Sarver is threatening to move the Suns to Seattle or Las Vegas

[Western Font]

Ok just tell me

Lets say you make $100k a year but rent a modest cheap flat which has not been rennovated in 20 years. Are you responsible for rennovating it because you can afford it or your landlord who owns it and rents it to you?

It's a flawed analogy because you are talking about a normal rental market where there are many flats and many tenants. But if the flat is up to code, then neither of you is responsible for any renovation. If you as the tenant want a renovation, you can try to negotiate it with your landlord. If the landlord wants to keep you as a tenant or increase their own property value, they may renovate for you. (And probably raise your rent.) If it's a business lease, which would again be a better analogy, you would most likely undertake the renovation yourself, with your landlord's approval, and negotiate some security into your lease arrangement.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Yeah, many commercial tenants are responsible for their own tenant improvement and betterments

If you build out a restaurant in a commercial leased space, but then want to remodel to include a private dining room with its own specialized electric, climate control and independent bathroom you would need permission to make those changes and if it was something where the building would increase in value and marketability then you would try to get them to share in the cost.

They definitely wouldn't bear the whole or majority of it though

 

[MigratingOsprey]

because facts are facts? The Suns arena is the oldest in the NBA and hasn't had any rennovations since 2003.

Not a fact.

Serious question though, have you ever set for into any NBA arena?

 

[Western Font]

Yeah, until next season the Warriors play in the oldest arena. Knicks second-oldest but recently renovated. T'wolves third-oldest and also renovated. Minnesota's renovation cost 140m and the owner paid 43% of it. The Suns deal under consideration is 230m with the Suns paying 35%.

MSG owns the Knicks and the arena (and the Rangers), paid for the 1B renovation itself, but is expected to recoup that within a few years, and will still probably have to move for the city to renovate Penn Station. NYC is a totally different scenario. The new Chase Center in SF is also privately financed.

 

[Mainstreet]

If Sarver would increase his contribution to renovating the arena ever so slightly, it would give the Phoenix City Council cover for approving the matter.

Sarver should be more flexible with the shoddy product he puts on the court.

 

[Covert Rain]

Look, it's going to have to happen. We all know it. We have all seen how this plays out in almost all the sports. Even if they renovate the arena we are going to have to build a new one to keep the team.

Either now or later the city or another city is going to have to build the Suns a new arena. The problem is Sarver sucks as an owner. As long as he is the owner Cities might balk at the notion.

I bet if we ended up getting a new owner with deep pockets....if not Phoenix another city would step up big time.

Either way, if the Suns stay, a new arena is going to happen at some point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's a flawed analogy because you are talking about a normal rental market where there are many flats and many tenants. But if the flat is up to code, then neither of you is responsible for any renovation. If you as the tenant want a renovation, you can try to negotiate it with your landlord. If the landlord wants to keep you as a tenant or increase their own property value, they may renovate for you. (And probably raise your rent.) If it's a business lease, which would again be a better analogy, you would most likely undertake the renovation yourself, with your landlord's approval, and negotiate some security into your lease arrangement.

Agreed, skins analogy is fundamentally flawed. This is more akin to a commercial lease. And in a commercial lease who pays for renovations is always a reflection of bargaining power. My company is the base tenant in an A+ building. Our lease was coming up and it gave us negotiating power to request renovations. The building agreed to some, not others, and agreed to share costs with remaining to retain us. And though we had identified and negotiated a great alternative close by, the attendant monetary and non-monetary costs dictated that remaining was the optimal choice. Now three years into the 10 year lease we found additional needs which required extensive renovations. The building didn’t so much as tell us to pound sand, but were only willing to chip a somewhat meager amount - but they did eliminate a substantial portion of our security due to the fact that the renovations would be an improvement upon the building overall. Ultimately in most commercial lease scenarios there’s negotiating room, but ultimately the tenant bears the lion share of costs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sarver has diminished the value of the suns to the city and younger generation to the point where the loss would be a yawn to many. Could you have ever seen that being the case in the 90s?!? People would have been up in arms.

 

[overseascardfan]

If Sarver would increase his contribution to renovating the arena ever so slightly, it would give the Phoenix City Council cover for approving the matter.

Sarver should be more flexible with the shoddy product he puts on the court.

PHX economy does need the Suns because of the impact on the businesses partners with the arena and the Suns. I've heard 1,200 jobs with $80M in taxable revenue would be at stake if they left Phoenix but Sarver can't do anything without league approval to do so and it's doubtful NBA would move a team out of this market as Phoenix is one of the fastest growing markets in the country.

Sarver is being an idiot trying to plant the relocation fear on taxpayers especially when you are running arguable the worst franchise in the NBA today. Back to your point Mainstreet, if ownership increased their stake in the renovation cost to maybe 50 / 50 split with city and Sarver keeps his mouth shut then I think this bill would get passed with no problem.

 

[elindholm]

Sarver should run some sort of campaign that says "I will put up $125 million" we are asking the city to match that.

"We can make the arena state-of-the-art for $125 million -- and the Lakers will pay for it!"

 

[Mainstreet]

PHX economy does need the Suns because of the impact on the businesses partners with the arena and the Suns. I've heard 1,200 jobs with $80M in taxable revenue would be at stake if they left Phoenix but Sarver can't do anything without league approval to do so and it's doubtful NBA would move a team out of this market as Phoenix is one of the fastest growing markets in the country.

Sarver is being an idiot trying to plant the relocation fear on taxpayers especially when you are running arguable the worst franchise in the NBA today. Back to your point Mainstreet, if ownership increased their stake in the renovation cost to maybe 50 / 50 split with city and Sarver keeps his mouth shut then I think this bill would get passed with no problem.

We agree. This was a stupid move if he planted relocation fears to the Phoenix City Council. Sarver should be giving them reasons to say yes, not no. Even if Sarver had bumped up his offer slightly, I think it would have been a yes vote. The Phoenix City Council simply needed the cover of a better deal.

 

[1Sun]

Jude LaCava was on Doug and Wolf this morning and floated an idea similar to what I have had in mind: Put some more money into renovating the arena and re-brand it as a multi-purpose arena to house both the Suns and the Coyotes. Have both the Suns and Coyotes pitch in, which means less cost for each of the three parties. Keeps the Coyotes from relocating to Houston, solves the dispute between the Suns and the City, allows Sarver to save face and perhaps even look good for once, and revitalizes downtown. A win for everyone.

My aside: And if Sarver continues his abhorrent behavior and refuses to go along, say goodbye to Sarver and the Suns and renovate the arena as the new home for the Coyotes.

Thoughts?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

I don't think either team could play nice enough with each other when it comes to revenue and expense allocation.

One of those things that should work, but would take a lot of guidance by a 3rd party to push through

 

[az jam]

I was originally against funding for a the renovation of Talking Stick arena for Sarver. However, listening to the Doug and Wolf show, I had no idea that there were so many other events than the Suns. It is good for the city of Phoenix not just Sarver. It should be approved.

 

[Chaplin]

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This would be a big deal and further proof that moving the team isn't really a good option for the city.

 

[1Sun]

I was originally against funding for a the renovation of Talking Stick arena for Sarver. However, listening to the Doug and Wolf show, I had no idea that there were so many other events than the Suns. It is good for the city of Phoenix not just Sarver. It should be approved.

Yes, but not for the Suns unless Sarver plays ball. Start trying to put together a Plan B to bring the Coyotes downtown instead, and then see what Sarver has to say.

 

[devilalum]

If Sarver had asked for the reno right after the draft it would have been a slam dunk.


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[devilalum]

The arena is too short for hockey.




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[1Sun]

The arena is too short for hockey.

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It can be retrofitted for it. This was among the options being explored when the Glendale deal was done. It was eliminated as an option when Sarver threw a fit at the prospect of having to share the arena. I don't think Sarver has quite the same leverage now.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is really stupid on Sarver's part. There are huge factors he would have to get over in order to move the team.

1. He has to overcome Jerry Colangelo's clout with the NBA. This might be overblown by some, but it is still something.
2. The relocation fee is estimated to be somewhere around $400 million, which is more than what he is asking the city to pony up. It would be cheaper for Sarver to pay for the entire renovation himself than pay the relo fee.

 

[Covert Rain]

My aside: And if Sarver continues his abhorrent behavior and refuses to go along, say goodbye to Sarver and the Suns and renovate the arena as the new home for the Coyotes.

Thoughts?

Thoughts are this would be horrible. We wouldn't get an NBA team any time soon. Possibly a decade or more. We are not a big market city which means we will be low on the totem poll for franchises.

I can't think of worse outcome.

Sorry but the Coyotes are the lowest on my pro sports totem. Keeping the Coyotes and losing the Suns isn't much of a consolation prize.

 

[Chaplin]

Thoughts are this would be horrible. We wouldn't get an NBA team any time soon. Possibly a decade or more. We are not a big market city which means we will be low on the totem poll for franchises.

I can't think of worse outcome.

Sorry but the Coyotes are the lowest on my pro sports totem. Keeping the Coyotes and losing the Suns isn't much of a consolation prize.

Not that I disagree with your premise, but which big market cities that are larger than Phoenix don't have an NBA team?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Thoughts are this would be horrible. We wouldn't get an NBA team any time soon. Possibly a decade or more. We are not a big market city which means we will be low on the totem poll for franchises.

I can't think of worse outcome.

Sorry but the Coyotes are the lowest on my pro sports totem. Keeping the Coyotes and losing the Suns isn't much of a consolation prize.

We are a big market city. We are the #11 market by population. To put it in perspective,

Seattle is 15
San Antonio 24
Vegas 28
Cleveland 33
OKC 41

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

 

[JCSunsfan]

By the way. Veterans Memorial Coliseum was built in 1965.

It was 23 years old when Colangelo began plans for AWA.
It was 27 years old when AWA opened.

Anyone that thinks that Talking Stick does not need a renovation probably still uses a flip phone and buys stamps.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

By the way. Veterans Memorial Coliseum was built in 1965.

It was 23 years old when Colangelo began plans for AWA.
It was 27 years old when AWA opened.

Anyone that thinks that Talking Stick does not need a renovation probably still uses a flip phone and buys stamps.

Exactly. Is the building going to fall over if it isn't renovated? No, but it is a professional sports arena and should be kept in tip top shape as much as possible. It should also have some state of the art technology available as well. It is absolutely due for renovations/upgrades.