Shawn Marion. Man, myth, Miami, mothballs.

[The_Matrix]

Off TrueHoop, simply an awesome article
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basketball/heat/sfl-flsphyde11sbfeb11,0,2998926.column

All of you guys who have watched and listened to Plastic Man for years... any insight?

 

[jbeecham]

Shawn might be happy right now, but ask him how he feels after the Heat lose 25 of their last 33 games and miss the playoffs. Then he'll opt out of his contract and no one will offer him more than a 5yr $50 million contract (maybe 5 yr $60 million if he's lucky). Then we'll see if he's happy.

 

[Bufalay]

First it was what is wrong with Joe? Now, what is wrong with Shawn? Is there something wrong with the Suns? Why don't these guys want to play with the Suns?

 

[jbeecham]

The problem with Joe Johnson & Shawn Marion is all about ego. Joe wanted to be "The Man" and Shawn always complained about a lack of respect & recognition. This Suns team is about trying to win championships and putting your own personal goals & ego aside to do what's best for the team to win. Shawn could do that on the court most of the time, but off the court he couldn't control his own emotions & desires. When guys like Joe & Shawn & Banks can't put ego aside then they start to make waves in the lockerroom. Amare even does a little of this because he wants to be the best, but he never puts down his team or teammates while doing it. Shawn always came off like his teammates were screwing him over (didn't give him opportunities to shoot) or the coach didn't like him (wouldn't run plays for him), etc. Joe just flat out said that he didn't want to be the 3rd or 4th option on the team and cared more about money and being "the man" than winning.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

First it was what is wrong with Joe? Now, what is wrong with Shawn? Is there something wrong with the Suns? Why don't these guys want to play with the Suns?

If you think your a #1 guy and you play on a team behind two first team ALL NBA'ers its got to get to your ego and make you bitter. at least the way the NBA is presently consitituted. This shouldn't be a surprise. Joe and Shawn were best friends off the court.

This article should be Exhibit A on why we don't need the matrix here in PHX.

 

[da_suns_fan]

The problem with Joe Johnson & Shawn Marion is all about ego. Joe wanted to be "The Man" and Shawn always complained about a lack of respect & recognition. This Suns team is about trying to win championships and putting your own personal goals & ego aside to do what's best for the team to win. Shawn could do that on the court most of the time, but off the court he couldn't control his own emotions & desires. When guys like Joe & Shawn & Banks can't put ego aside then they start to make waves in the lockerroom. Amare even does a little of this because he wants to be the best, but he never puts down his team or teammates while doing it. Shawn always came off like his teammates were screwing him over (didn't give him opportunities to shoot) or the coach didn't like him (wouldn't run plays for him), etc. Joe just flat out said that he didn't want to be the 3rd or 4th option on the team and cared more about money and being "the man" than winning.

Five bucks if you can find me any type of quote where Joe Johnson stated that he wanted to be "the man".

His biggest reason for leaving was that he wanted a max offer which he wasn't gonna get from the Suns.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Five bucks if you can find me any type of quote where Joe Johnson stated that he wanted to be "the man".

His biggest reason for leaving was that he wanted a max offer which he wasn't gonna get from the Suns.

Bro I'm Joes biggest fan ever. But the two sentences you wrote in your post are not mutually exclusive.

We should have paid him and traded Shawn IMHO.

 

[SunsTzu]

Five bucks if you can find me any type of quote where Joe Johnson stated that he wanted to be "the man".

JJ was quoted at Nash's charity game in Toronto that year(he was supposed to play but just made an appearance) that even though he liked them he didn't want to be looked at as Nash/Amare/Marion's caddy.

Maybe it was just a bunch of hearsay since it never made print and was just talked about on radio/TV though. JJ remains one of my all-time favourite players, wish the Suns had signed him to the 6 year 50mil extention he wanted in '04.

 

[msdundee]

Amare even does a little of this because he wants to be the best, but he never puts down his team or teammates while doing it.

Then we'll have to discount the tantrum reported here where Amare came off court in the timeout yelling that LB was a "ballhog" -- comment not directed to Barbosa, but LB was close enough to hear it (along with any fans within earshot as well).
If that was not specifically meant to humiliate a teammate, it would have been better done man-to-man and off court.

 

[hafey]

But he is a ballhog

 

[devilalum]

demon bird moth balls

 

[jbeecham]

Then we'll have to discount the tantrum reported here where Amare came off court in the timeout yelling that LB was a "ballhog" -- comment not directed to Barbosa, but LB was close enough to hear it (along with any fans within earshot as well).
If that was not specifically meant to humiliate a teammate, it would have been better done man-to-man and off court.

But Amare wasn't saying that in the media like Shawn had about teammates. Amare went to the coaches and kept it within the team.

 

[msdundee]

But Amare wasn't saying that in the media like Shawn had about teammates. Amare went to the coaches and kept it within the team.

As I recall, it was reported by a poster here who was at the game and happened to be sitting near the Suns bench, and he said Amare's complaint was directed at other players who didn't seem to know quite how to react. A rant in the middle of a game with a packed arena and a bunch of fans within earshot is not exactly keeping it "within the team."

I thought I'd read pretty much all the sports columnists on most sites. Which teammates did Shawn slam? I must have missed that.

 

[F-Dog]

By the stats (and the statheads, Hollinger and the APBR crowd) Marion is one of the league's top ten players, and my understanding is that he bought into this. In a way, Marion's demands were bigger than Joe Johnson's--Joe wanted a bigger role, but Marion has always wanted top billing, ahead of both Amare and Nash.

I guess he's expecting equal billing with Wade in Miami, too.

 

[jbeecham]

As I recall, it was reported by a poster here who was at the game and happened to be sitting near the Suns bench, and he said Amare's complaint was directed at other players who didn't seem to know quite how to react. A rant in the middle of a game with a packed arena and a bunch of fans within earshot is not exactly keeping it "within the team."

I thought I'd read pretty much all the sports columnists on most sites. Which teammates did Shawn slam? I must have missed that.

Ok, so a fan sitting right behind the bench overheard Amare complaining to his teammates during a game (a legit complaint in that game BTW because LB was gunning). So What??? Nash yells at his teammates all the time during the games telling them where they need to be and what they're doing wrong. Amare didn't grab the PA Microphone and announce to the whole crowd that LB was ball-hogging.

Shawn constantly complained in post-game interviews that he wasn't being involved in the offense, his teammates didn't get him the ball, he doesn't get plays run for him, etc etc. It's always someone's else's fault when he has a bad offensive game. Maybe he's not singling anyone out by name, but it doesn't matter because he's still making it a public issue rather than just saying "I just had a bad game, I couldn't get myself involved in the offense for some reason, I didn't have the energy tonight, etc". Shawn's constant complaint was that no plays were ever run for him and he got his baskets off of hustle by cutting to the basket, crashing the offensive glass & leaking out for fast breaks.......so then why is it someone else's fault when he doesn't bring the hustle and energy and has a bad game......his teammates don't control his energy level (which is how he scores his baskets according to him).

 

[Bufalay]

Shawn constantly complained in post-game interviews that he wasn't being involved in the offense, his teammates didn't get him the ball, he doesn't get plays run for him, etc etc. It's always someone's else's fault when he has a bad offensive game. Maybe he's not singling anyone out by name, but it doesn't matter because he's still making it a public issue rather than just saying "I just had a bad game, I couldn't get myself involved in the offense for some reason, I didn't have the energy tonight, etc". Shawn's constant complaint was that no plays were ever run for him and he got his baskets off of hustle by cutting to the basket, crashing the offensive glass & leaking out for fast breaks.......so then why is it someone else's fault when he doesn't bring the hustle and energy and has a bad game......his teammates don't control his energy level (which is how he scores his baskets according to him).

Nash has been complaining about his teammates after every loss or near loss since the start of last season, but I guess when he does it it's good leadership, right?

 

[Black Jesus]

Marion looks weird in number 7

 

[dodie53]

^
he's wearing 7?
has he been questioned about that?

 

[cly2tw]

You guys still don't get it. Nash is too good that the team could win despite not developing the talents on hand.

JJ was complaining about being just Nash's decoy in the corner, which is certainly bad for a talent guy lik JJ to develop a COMPLETE game. Amare's lowpost game has not had a chance to get developed due to Nash's ball dominance, to the team's benefit for each game at the time I may add. Jefferson, Boozer, West, even Kaman are now better lowpost players. And Dirk blossomed only after separation from Nash.

This is the price that comes along with the style we play built around Nash's talent, and DA's attitude. If you like what you see, you accept the outlook that Amare may never reach his potential under this condition. However, I could care less if we get a championship this way.

 

[dodie53]

over developed Amare <<< championship

 

[msdundee]

"Shawn constantly complained in post-game interviews that he wasn't being involved in the offense, his teammates didn't get him the ball, he doesn't get plays run for him, etc etc."

"Constantly"? Unlike some, 95% of Marion's post game comments, whether positive or negative, were not full of "I" and "me" -- it was "we."

"Shawn's constant complaint was that no plays were ever run for him."

There's that "constant" again, gross exaggeration.

"...so then why is it someone else's fault when he doesn't bring the hustle and energy and has a bad game."

You probably have more than enough fingers to count the games in any season when he didn't "bring the hustle and energy" and had a bad game (which on this board translates to a low point total -- forget everything else). Regardless, I really don't recall any interviews where he shifted blame on his teammates if he had an off night.

At any rate, Marion's gone now so this discussion is irrelevant. Sounds like the pick-a-player-to-hate club has redirected their own boundless hustle and energy to blasting Barbosa for the rest of the run. If he makes a bad decision or flubs a play, they'll beat him to death. If Amare makes a bad decision or flubs a play, blame it on Nash and the system that's holding him back (and then end the post with "Period" or "End of story" or "Simple as that") so the rest of us understand that we just don't get it.

All just part of why we get addicted to message boards.

 

[Hat]

At any rate, Marion's gone now so this discussion is irrelevant. Sounds like the pick-a-player-to-hate club has redirected their own boundless hustle and energy to blasting Barbosa for the rest of the run. If he makes a bad decision or flubs a play, they'll beat him to death. If Amare makes a bad decision or flubs a play, blame it on Nash and the system that's holding him back (and then end the post with "Period" or "End of story" or "Simple as that") so the rest of us understand that we just don't get it.

Thank you for saying that!! I am glad someone else realizes what's going on too. Something I've been shouting about all season.

 

[jbeecham]

"Shawn's constant complaint was that no plays were ever run for him."

There's that "constant" again, gross exaggeration.

I've heard Shawn complain about this dozens of times and by constant I mean that he said it pretty much every time he was interviewed after he had a sub- 10 point game and the interviewer questioned why he didn't score more. It was his go-to excuse. Hell, even in Miami he's bringing up how the Suns never ran plays for him......if you watched his 1st game then you should've heard the announcers talking about it. Riley asked him what kind of plays he liked to run in Phx and his response was that we never ran plays for him.

Here's what I don't get.....does Shawn understand what running a play means? Does he think the coach has to design a play where he is the only option to score and everyone else must be a decoy in order for the play to be run for him? Does the Diaw alley-oop to Marion play not count as a play run for Shawn in his mind? Does Shawn running the pick & roll with Nash and slipping the screen for an easy dunk not constitute running a play for Shawn? The bottom line is that Shawn is a poor offensive player and it's hard to setup plays for him that don't involve dunking the ball, because that's the only high percentage shot he has on the floor. His mid-range game sucks and he's a poor 3pt shooter. Maybe he shoots a decent % on his funky runners, but they don't keep a separate stat for that. I'm sure you'll bring up that Shawn is shooting 48% for his career and the response to that is that 70% of his made baskets are dunks and layups so his % should be higher.