So we are the underdogs at home against Seattle

[Duckjake]

I think you are confused.

I will speak for myself.

I thought the line was horrible with Levi Brown and Brandon Keith as the OT's. With Bridges I thought it would be a little better, with him at RT.

In the offseason (free agency to be accurate) I wanted replacements for both OT's and thought there was opportunity to do so. The Cardinals did not do so.

Now with Levi Brown hurt, and Jeremy Bridges hurt, I still say our line is horrible, but I am certainly not going to say the line got VASTLY WORSE because Bridges and Brown are hurt, and we are putting Batiste, and Massie in their place.

Does that make me a person defending Batiste, Massie, and the whole line for being the best of the best ? No. It certainly does it.

I just see putting Batiste in for Brown a very small regression at the position, and putting Massie in for Bridges a very small progression at the position.

So Brown-Colledge-Sendlein-Snyder-Bridges = Batiste-Colledge-Sendlien-Snyder-Massie. And where we have seen Brown and Bridges full potential, we have yet to see the full potential of Massie or in a lesser case Batiste.

IMHO.

Except for one thing. Continuity. Instead of one new face on the offensive line in Snyder we now have 3. To me that is a huge difference.

 

[BigRedRage]

Mike Sando provided a pretty balanced and impartial analysis on Skelton, Hawks vs. Cards, and Wilson...

link?

 

[az1965]

+1.

The injuries on the Oline are getting a bit overblown.

It is not like Walter Jones, and Anthony Munoz just went down for us.

This has been my point. The drop off is not by much based on what we had and we might actually have improved (by chance). We will wait and see.

 

[az1965]

link?

It is in the audio link in the very first post. It is Seattle radio and Mike appears around 3:52 or so in the show. He first talks about Kevin Winslow's release and then Cards-Hawks.

Should it feel like an upset if the Cardinals win Sunday? We discussed the possibilities Monday on 710ESPN Seattle. Here's the audio. Skip ahead to the 3:57 mark for the lead-in to my segment.

 

[BigRedRage]

oh ok, was searching for text. o well.

 

[kerouac9]

Except for one thing. Continuity. Instead of one new face on the offensive line in Snyder we now have 3. To me that is a huge difference.

Not only that,but until very recently Levi and Bridges/Batiste were taking the first-team reps at those positions. We'll be starting a unit that basically has 15 days of total reps together as a unit, and a handful of preseason reps together.

 

[Russ Smith]

Am I the only one who actually expects to win and maybe easily Sunday?

I just have a feeling Wilson is in for what happens to a lot of rookie QB's, a learning curve.

I watched him against the Raiders, who have a good DL, and he looked mediocre. had a possible TD pass dropped but he really had trouble in that game he looked like a short QB who was having trouble finding lanes to throw in.

I'm more worried about Seattle's defense against us. I think the game will be controlled by the defenses and turnovers and special teams will decide it. Because their QB is a rookie, and we have Peterson, I expect our defense and ST to win the game over theirs.

I think this is going to be one of those games where the QB trying to make plays is going to hurt his team, the guy willing to take what's there and punt will probably win.

 

[jmt]

Am I the only one who actually expects to win and maybe easily Sunday?

I just have a feeling Wilson is in for what happens to a lot of rookie QB's, a learning curve.

I watched him against the Raiders, who have a good DL, and he looked mediocre. had a possible TD pass dropped but he really had trouble in that game he looked like a short QB who was having trouble finding lanes to throw in.

I'm more worried about Seattle's defense against us. I think the game will be controlled by the defenses and turnovers and special teams will decide it. Because their QB is a rookie, and we have Peterson, I expect our defense and ST to win the game over theirs.

I think this is going to be one of those games where the QB trying to make plays is going to hurt his team, the guy willing to take what's there and punt will probably win.

I agree. We shoulfd be able to beat a rookie QB at home and it's not like Seatlle is very good anyway. Vamos a ver - GBR!

 

[BigRedRage]

Am I the only one who actually expects to win and maybe easily Sunday?

I just have a feeling Wilson is in for what happens to a lot of rookie QB's, a learning curve.

I watched him against the Raiders, who have a good DL, and he looked mediocre. had a possible TD pass dropped but he really had trouble in that game he looked like a short QB who was having trouble finding lanes to throw in.

I'm more worried about Seattle's defense against us. I think the game will be controlled by the defenses and turnovers and special teams will decide it. Because their QB is a rookie, and we have Peterson, I expect our defense and ST to win the game over theirs.

I think this is going to be one of those games where the QB trying to make plays is going to hurt his team, the guy willing to take what's there and punt will probably win.

as expect a great season. We have a stellar D and special teams core. As long as our offense can be average In think we can be good. The ravens did it.

 

[kerouac9]

Am I the only one who actually expects to win and maybe easily Sunday?

I just have a feeling Wilson is in for what happens to a lot of rookie QB's, a learning curve.

I watched him against the Raiders, who have a good DL, and he looked mediocre. had a possible TD pass dropped but he really had trouble in that game he looked like a short QB who was having trouble finding lanes to throw in.

I'm more worried about Seattle's defense against us. I think the game will be controlled by the defenses and turnovers and special teams will decide it. Because their QB is a rookie, and we have Peterson, I expect our defense and ST to win the game over theirs.

I think this is going to be one of those games where the QB trying to make plays is going to hurt his team, the guy willing to take what's there and punt will probably win.

Well, go to the matchups:

Cards rush defense vs. Seattle running game: SEATTLE. Seattle has a productive rusher in Marshawn Lynch, and our defense has struggled to contain the run in the preseason and the 2011 regular season.

Cards pass defense vs. Seattle passing game: ARIZONA. Seattle has to win individual matchups. I'm not going to be sure that this defense can create turnovers until I see them do so. Peterson can only cover one defender at a time, and William Gay is an average starter and Jameel Fleming is a rookie. Having to blitz to create pass pressure creates holes in zones, although it's an open question whether Wilson has the experience to exploit those holes. No one should be happier to see the departure of Tavaris Jackson, who has lit up the Cards multiple times during his career.

Cards passing game vs. Seattle pass defense: ARIZONA. Larry Fitzgerald combined for 14 receptions and 213 yards last year in two games against Seattle. While Seattle's cornerbacks are big and physical, that hasn't yet presented a challenge to Fitz. That kind of dominance should create opportunities for Andre Roberts and Early Doucet, if Skelton is given time to locate them. Seattle has struggled to put pressure on the passer from a personnel standpoint, but the Seahawks' hybrid scheme could give inexperienced offensive linemen fits.

Cards running game vs. Seattle run defense: SEATTLE. Seattle has a stout offensive line that our unit is going to struggle to create holes in. Those big cornerbacks will present matchup problems for Ryan Williams to find space on the outside, as well.

Special Teams: SEATTLE. This is going to be an unpopular opinion. Yes, Patrick Peterson is a special punt returner, but Leon Washington is pretty good, too. The Cards special teams have struggled preventing big punt returns, and if the offense can't pick up first downs even on failed drives, field position is going to be a major problem.

I wouldn't advise anyone to bet against the Cards at home. But until the offense shows that it can be productive without its most talented offensive lineman, it's going to be hard to put money on the Cards. Vegas isn't in the business of handicapping games; they're in the business of making money. Grantland today puts the Cards as the main favorite to be the worst team in the NFL.

If it comes down to field position and preventing mistakes, I don't know how you can say that Whis and Skelton are the guys you should trust.

 

[Chaz]

Week 1 can be so hard to handicap.

I don't blame the pundits for doubting the Cards. It is what they do and I think the team feeds on that some. At least it has in the past.

I seem to remember going on the road against a heralded rookie a couple of years ago. He made some good plays but the Cards, even with Anderson behind center, were good enough to overcome. Granted Seattle looks to have a much better defense but then I think the Cards do as well.

I tend to agree with those looking for a 17-13 type game that really could go either way based on turnovers.

 

[Russ Smith]

not sure how good Seattle's OL really is. I'm actually surprised Lynch hasn't been suspended yet for the DUI, I guess they're waiting for a trial on it?

They ran the ball fairly well in the preseason but I'm kind of expecting us to really load up on the run and make Wilson beat us over the top.

I guess we'll see. I expect both teams to do similar things take away the run and make the QB beat you.

 

[gmabel830]

Well, go to the matchups:

Cards rush defense vs. Seattle running game: SEATTLE. Seattle has a productive rusher in Marshawn Lynch, and our defense has struggled to contain the run in the preseason and the 2011 regular season.

Cards pass defense vs. Seattle passing game: ARIZONA. Seattle has to win individual matchups. I'm not going to be sure that this defense can create turnovers until I see them do so. Peterson can only cover one defender at a time, and William Gay is an average starter and Jameel Fleming is a rookie. Having to blitz to create pass pressure creates holes in zones, although it's an open question whether Wilson has the experience to exploit those holes. No one should be happier to see the departure of Tavaris Jackson, who has lit up the Cards multiple times during his career.

Cards passing game vs. Seattle pass defense: ARIZONA. Larry Fitzgerald combined for 14 receptions and 213 yards last year in two games against Seattle. While Seattle's cornerbacks are big and physical, that hasn't yet presented a challenge to Fitz. That kind of dominance should create opportunities for Andre Roberts and Early Doucet, if Skelton is given time to locate them. Seattle has struggled to put pressure on the passer from a personnel standpoint, but the Seahawks' hybrid scheme could give inexperienced offensive linemen fits.

Cards running game vs. Seattle run defense: SEATTLE. Seattle has a stout offensive line that our unit is going to struggle to create holes in. Those big cornerbacks will present matchup problems for Ryan Williams to find space on the outside, as well.

Special Teams: SEATTLE. This is going to be an unpopular opinion. Yes, Patrick Peterson is a special punt returner, but Leon Washington is pretty good, too. The Cards special teams have struggled preventing big punt returns, and if the offense can't pick up first downs even on failed drives, field position is going to be a major problem.

I wouldn't advise anyone to bet against the Cards at home. But until the offense shows that it can be productive without its most talented offensive lineman, it's going to be hard to put money on the Cards. Vegas isn't in the business of handicapping games; they're in the business of making money. Grantland today puts the Cards as the main favorite to be the worst team in the NFL.

If it comes down to field position and preventing mistakes, I don't know how you can say that Whis and Skelton are the guys you should trust.

Good analysis -- 2 quick comments:

1. Until we see what we've got at QB/O-line, I have a hard time believing our pass offense has an advantage against any pass defense.

2. I don't disagree with your assessment re: special teams and we may end up having worse field position in comparison, but I think that with Peterson and our FG/punt blocking ability (PP21, Bethel, CC), we have a better chance of making a big play in special teams that could be the difference in the game.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Vegas isn't in the business of handicapping games; they're in the business of making money. Grantland today puts the Cards as the main favorite to be the worst team in the NFL. .

First off, a seriuos question, who or what is Grantland?

As for Vegas, they make money by creating a line that has the money split as evenly as possible. So they kind of are handicapping. I see your point that they aren't necessarily saying Seattle is better, just they think this line will get the same play on both sides.

 

[john h]

710ESPN Seattle audio: Underdog Cards


September, 3, 2012
Sep 3
5:00
PM ET
By Mike Sando | ESPN.com

An underwhelming quarterback competition and key injuries to offensive linemen have lowered outside expectations for the Arizona Cardinals.

Coach Ken Whisenhunt has apparently noticed.

Asked about noticing any difference in practice with John Skelton as the starting quarterback, Whisenhunt worked in a reference to the Cardinals' underdog status against Seattle in Week 1:

"It’s too early to talk about noticing a difference. I thought we had good work today. That's the only thing that I'm really concerned about.

"We have a task this week going against Seattle. They look like a good football club. Not many people are giving us a chance, so we have to make sure we keep our head down and work."​

The Seahawks are indeed betting favorites at Arizona. The last time the Cardinals were a home underdog, they beat the 10-2 San Francisco 49ers, 21-19, in Week 14. Skelton completed 67.9 percent of his passes for 282 yards with three touchdowns and two interceptions in that game.

Should it feel like an upset if the Cardinals win Sunday? We discussed the possibilities Monday on 710ESPN Seattle. Here's the audio. Skip ahead to the 3:57 mark for the lead-in to my segment.

One big things we have going for us is that they will be starting a rookie QB (I think). He may be a real sleeper but he is still a rookie and rookies are doomed to have rookie mistakes. Even the good ones.

 

[Russ Smith]

One big things we have going for us is that they will be starting a rookie QB (I think). He may be a real sleeper but he is still a rookie and rookies are doomed to have rookie mistakes. Even the good ones.

Precisely, Peyton Manning 28 INT's as a rookie. Cam Newton last year in a total outlier year threw 17. Rookies just don't do what Newton did last year and he still had 17 picks.

Wilson may turn out to be better than Skelton I have no idea but my guess is he'll be more confused by our defense than he was in the preseason.

I just hope the Cards limit Skelton's mistakes.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't think Wilson is any different than Seneca Wallace when he was in Seattle. The Cards stop Lynch, they should win. There's nobody in the Seattle passing game that should concern the Cards all that much.

 

[kerouac9]

First off, a seriuos question, who or what is Grantland?

As for Vegas, they make money by creating a line that has the money split as evenly as possible. So they kind of are handicapping. I see your point that they aren't necessarily saying Seattle is better, just they think this line will get the same play on both sides.

Grantland is the ESPN.com spinoff created and edited by Bill Simmons. They're kind of middle-highbrow, and have an excellent roster of writers. Their main football guy is Bill Barnwell, a good follow on Twitter and formerly of FootballOutsiders. He did a really excellent Trade Value column at the end of last week, and IMO he's done interesting NFL writing for Grantland the last two years. I'd add that Chris Brown has been writing for Grantland and did an essential piece last week on "Package Plays."

Sometimes Vegas won't move the line because they believe that there's no chance a team wins no matter how much action comes in on the other side. They can't favor the Cards because money would pour in on the Seahawks. There's a lot of enthusiasm about Russel Wilson nationally.

 

[Mulli]

Grantland is the ESPN.com spinoff created and edited by Bill Simmons. They're kind of middle-highbrow, and have an excellent roster of writers. Their main football guy is Bill Barnwell, a good follow on Twitter and formerly of FootballOutsiders. He did a really excellent Trade Value column at the end of last week, and IMO he's done interesting NFL writing for Grantland the last two years. I'd add that Chris Brown has been writing for Grantland and did an essential piece last week on "Package Plays."

Sometimes Vegas won't move the line because they believe that there's no chance a team wins no matter how much action comes in on the other side. They can't favor the Cards because money would pour in on the Seahawks. There's a lot of enthusiasm about Russel Wilson nationally.

And Barnwell ALWAYS hates on the Cards. Simmons hates on the Cards most of the time.

 

[desertdawg]

Grantland is the ESPN.com spinoff created and edited by Bill Simmons. They're kind of middle-highbrow, and have an excellent roster of writers. Their main football guy is Bill Barnwell, a good follow on Twitter and formerly of FootballOutsiders. He did a really excellent Trade Value column at the end of last week, and IMO he's done interesting NFL writing for Grantland the last two years. I'd add that Chris Brown has been writing for Grantland and did an essential piece last week on "Package Plays."

Sometimes Vegas won't move the line because they believe that there's no chance a team wins no matter how much action comes in on the other side. They can't favor the Cards because money would pour in on the Seahawks. There's a lot of enthusiasm about Russel Wilson nationally.

Very dissapointing, I figured you for a R Kelly fan.

 

[kerouac9]

And Barnwell ALWAYS hates on the Cards. Simmons hates on the Cards most of the time.

Hogwash beaten wife syndrome. The Cards have been awful the past two years, and haven't done much this year to appear to get better. Barnwell has some good lines about the Cards in his latest piece:

The only winning move for them, truthfully, might be to stick with one guy for 16 games as opposed to constantly going back and forth while eroding each quarterback's confidence, a level of stability that hasn't been in head coach Ken Whisenhunt's playbook outside of the Kurt Warner days. They'll start Skelton in Week 1, but it would be an upset if the team went into October without Kolb marching onto (and then quickly off of) the field.

...

Kolb might have learned to handle a professional pass rush if the Cardinals had stuck a professional offensive line in front of him last season; instead, they stuck with a roughly CFL-caliber line and got the appropriate results.

The national perspective on the Cards runs from negative to complete indifference. Except for two years, that's bascially what the Cards have been. There's nothing that Barnwell says that isn't what's said on this board every day; it's just that people here don't like to hear those words said by an "outsider."

Grantland did a great item on Patrick Peterson in the run-up to training camp, and did another positive-ish piece on the QB competition a little after. You weren't around to see them, but if the Cards become a relevant team, people are happy to get on-board.

 

[Mulli]

Hogwash beaten wife syndrome. The Cards have been awful the past two years, and haven't done much this year to appear to get better. Barnwell has some good lines about the Cards in his latest piece:



The national perspective on the Cards runs from negative to complete indifference. Except for two years, that's bascially what the Cards have been. There's nothing that Barnwell says that isn't what's said on this board every day; it's just that people here don't like to hear those words said by an "outsider."

Grantland did a great item on Patrick Peterson in the run-up to training camp, and did another positive-ish piece on the QB competition a little after. You weren't around to see them, but if the Cards become a relevant team, people are happy to get on-board.

I hogwash your hogwash. They were 8-8 last year.

 

[gmabel830]

Grantland is the ESPN.com spinoff created and edited by Bill Simmons. They're kind of middle-highbrow, and have an excellent roster of writers. Their main football guy is Bill Barnwell, a good follow on Twitter and formerly of FootballOutsiders. He did a really excellent Trade Value column at the end of last week, and IMO he's done interesting NFL writing for Grantland the last two years.

I was going to post that trade value article as a new thread but never got around to it - figure it's pretty meaningless, but could have generated some good discussion. Fitz seemed low to me (and Simmons seemed to agree) and I thought PP21 was suprisingly high. The whole Brady vs. Luck debate that Simmons had in the footnote was interesting too.

 

[kerouac9]

I hogwash your hogwash. They were 8-8 last year.

8-8 and didn't win a game by more than a TD. We were 1-6 before you could blink, and didn't put up much of a fight, and went into the offseason like if we held our hands steady at the tilller, we'd be a playoff team in 2012.

I was going to post that trade value article as a new thread but never got around to it - figure it's pretty meaningless, but could have generated some good discussion. Fitz seemed low to me (and Simmons seemed to agree) and I thought PP21 was suprisingly high. The whole Brady vs. Luck debate that Simmons had in the footnote was interesting too.

Fitz's contract is monstrous. He's worth more to the Cards than he is anyone else. Maybe Barnwell weighted contracts too heavily, but I think that national figures who follow the Cards (fantasy owners, bascially) are incredibly frustrated at the situation that Fitz placed himself with the team. Imagine Fitz as a Bear or Charger. With an above-average quarterback, it's difficult to imagine his ceiling.

 

[gmabel830]

Fitz's contract is monstrous. He's worth more to the Cards than he is anyone else. Maybe Barnwell weighted contracts too heavily, but I think that national figures who follow the Cards (fantasy owners, bascially) are incredibly frustrated at the situation that Fitz placed himself with the team. Imagine Fitz as a Bear or Charger. With an above-average quarterback, it's difficult to imagine his ceiling.

Yeah, that's true - but Simmons argument on Fitz's rating is that he's being penalized for the situation he is in. Although younger, Megatron has an even bigger contract and was ~20 spots ahead of Larry. Simmons said that if you put Fitz in the same situation as Megatron, the two would probably end up rated about the same in terms of value. Even if Fitz did have a lot to do with the situation that he's in, should that really impact his trade value? Also, even with how desparate our O-line situation is currently, I have no doubt that UOP would be burned to the ground if Larry Fitzgerald was traded for Duane Brown (Brown was ranked higher on the list).