction would have been had the deal hit a snag with the Suns?
 

Joe Mama

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SunsTzu said:
I'm sure the deal will still go through, but could you just imagine what the reaction would have been had the deal hit a snag with the Suns?

It would be Armageddon.

I wonder if the Phoenix Suns could get John Salmons at a discount now. They still have that trade exception, don't they? :)
 

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Salmons deal may be blowing up

BC's deal with John Salmons may be imploding, from what I read.

If it does fall apart, should we have continued pursuing Salmons? Should we STILL pursue Salmons?
 

fordronken

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Salmons Deal Hits Snag

Edit: Oops, didn't realize it was happening in this thread. Anyway, this could be a big deal. I'm pretty happy with Marcus Banks right now.
 
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fordronken

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Okay. New theory. Colangelo was just pretending to sign Salmons, and once the Suns signed Banks, he called Salmons and said the deal is off. That'd be amazing.
 

nowagimp

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fordronken said:
Okay. New theory. Colangelo was just pretending to sign Salmons, and once the Suns signed Banks, he called Salmons and said the deal is off. That'd be amazing.

If that is true, Colangelo is screwing his reputation with the players AND the agents. If Salmons doesnt get his contract, he'll be pissed, he's already hanging out there with only the raptors offer now. Not a great way to start a relationship with your new team.
 

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Meanwhile, this article says that Banks called the Suns first asking for a deal.

Maybe there's still a Suns discount after all? And maybe Bryan Colangelo doesn't walk on water.


Banks a surprise catch
Guard told agent to contact Suns about desire to back up Nash

Doug Haller
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 21, 2006 12:00 AM


The agent thought his client was nuts, but Michael Higgins phoned the Suns anyway. He had a talented free-agent point guard on his hands - one willing to sacrifice a possible starting gig for a chance to learn from Steve Nash.

David Griffin, Suns vice president of basketball operations, long had figured Marcus Banks was out of the team's price range. He had averaged 12 points, 4.7 assists and 2.9 rebounds in 40 games for the Timberwolves. He was only 24, short in stature but long on potential.

Griffin phoned Suns coach and General Manager Mike D'Antoni and told him about Banks' interest. advertisement




"He would come and be a backup?" D'Antoni asked. When Griffin replied yes, D'Antoni's wish became clear.

"Do it," he said. "Get it done right away."

Griffin relayed these details Thursday after a news conference introduced the sturdy 6-foot-2 Banks into the Suns family, a group trying to come up with the final pieces of a championship puzzle. The two sides had agreed this week on a five-year contract worth about $21 million.

The Suns plan to add 6-10 center Sean Marks next week, giving them 12 players under contract for next season. They have a $3.6 million trade exception that expires Aug. 21, but any major roster maneuvering seems unlikely. No scrambling, Griffin said, only tinkering.

Banks' arrival provides backcourt relief and defensive pressure. Banks said he has the speed to defend 94 feet, pestering ballhandlers enough to disrupt an opponent's offense. Suns Managing Partner Robert Sarver said a Minnesota assistant coach told the Suns: "We know you think Leandro (Barbosa) is the quickest player in the NBA, but I'm going to tell you, we think Marcus is faster."

Banks' opinion of his speed against Barbosa's: "You know what, I'm a competitor, so I'm going to say myself."

Griffin said D'Antoni already is thinking of the possibilities, playing Barbosa and Banks together and moving Raja Bell to small forward at times. He also said Minnesota executive Kevin McHale called to tell him that the Suns had landed a tremendous kid, which is "unusual for a general manager to do," Griffin said.

As for minutes, Banks isn't concerned. He said he feels they'll come sooner or later. For now, he just wants to learn from Nash, the league's two-time MVP.

"Why wouldn't I want to learn from the best?" he said.
 

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