Simmons is a safety, not a linebacker

[BritCard]

Britcard, this really isnt complex... which position did he register the most snaps at?

Linebacker, safety, or corner?

Safety. 2 full seasons and a chunk of this year. Most if you include slot which is not unusual for a safety to cover.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't even agree with Brit, but this is oversimplification at its finest. He believes that he will get most of his snaps as a safety and is projected to be a safety. I don't agree, but he isn't trolling.

Projected by a crowd of one: BritCard.

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

Safety. 2 full seasons and a chunk of this year. Most if you include slot which is not unusual for a safety to cover.

well per PFF he played most snaps at linebacker in 2019. would be curious to see his snap count the previous years, although I would discount those for being dated. players change over time.

also, a lot of plays where he is defending the slot he is an OLB not a safety.... I fear you just see him in the slot and start screaming "safety safety!!!" I played OLB and was in the slot all the time... slot coverage isnt mutually exclusive to one position....

I'll go with the PFF numbers over Britcard and his bunk personal stats. I'm not ripping you for your opinion that he'll be a safety. I'm ripping you for the categorically false snap count numbers you are tossing around.

 

[Sunburn]

I don't get it. Didn't this guy win the Butkus award for best linebacker in the country?

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

I don't get it. Didn't this guy win the Butkus award for best linebacker in the country?

no you get it, there's one person who doesnt

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't get it. Didn't this guy win the Butkus award for best linebacker in the country?

Yes, but unlike BritCard they were drunk, drugged and confused.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes, but unlike BritCard they were drunk, drugged and confused.

I'm not sure why people are giving him a hard time. Especially since this is the team that moved Reddick inside where he struggled mightily and Buchanon as a LB when no one else saw that coming.

 

[Tacticool Nerd]

Says 27 post guy

In my 1000 posts here has anyone ever known me to troll?

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize it took 1,000 posts to ignore that you've been corrected 4 times that Simmons has played 400 snaps at linebacker last year while you continue to say he played his most snaps at safety WHILE HE WON A AWARD FOR BEST LINEBACKER.

So what he played safety TWO seasons ago. His body grew and the coaches put him in a position to succeed. Guess what? Bodies mature and change in college but I'm sure you knew that.

 

[cardncubfan]

He isn't trolling. He has a difference of opinion.

I wasn't inferring that he was.

 

[cardncubfan]

That must be why I have as many likes as posts.

Is this what we do round here now on a "discussion" forum? Instead of debating and discussing we just call people trolls?

I don't know why you think I'm saying you are trolling. I'm just referring to your post count statement. To me I took as you have more posts so you must be correct. Just like your above statement. Just because you have just as many likes as posts doesn't mean squat. It doesn't make any particular post more valid than another. It's just an odd statement.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I wasn't inferring that he was.

I may have quoted you, but I didn't necessarily mean you. He has been accused of trolling on this very page.

 

[DumboD]

In my opinion, would someone please declare BritCard the winner of this debate? As with most debates and discussions, at some point action has to be taken or the same points keep getting repeated over and over again.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Why would you have him at WIL? We want him to cover TE's and WIL is on the opposite side.

I don't care if he plays LB or SS. I'm sure he could be great at both. I simply believe that his skill set and flexibility better suit SS and that considering Devondre Campbell is a better LB than Thompson is a safety our starting 11 is much better with Simmons at SS.

That is the million dollar question, who's snaps will Simmons take the most? You would think Jalen Thompson, but he started to really play well the last 3-4 games in 2019, seemed like he was in on almost every play in those games. Maybe Simmons will just rotate between Thompson & Campbell? If Campbell or Thompson can't keep TE's in check (Campbell will have that responsibility more than Thompson) Simmons gets more of their snaps? VJ has to find a way to get Simmons on the field though, there's too many things he can do to help our defense.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

If he continues to play like he did last season, Jalen does not need to see his snaps decrease.

Jalen, Budda, & Simmons all need to be rotating roles regularly.

Campbell will get his shot covering TE's first imo, he's only signed to a 1 yr deal so he may be the most expendable player? Simmons will get his chance & I feel strongly that he will win out eventually.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

This is easily the best lineup.

I think Alford is gonna be his old inconsistent-terrible self though & Murphy will have a decent Sophomore campaign so I’d put Murphy in Alford’s spot.

You may be right but if Alford can get back to his SB yr form there's no way Murphy takes his spot? Alford dealt with nagging injuries the next season after the SB. We shall see. I hope he plays great & Murphy just has to cover the slot?

 

[BritCard]

well per PFF he played most snaps at linebacker in 2019. would be curious to see his snap count the previous years, although I would discount those for being dated. players change over time.

also, a lot of plays where he is defending the slot he is an OLB not a safety.... I fear you just see him in the slot and start screaming "safety safety!!!" I played OLB and was in the slot all the time... slot coverage isnt mutually exclusive to one position....

I'll go with the PFF numbers over Britcard and his bunk personal stats. I'm not ripping you for your opinion that he'll be a safety. I'm ripping you for the categorically false snap count numbers you are tossing around.

False snap counts?

He's not playing outside linebacker for us is he? Seeing as in a 3-4 your OLB's are up at the LOS as Edge rushers. So if he's a linebacker he's an inside linebacker. So why would you could his reps as outside backer in college as relevant to what he will be doing for us?

 

[BritCard]

That is the million dollar question, who's snaps will Simmons take the most? You would think Jalen Thompson, but he started to really play well the last 3-4 games in 2019, seemed like he was in on almost every play in those games. Maybe Simmons will just rotate between Thompson & Campbell? If Campbell or Thompson can't keep TE's in check (Campbell will have that responsibility more than Thompson) Simmons gets more of their snaps? VJ has to find a way to get Simmons on the field though, there's too many things he can do to help our defense.

At last, some actual constructive discussion.

The argument so far has been he can still cover tight ends, but he's going to play WEAK side linebacker.

We can still move him around and do different things with him even though as an inside linebacker he has designated gap responsibility. If you want to move him around to confuse the offense then SS is the position like Polamalu, Wilson, Badger etc

Also apparently his snaps at outside linebacker in college count even though he will be an inside linebacker here.

As I started out with, I can't see any other outcome that Simmons takes snaps away from Jalen and Murphy with Hicks and Campbell at ILB. Jalen was ok, he wasn't great. He just looked better in a bad defense. Simmons is a much better strong safety.

We play several teams that use a wide TE on passing downs. That's going to be Simmons a bunch of the time in the slot. The only time I see him at ILB instead of Campbell is on obvious passing downs where the offense doesn't have a wide TE or a TE at all. For now anyway.

I'm not saying in a year or two Simmons he can't move to ILB full time but I can't help feel it would be a waste because you simply can't be as flexible with a guy at ILB as you can with a guy at SS. The star of our defense (when healthy) through the Todd Bowles years was Tyrann Mathieu who from SS could do everything. Our inside Linebackers were Minter and Buc. Buc was out of the league by 26 and Minter hasn't started a game since he was 26.

Simmons can contribute much more to this defense from SS than linebacker.

But as others seem to not want to discuss the football merits I'm happy to move on from this thread.

We can revisit it game 1 when Hicks and Campbell at at ILB and Simmons is playing the Badger role.

 

[Minski]

I don’t want to see him taking snaps from Jalen Thompson, who really impressed me last year, maybe even more than Budda. Ideally for me he lines up as an ILB with Hicks and when we are in nickel Kennard comes off for Murphy.

Peters-Phillips-Allen
Kennard-Simmons-Hicks-Jones
Alford-Baker-J.Thompson-Peterson

that feels pretty good to me. Also hoping Murphy can take a step forward next year and be consistent with those flashes he showed last year and take Alfords job.

 

[GuernseyCard]

In my opinion, would someone please declare BritCard the winner of this debate? As with most debates and discussions, at some point action has to be taken or the same points keep getting repeated over and over again.

So he just wore you down?

Reminds me of the old saw, "Don't argue with a crazy man, he'll just bring you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Not to suggest, BritCard is crazy, but he seems to suffer from idée fixe.

 

[BritCard]

So he just wore you down?

Reminds me of the old saw, "Don't argue with a crazy man, he'll just bring you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Not to suggest, BritCard is crazy, but he seems to suffer from idée fixe.

If someone could present a valid argument other than "But he won the Butkus award" or "He played 400 snaps at linebacker if you include outside linebacker" then maybe I'd change my mind.

It's not as if there isn't a tonne of similar opinion out there to back up what I'm saying regarding how Clemson used him as a linebacker and his weaknesses there.

This was SI's first part of their weakness list,

• Instincts near the line of scrimmage are a work in progress
• Delayed read and respond as inside linebacker
• Hasn't figured out angles and timing as downhill linebacker yet
• Needs to fill out and learn to punch and play off blocks
• Has issues getting unglued from blocking tight ends

Or The Draft Network,

"No reason to pretend he's got experience stepping downhill, stacking offensive linemen, shedding blocks, and presenting in a gap as an off-ball linebacker -- it isn't what he did in Clemson. Rarely aligned between the tackles unless it was at safety"

Or Lance Zeirlien

"He'll miss run fits and can be misdirected due to a lack of instincts near the line"

And there is nothing on tape of him doing typical inside linebacker things.

I very much like Simmons, but there's no evidence of him being a good inside linebacker in our scheme. Nickel linebacker out in the slot sure or weak side outside the tackles in a 4-3 ok.

But inside, with 2 gap responsibility and the ability to diagnose plays, fill gaps etc theres nothing. Pure Reddick like projection. It's also why it's nonsense to say you can just flex him anywhere from linebacker in a 3-4. The precise reason I don't want him at linebacker is you can't just flex a guy from linebacker when that player has gap responsibility. Your flexibility always comes from your DB's, but especially SS.

It's also the exact same reason Reddick sucked at inside linebacker in a 3-4 but was better outside in 4-3. He just didn't have the instincts to read and respond to plays.

But we'll see. Happy to put money on Hicks and Campbell lining up at linebacker though come game 1 (baring injury), and Simmons playing most of his snaps as SS / nickel linebacker / slot. Whatever you want to call it.

 

[Lagerfilled]

While I agree with the merits of both arguments for & against calling Simmons an inside backer, I believe his role won’t be locked into any one specific position except for what we see printed on the roster, depth chart, and media guide. I think we’re getting wrapped around the proverbial axle with what he will be called.

The ongoing topic also seems to assume that we‘re almost always in a base 34 defense and Simmons will be coming downhill on early downs as the WILB or that he will likely replace Campbell since he’s typecast as the WILB. I think those are both foolish assumptions.

I’d be far more interested in a discussion about where IS fits in nickel / dime and who he replaces on obvious passing downs. I suspect we’ll be in those alignments far more than base defense anyway. If I had to guess, Hicks might be the one coming off the field when in nickel / dime with Simmons moving to SILB. Here’s my swag:

DE Kennard / Reddick
DT Peters / Lawrence
DT Phillips / Allen
DE Jones

LB - Simmons
LB - Campbell

DB - Peterson
DB - Baker
DB - Murphy
DB - J Thompson
DB - Alford

What does everyone else think?

 

[BritCard]

While I agree with the merits of both arguments for & against calling Simmons an inside backer, I believe his role won’t be locked into any one specific position except for what we see printed on the roster, depth chart, and media guide. I think we’re getting wrapped around the proverbial axle with what he will be called.

The ongoing topic also seems to assume that we‘re almost always in a base 34 defense and Simmons will be coming downhill on early downs as the WILB or that he will likely replace Campbell since he’s typecast as the WILB. I think those are both foolish assumptions.

I’d be far more interested in a discussion about where IS fits in nickel / dime and who he replaces on obvious passing downs. I suspect we’ll be in those alignments far more than base defense anyway. If I had to guess, Hicks might be the one coming off the field when in nickel / dime with Simmons moving to SILB. Here’s my swag:

DE Allen / Lawrence
DT Peters
DT Phillips
DE Jones

LB - Simmons
LB - Campbell

DB - Peterson
DB - Baker
DB - Murphy
DB - J Thompson
DB - Alford

What does everyone else think?

It's a fair point. I don't know how much we played Nickel last year but the league average seems to be somewhere around 65% if I recall?

But I don't see Simmons lining up inside the tackles in Hicks or Campbells spot, other than a select few sub packages. Simply because a lot of teams (all teams in our division) have tight ends that line up in the slot frequently on passing downs, which is when you would be in Nickel. And you can't line up over a wide TE from inside linebacker.

I imagine that they see him as a nickel linebacker, which may be why they said he's a linebacker. Last year, Budda would often come down into the slot to cover TE's and D.Thompson would sub at FS. So Hicks and Campbell will stay on the field and Simmons would move from SS in base to Nickel linebacker in, erm, nickel.

We want him covering TE's right? That was all the chat pre draft regarding Simmons was his size, speed and covering ability to erase our huge hole at TE coverage.

 

[Covert Rain]

He is going to be moved around a bunch this season. I didn't think I could more excited than last season but I am. I love the off season moves.

 

[GuernseyCard]

If someone could present a valid argument other than "But he won the Butkus award" or "He played 400 snaps at linebacker if you include outside linebacker" then maybe I'd change my mind.

It's not as if there isn't a tonne of similar opinion out there to back up what I'm saying regarding how Clemson used him as a linebacker and his weaknesses there.

This was SI's first part of their weakness list,

• Instincts near the line of scrimmage are a work in progress
• Delayed read and respond as inside linebacker
• Hasn't figured out angles and timing as downhill linebacker yet
• Needs to fill out and learn to punch and play off blocks
• Has issues getting unglued from blocking tight ends

Or The Draft Network,

"No reason to pretend he's got experience stepping downhill, stacking offensive linemen, shedding blocks, and presenting in a gap as an off-ball linebacker -- it isn't what he did in Clemson. Rarely aligned between the tackles unless it was at safety"

Or Lance Zeirlien

"He'll miss run fits and can be misdirected due to a lack of instincts near the line"

And there is nothing on tape of him doing typical inside linebacker things.

I very much like Simmons, but there's no evidence of him being a good inside linebacker in our scheme. Nickel linebacker out in the slot sure or weak side outside the tackles in a 4-3 ok.

But inside, with 2 gap responsibility and the ability to diagnose plays, fill gaps etc theres nothing. Pure Reddick like projection. It's also why it's nonsense to say you can just flex him anywhere from linebacker in a 3-4. The precise reason I don't want him at linebacker is you can't just flex a guy from linebacker when that player has gap responsibility. Your flexibility always comes from your DB's, but especially SS.

It's also the exact same reason Reddick sucked at inside linebacker in a 3-4 but was better outside in 4-3. He just didn't have the instincts to read and respond to plays.

But we'll see. Happy to put money on Hicks and Campbell lining up at linebacker though come game 1 (baring injury), and Simmons playing most of his snaps as SS / nickel linebacker / slot. Whatever you want to call it.

3, 5, 3 - and I'll call #48 what the team says he is.... a LINEBACKER!

 

[kerouac9]

It's a fair point. I don't know how much we played Nickel last year but the league average seems to be somewhere around 65% if I recall?

But I don't see Simmons lining up inside the tackles in Hicks or Campbells spot, other than a select few sub packages. Simply because a lot of teams (all teams in our division) have tight ends that line up in the slot frequently on passing downs, which is when you would be in Nickel. And you can't line up over a wide TE from inside linebacker.

I imagine that they see him as a nickel linebacker, which may be why they said he's a linebacker. Last year, Budda would often come down into the slot to cover TE's and D.Thompson would sub at FS. So Hicks and Campbell will stay on the field and Simmons would move from SS in base to Nickel linebacker in, erm, nickel.

We want him covering TE's right? That was all the chat pre draft regarding Simmons was his size, speed and covering ability to erase our huge hole at TE coverage.

I've scanned the NFL rulebook, and I didn't see this in there. It seems like this happens ALL THE TIME. You can also follow a running back into the slot (or even the outside!) when if and when he motions out there.

If the offense is in a 11-personnel base formation and a TE flexes out, you can use either Simmons or the safety to take the coverage responsibility. You don't really need 2 run-stuffing ILBs in a 3-4; Hicks can fill the hole.

I'm not sure why you insist on making this more complicated than it needs to be. Daryl Washington got swallowed up at the point of attack, as well.