Skkorp's Favorite 2004 Rook All Ready to Fail!!

[kerouac9]

How many scrambling QB`s have won the super Bowl?

John Elway was a great athete, as well. Brett Favre had some out-of-pocket skills (rushed for 200-plus yards in 1993 and 1994).

 

[Russ Smith]

Hadn`t Steve Young by that point in his career become a pass first and run as last resort QB.A QB with great escapeability who relied on his arm more than his feet.

QUOTE]

he became a better passer for sure, but in 94, when they won the Superbowl with him, he had a career high 7 rushing TD's.

Your point is valid, he had 6 years with more rushing yards than he had in 94. But he was more dangerous in the redzone because he was so much better in the pocket teams had to honor that, thus the TD total running the ball.

A pure running QB like Vick now has never won a Superbowl. I don't think Vick will either until he learns to make more plays in the pocket, I do think he's good enough to do so.

 

[BW52]

John Elway was a great athete, as well. Brett Favre had some out-of-pocket skills (rushed for 200-plus yards in 1993 and 1994).

Escapeability and Scrambling to me are two different things.Elway and Favre could evade and make a play by avoiding a sack.players like Fran Tarkenton and Bobby Douglas and Kordell Stewart could scramble around.Bobby Douglass was the Left-handed QB of the bears in the 70`s and he was a better runner than passer.Many QB`s are good athletes and can escape somtimes and make something out of nothing.My point is ;A REAL Scrambling QB has never won the Super Bowl.

 

[Lex]

Beef-

Sorry, I've got this box on my desk that rings every-once-in-a-while.

To answer your question, when faced with trying to counter statistics used to make an argument, sometimes statistics must be used. Doesn't change the fact that I think statistics need to be interpreted to be understood properly.

Kerouac is a "Madden guy." Stats are everything. I tend to judge more by feel, by body language, and look.

Ask anyone, I've left the Jake talk out. You brought the issue up, not me.

I still FEEL like Jake LOOKS good. Frankly, I'm glad most posters think Jake will show his true colors this year without the regular donkeys around him. For sure, no one was giving Jake ANY credit for them making the playoffs last year.

And I still think Michael Vick is the most overrated quarterback in the league.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Beef-

I find it hard to believe you have a friend as smart as Jim Pack, but I'll take your word for it.

okay - that was funny. I don't think I said anything about Jake's "true colors" - I'm just interested to see how he does this year compared to last. There's no doubt that he played well last season - I don't think anyone can honestly doubt that.

I'd still take Vick over him in a heartbeat.

 

[lrk27]

Here's why Micheal Vick is the most overrated player in the NFL.

He's playing out of position, should be a wide receiver.

It doesn't do any good to have a cannon for an arm if you can't hit anybody.

All we've seen of him for the last two seasons, is him grabbing his hammy.

He refused to help his team out, because he wasn't 100% ready yet.

The #1 reason? The Atlanta Falcons had just got a new owner, and the city was not interested in the team. They needed a spark to help ticket sales, so the NFL overhyped Michael Vick to increase interest in the team.

Watch, I predict Michael Vick will be "injured" and on the bench for most of this season.

In those 5 games he appeared in last year, he ranked 50th among quarterbacks in passer rating. He also ranked 50th in completion percentage.

FIFTY-ITH. NUMBER 50. The big FIVE O. (there are only 32 teams right?)

This has to be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. First of all, your argument about him being 50th in accuracy and rating is counting anyone who threw a pass. By that math, Tom Brady was 35th, and LaDanian Tomlinson was the best QB in the NFL (tied with Jeff Miller, P, Tennessee).

3-4 wins a season won't cut it in the NFL.

3-4 wins a season when you play in 5 games (4 starts) is pretty damn good. It was a broken leg, not a hammy that he kept "grabbing" all year.

Having great speed makes it much easier to abandon plays, and get out into risky territory. (his team mates will get sick and tired of this)

Yeah, most guys get sick and tired of a QB who can get out of trouble and move the ball down the field.

Are you even aware that in his one full season, he took a team with marginal talent to the playoffs and beat Green Bay IN Green Bay?

Oh, and he was also 28th in the league (including all RBs) in rushing yards. And led the league in yards per attempt.

When you have a multidimensional QB like Vick, you can't simply measure him by his passing stats. You have to look at his ability to move the ball down the field (the main job of a QB). When healthy, Vick is not only NOT overrated, but arguably the best QB in the game. He is the most valuable single player in the NFL, as showed by Atlanta's abysmal season without him last year. I hope you're prepared to eat your words when a healthy Vick beats your favorite team single-handedly this year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I hope you're prepared to eat your words when a healthy Vick beats your favorite team single-handedly this year.

I didn't know the Falcons were playing the Broncos this year . . . just kidding Lex. Otherwise - another nice SHREDDING of Lex's Lunatical (yes new word - maybe something I'll coin) approximation of Michael Vick's skills.

Besides Lex - I didn't bring Plummer up to really compare him to Vick (there is no comparison) - I was just pointing that that a statistic that you used to discredit Vick as a QB was one you regularly trashed back in the day . . . when one of your major arguments is based on a flip-flop from previous policy it makes you look foolish and delegitimizes your claim - just look at John Kerry or George Bush.

 

[schel]

Yeah, most guys get sick and tired of a QB who can get out of trouble and move the ball down the field.

That's not the point though. I could see his teammates getting sick of it. His linemen would get annoyed by the fact that they have abandon their passblock, pull out and block for Vick. Not knowing where the play is going and constantly looking over your shoulder to see what Vick is going to do next must annoy linemen. Most linemen aren't exactly thrilled about running or change blocking assignments, especially for 3+ straight plays.

Receivers would get annoyed because they aren't getting the ball. If a receiver is open and is constantly being ignored because their QB decides to scramble after 1 second, that's going to build up... especially with the egos of NFL players nowadays.

Backs wouldn't like it because they would want more carries, but Vick is getting most of the yards. RBs for the most part don't want to just be a "change of pace" back.

Now all this is fine and dandy if the team is winning (at least to most players), but imagine the team losing. How are the players going to feel? "We lost because I was open constatnly and they didn't give me the damn ball" and so on. When the team goes into a slump I could see them thinking, "Hey Vick, you're not Superman, you don't need to be 80% of our offense. It's called a team game for a reason".

That's a problem with Vick. Luckily he's been winning, but you can't do all this keeping everybody happy and at the same time without risking injury. It just can't be done. You can't rely on somebody to do everything because once he's gone, that team is screwed. Did anybody imagine how useful Vick might be if he wasn't 80% of the offense? He could end up being much more useful to the team in the correct system. Knowing when to run, knowing how to read defenses, and knowing how to pass the ball... he could be deadlier. Now imagine having 2 guys spying on him and a D-line playing contain... now imagine if Vick knew how to throw a pass. Wow... he could be great! (and healthy)

Now that's my point. I hate to see potential like that go wasted (unless they're playing the Cardinals ).

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's a problem with Vick. Luckily he's been winning . . .

WHAM! The rest of your post needs not be said. No one "luckily" wins at every level they have ever played at. Especially considering what those teams have been like before him, and without him. When's the last time Va Tech was in the National Title Game - what was the Falcons record with and without Vick? Luck has nothing to do with it. The guy is a game changer, plain and simple and to say that this kid who has a cannon for an arm and throws beautiful spirals "can't throw" is just WAYYYYY off base. Is he a great passer - no - is even a good passer yet - debatable - but he's also in his 4th season. I mean Donovan McNabb still can't hit a guy standing still - suppose you think he's making his teamates mad also as they go to Title game after Title game.

The QB position is no longer solely about throwing the ball - Daunte, Donovan and Vick all make this pretty clear.

Luckily - come on now.

 

[schel]

WHAM! The rest of your post needs not be said. No one "luckily" wins at every level they have ever played at. Especially considering what those teams have been like before him, and without him. When's the last time Va Tech was in the National Title Game - what was the Falcons record with and without Vick? Luck has nothing to do with it. The guy is a game changer, plain and simple and to say that this kid who has a cannon for an arm and throws beautiful spirals "can't throw" is just WAYYYYY off base. Is he a great passer - no - is even a good passer yet - debatable - but he's also in his 4th season. I mean Donovan McNabb still can't hit a guy standing still - suppose you think he's making his teamates mad also as they go to Title game after Title game.

The QB position is no longer solely about throwing the ball - Daunte, Donovan and Vick all make this pretty clear.

Luckily - come on now.

Ugh, just a bad choice of words. I meant lucky for his teammates that they aren't in the position to question his style of play, because if they were losing, Vick could easily be the scapegoat. The fact is that he's winning, and not with luck. I'm saying he can't keep it up without killing his career short. That and he could be much better in a new system and style of play. Too many ways to create mismatches...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This thread has gone from bad to worse. Anyone who downplays how good Mike Vick is needs to sit down and watch some football. The guy is obscenely good and has the biggest upside of any QB that has ever played the game. But he's also not Jesus in a helmet that superfan Kerouac likkes to makes him out to be. K9, you said that Pennington cannot throw a 20 yard out, well neither can Vick as the ball would likely end up ten feet over the receivers head or in the ground. He's got the strength to get it there but the accuracy is just not there...yet. That being said, he's easily one of the Top 5 QBs in the NFL and will become the hands-down best when his accuracy improves but if I wanted to win this year and this year only, I'd still hesitantly take McNair or Manning. If I wanted to win for the next ten years I'd take Vick in a landslide.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ugh, just a bad choice of words. I meant lucky for his teammates that they aren't in the position to question his style of play, because if they were losing, Vick could easily be the scapegoat. The fact is that he's winning, and not with luck. I'm saying he can't keep it up without killing his career short. That and he could be much better in a new system and style of play. Too many ways to create mismatches...

oh.

 

[schel]

oh.

My B

 

[earthsci]

I could see his teammates getting sick of it. His linemen would get annoyed...

Receivers would get annoyed...

Backs wouldn't like it because...

schel,
The team gets annoyed at scrambling QBs that gain 3 or 4 yards at a pop. They love one that gains 40 or 50 and scores TDs.

 

[Gnomad]

That being said, he's easily one of the Top 5 QBs in the NFL and will become the hands-down best when his accuracy improves but if I wanted to win this year and this year only, I'd still hesitantly take McNair or Manning. If I wanted to win for the next ten years I'd take Vick in a landslide.

i remember an Eagles QB, back in the day... named something like "Randall Cunningham" who also changed the way the quarterback position was played. ran like a madman, had an incredible arm, nice spirals, yadda. Vick won't last 10 years... UNLESS... he truly embraces his new west coast offense. snap toss march repeat. If Vick continues his ways, we won't see him in 10 years... maybe backing up someone, as Cunningham did.

speaking of cunningham... can Vick punt?