Should Whiz be fired?

[gmabel830]

Agreed..... Fire Graves now and promote Keim. Let Keim fire Whiz and promote Horton to the interim coach for the rest of the season and see what happens. If Horton looks like a keeper. You re-sign him.

Keim will be in charge of this years draft and will be on a short leash through next season.

I certainly understand why Keim and Horton are as well thought of as they are, but I wonder how well promoting from within at the GM & HC (even interim) would really work given the current state of the franchise.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Agreed..... Fire Graves now and promote Keim. Let Keim fire Whiz and promote Horton to the interim coach for the rest of the season and see what happens. If Horton looks like a keeper. You re-sign him.

Keim will be in charge of this years draft and will be on a short leash through next season.

i don't want ANYONE involved with this team making any kind of draft calls/head coaching calls. It's time for a new, LEGIT GM to be brought in and let him call ALL the shots. doing anything else seems like half measures to me.

 

[az jam]

i don't want ANYONE involved with this team making any kind of draft calls/head coaching calls. It's time for a new, LEGIT GM to be brought in and let him call ALL the shots. doing anything else seems like half measures to me.

Stop being so logical. Remember when Denny Green got fired, Rod Graves got a new contract and a promotion.

 

[Dayman]

i don't want ANYONE involved with this team making any kind of draft calls/head coaching calls. It's time for a new, LEGIT GM to be brought in and let him call ALL the shots. doing anything else seems like half measures to me.

Exactly.

This offense is disgraceful. I don't want to keep anyone who was involved with building it.

 

[Dr. Jones]

i don't want ANYONE involved with this team making any kind of draft calls/head coaching calls. It's time for a new, LEGIT GM to be brought in and let him call ALL the shots. doing anything else seems like half measures to me.

Who do you have in mind? Casserly? Cowher?

What GM could we bring in that would be able to assemble his staff, and get evaluations complete for a draft less that 4 months later? Keim could atleast keep some sort of continuity in the short term as we pass the torch long-term to a new regime.

Holmgren / Reid???? lol

What are some of the names out there?

 

[WildBB]

I really like what Horton's done, but to be honest, if this team is EVER going to REALLY move, forward, the entire staff is gonzo, because moving forward means actually bringing in a LEGIT GM and that GM is going to bring in a new head coach and that Head Coach is going to bring in his own DC.

or do we want to do exactly what we did last time, where for some ridiculous reason, the team basically forced Clancy Pendergast on Wiz? Now, I know Horton is LIGHT YEARS better than Clancy and I'm not making a comparison. I just know that in the NFL, when you have as much dysfunction as this team does, you need to completely clean house and whoever's gonna be put in charge up top is going to want his guys in here.

We're pretty much talking about a whole new team (other than 5-6 players) then a whole new five yr. plan....

Or interview then hire Horton after he gives you the answers you need, but letting him know personnel decisions are first the GM's job with Horton's input taken into strong consideration. Especially regarding coaches.
Then hire and give the reigns to a hands on GM with the condition that the new coach is in place. One the FO is really high on. At least this way you keep the continuity you have on the D side.

 

[WildBB]

Now all that being said re: new coach/Horton, there is one guy out there who may be a good fit if you are ready to make a move at HC but really want to keep Horton as DC if he doesn't get another job -- Bruce Arians. Guy coached with Horton for many years in Pittsburgh, is familiar with the defense, and has done excellent with the Colts this year (having Andrew Luck hasn't hurt). I'm sure the board would be thrilled with the Pittsburgh connections too!!

Seriously, what are the chances that Horton doesn't get a HC job this off season! I'll take any wager against.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Who do you have in mind? Casserly? Cowher?

What GM could we bring in that would be able to assemble his staff, and get evaluations complete for a draft less that 4 months later? Keim could atleast keep some sort of continuity in the short term as we pass the torch long-term to a new regime.

The idea that a laughingstock needs some kind of continuity makes very little sense to me. The FO and head coach have been a failure, plain and simple. Elevating Keim for a year in the short term and putting him in charge of not only hiring a new HC AND overseeing what will need to be a GREAT draft with high picks, only to then bring in a new GM... who won't have his own HC or his own draft behind him just isn't the way a good football does business.

do I know the names? not off-hand, but it's not my job to.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Seriously, what are the chances that Horton doesn't get a HC job this off season! I'll take any wager against.

Avatar for the summer?

 

[Dr. Jones]

The idea that a laughingstock needs some kind of continuity makes very little sense to me. The FO and head coach have been a failure, plain and simple. Elevating Keim for a year in the short term and putting him in charge of not only hiring a new HC AND overseeing what will need to be a GREAT draft with high picks, only to then bring in a new GM... who won't have his own HC or his own draft behind him just isn't the way a good football does business.

do I know the names? not off-hand, but it's not my job to.

Well...... I get your point.

However.... Singletary made the Niners a laughingstock as well. All it takes is the right coach/system to bring a talented group together. With the parity in the league, one good QB combined with a competent pass rush & pass protection unit could mean 10 wins IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We're pretty much talking about a whole new team (other than 5-6 players) then a whole new five yr. plan....

Or interview then hire Horton after he gives you the answers you need, but letting him know personnel decisions are first the GM's job with Horton's input taken into strong consideration. Especially regarding coaches.
Then hire and give the reigns to a hands on GM with the condition that the new coach is in place. One the FO is really high on. At least this way you keep the continuity you have on the D side.

this is just ridiculous to me. The MOST important job of a GM is picking his HC and here we're going to try and go out and get a great GM... but force a HC on him? no GM worth jack squat would come here under those conditions. I mean... you're basically hamstringing a GM from the beginning with decisions from the previous failed regime.

and a GOOD GM who brings in a GOOD HC doesn't need five years for jack squat. Teams can turn around their entire franchises within one year, two years max.

 

[az1965]

Graves will not be fired. Count on it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

and let me be very clear... I'm not saying Horton HAS to go. If a new GM/HC would want to keep him on, all the better. But the idea that Horton comes before a bona-fide GM (if one exists) just doesn't hold water for me. A great GM who actually knows football can set a team up for a decade. Sacrificing that for a good DC is short-sighted IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

I still don't think Whis should be fired. I think that his wings'll be clipped--Miller and Grimm are gonzo.

I don't get the love for Keim. Do you want to promote the guy who identified Levi Brown, Beanie Wells, Cody Brown, and all those late-round offensive linemen that didn't work out? Do you want the guy that greenlighted Ryan Williams ahead of Brooks Reed? I get that he's the best that we've got, but I'm not certain.

Graves does what he does--run contracts and makes sure that everyone gets along. There's more clarity within Hardy Drive than is apparent on the outside.

Ultimately, Whis is a really good administrator. Even-keeled. He actually runs a good program where guys stay clean. I don't think that anyone on this roster has quit on him, even after 7 straight losses. That means something.

The cost of going with 6 different starting QBs in 3+ years is that you don't get to keep your friends around anymore.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I still don't think Whis should be fired. I think that his wings'll be clipped--Miller and Grimm are gonzo.

I don't get the love for Keim. Do you want to promote the guy who identified Levi Brown, Beanie Wells, Cody Brown, and all those late-round offensive linemen that didn't work out? Do you want the guy that greenlighted Ryan Williams ahead of Brooks Reed? I get that he's the best that we've got, but I'm not certain.

agreed with this.

Graves does what he does--run contracts and makes sure that everyone gets along. There's more clarity within Hardy Drive than is apparent on the outside.

I don't know if this is truly the case. We've heard about a restructuring, but are we really to believe this horror show has no input anymore? I'd be just as happy to know he DEFINITELY doesn't and his ass shown the door, for fear that with a new GM, he'd somehow be depended upon again for "continuity" sake.

Ultimately, Whis is a really good administrator. Even-keeled. He actually runs a good program where guys stay clean. I don't think that anyone on this roster has quit on him, even after 7 straight losses. That means something.

The cost of going with 6 different starting QBs in 3+ years is that you don't get to keep your friends around anymore.

on most teams it would mean you don't get to keep your job anymore... especially with one year left on your deal looking at a cornerstone draft position.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know if this is truly the case. We've heard about a restructuring, but are we really to believe this horror show has no input anymore? I'd be just as happy to know he DEFINITELY doesn't and his ass shown the door, for fear that with a new GM, he'd somehow be depended upon again for "continuity" sake.



on most teams it would mean you don't get to keep your job anymore... especially with one year left on your deal looking at a cornerstone draft position.

As I said on another thread--you can't really fire the guys you have unless you know that you're replacing them with someone better.

This team has 8+ players on IR--we were playing our 4th string OLB this afternoon. Adrian Wilson got benched and for some reason Justin Bethel was playing because he's learned the NFL game 10 months after playing for Presbyterian. That's a problem.

Do I think that Michael Lombardi or Scott Pioli or Bill Polian would do a better job than Graves? That's not a question that I can really answer. What I can say is that I've heard for years now that Graves doesn't take much of a scouting role in the organization, for better or for worse. We've turned over the pro personnel department since free agency--the haven't been able to show what they can do.

What I do believe is that I'm less pissed about Ryan Williams being an injury case than I would be if Fitz, Campbell, Daryl Washington, or Darnell Dockett had left in free agency. This team is more talented at maybe every defensive position than the Super Bowl team.

If I thought that we'd be committed to the next quarterback we draft for 5+ years because of his contract, I'd probably be more on-board with a total house cleaning. But this organization was 8-8 last year, and we're more talented this year if we're healthy.

I don't think we draft a quarterback in the first round--or at least with our Top 10 pick. I think that the Week 1 starter for the Arizona Cardinals is Kevin Kolb (if healthy). That being the case, make Whis continue to suffer for what he's done.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As I said on another thread--you can't really fire the guys you have unless you know that you're replacing them with someone better.

This team has 8+ players on IR--we were playing our 4th string OLB this afternoon. Adrian Wilson got benched and for some reason Justin Bethel was playing because he's learned the NFL game 10 months after playing for Presbyterian. That's a problem.

Do I think that Michael Lombardi or Scott Pioli or Bill Polian would do a better job than Graves? That's not a question that I can really answer. What I can say is that I've heard for years now that Graves doesn't take much of a scouting role in the organization, for better or for worse. We've turned over the pro personnel department since free agency--the haven't been able to show what they can do.

What I do believe is that I'm less pissed about Ryan Williams being an injury case than I would be if Fitz, Campbell, Daryl Washington, or Darnell Dockett had left in free agency. This team is more talented at maybe every defensive position than the Super Bowl team.

If I thought that we'd be committed to the next quarterback we draft for 5+ years because of his contract, I'd probably be more on-board with a total house cleaning. But this organization was 8-8 last year, and we're more talented this year if we're healthy.

I don't think we draft a quarterback in the first round--or at least with our Top 10 pick. I think that the Week 1 starter for the Arizona Cardinals is Kevin Kolb (if healthy). That being the case, make Whis continue to suffer for what he's done.

dude, the only one's who are going to suffer at that point will be us, Larry Fitzgerald and the Defense.

if you're telling me there aren't more qualified people out there than the idiots running this organization, then I might as well not watch football.

 

[kerouac9]

dude, the only one's who are going to suffer at that point will be us, Larry Fitzgerald and the Defense.

if you're telling me there aren't more qualified people out there than the idiots running this organization, then I might as well not watch football.

I could really give a crap if Larry Fitzgerald suffers. He's (IMO) the primary driver in us bringing in Kevin Kolb to begin with, and the reason why we're so consistently cyclying through QBs--Fitz didn't have problems with Skelton when he was dropping dimes on him last season.

I think that we might have cycled out a lot of the idiots who were working in this organization--the types that went from cutting promos for Calvisi and Wolf to managing the salary cap (it's stunning that this happened). The issue is that the Cards are a resouce-limited organization. Whis is working on a contract, as is Horton. I think that Graves recently extended, as well. If we bring in new people, they're going to be less expensive than the guys we have.

Until this organization is a perpetual-motion machine like Pittsburgh's is, I'm almost happier cycling guys in and out as their contracts die away--except for cheap guys like Miller and Grimm. You get to build on your identified strengths and have fewer variables about people who aren't working.

Let's be real--the Cards aren't going to eat whatever is left of Graves' contract and then shell out 2x as much per annum for his replacement.

 

[Stout]

K9, I have to disagree. First, it doesn't matter if you make KW get rid of his guys, because whoever is brought in to replace them will be overpowered by KW. He may be an able administrator, but he thinks he's a super-genius, and clearly he is not. If you clip his wings so that he can't rule the roost over his new coaches, the friction will kill the team.

Also, coaches that lose 6 in a row in a season, twice in a row, and then at least 7 in a row in the third season, do not get leeway. At all. Because good coaches don't suffer seasons in a row like that.

The most important reason I disagree with you, though, is because we're going to get that high draft pick. It can be a make-or-break pick, and I don't want to give KW 'one more season' to fail, and let him screw that up in the process.

 

[Native Az]

You can't lose this many games in a row, this many seasons in a row, in a league where every team has a chance to be good. This is not baseball or basketball where only the big market teams have a chance at a title.

Kenny has to go!

 

[Mulli]

Whiz should start fearing the fork. It is time to stick a fork in him because he is done.

 

[Chopper0080]

I pretty much agree with everything K9 has said. You force coaching changes on Whis, address issues in FA and the draft, and hope the ship gets corrected. If not, you clean house from the top down. I agree the Cardinals have created some of their issues, but when you lose your most productive QB, your LT, and have several vets who have underperformed, it is hard to overcome.

 

[Mulli]

I pretty much agree with everything K9 has said. You force coaching changes on Whis, address issues in FA and the draft, and hope the ship gets corrected. If not, you clean house from the top down. I agree the Cardinals have created some of their issues, but when you lose your most productive QB, your LT, and have several vets who have underperformed, it is hard to overcome.

It is hard to overcome because the entire organization has failed. Time to hit the dump button.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

It is hard to overcome because the entire organization has failed. Time to hit the dump button.

Don't know about that - haven't they been changing the personnel staff over the last two years? From our perspective - we don't know what has REALLY been changing. I do know that we FINALLY started to draft OLine and these guys don't look terrible. If that is a result of those changes, then why throw out everything? Just fix the problem which we can all see - the offensive coaching, possibly the head coach. Why not do it incrementally, and as K9 states, leave the option to Whiz to accept the changes?

 

[conraddobler]

My vote has changed to yes.