SportingNews.com: Suns Sign Dragic

[Cheesebeef]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kerr

What could Kerr possibly know about NBA talent and Championships...

yeah, cause being a player on a title team automatically makes one a great talent evaluator. Just ask Danny Ainge (who has been horrific his entire career at putting a team together via the draft and looking at young talent, unless of course you count evaluating KG and Ray Allen as some kind of talent that Ainge weened from winning titles) or Kevin McHale, who can't do anything to save his life, or Larry Bird with the Pacers or MJ with the Wiz. I mean, those guys should have certainly known NBA talent and knew something about NBA Championships, right? Hold your sarcasm for someone who doesn't have a point, okay?

Just because you played on a title team doesn't mean you know how to evaluate talent.

 

[SunsTzu]

Just because you played on a title team doesn't mean you know how to evaluate talent.

Isiah Thomas was both a champion and a great PG. I wish we had someone like him running the Suns, I'm sure he'd do just great!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Isiah Thomas was both a champion and a great PG. I wish we had someone like him running the Suns, I'm sure he'd do just great!

another good example, although, I do think Isiah actually had a pretty good eye for young talent, at least he did in Toronto for a little while. But still, add him to the mix of Jordan, Ainge, McHale and Bird as guys who knew a thing or two about winning titles the talent it takes to win one while having pretty much zero clue how to do the job of a GM.

 

[SunsTzu]

another good example, although, I do think Isiah actually had a pretty good eye for young talent

His drafting young talent was pretty strong, his siging/trading young players was pretty horrible though.

 

[Cheesebeef]

His drafting young talent was pretty strong, his siging/trading young players was pretty horrible though.

agreed and the bottom line was, again, another guy with championship experience had no clue what to do as GM as far as building a team.

 

[msdundee]

agreed and the bottom line was, again, another guy with championship experience had no clue what to do as GM as far as building a team.

I'm curious. What kind of experience do you think would provide that clue? Obviously you'd have to look at those you consider the best GMs in the NBA.

 

[msdundee]

I'm curious. What kind of experience do you think would provide that clue? Obviously you'd have to look at those you consider the best GMs in the NBA.

And that approach would be difficult too, since you have to consider a minimum triumvirate with the GM influenced by owner/owners and at least the head coach.

 

[Irish]

It seemed like Isah was good at drafting an awful with free agency and trading.

I've been curious about the basis of his problem, but I think it comes from the core difference between drafting and dealing with veterans. In drafting, it is usually a case of "best player available". It's nice if that happens to meet need, but not necessarily.

With veterans, there needs to be a strategy of what kind of players fit your system and what your long range needs are. Isah was absolutely awful at that. I don't know if Kerr is as good as Isiah at picking draft guys, but so far Kerr has shown he has a clear theory of what KIND of guys he wants.

Is Dragic the KIND of guys Kerr is looking for? Yes. He's good sized for a PG, has pretty good athleticism, plays defense, plays hard and likes to play up tempo. There is no real dispute on this because all the scouting reports say the same thing.

What we don't know is whether Dragic has the vision, creatively, and instincts of an elite point guard. We don't know if his shooting has imrproved drastically over his early career. We don't know is his skill at getting to the basket trasnlates into NBA play.

This is the king of stuff that makes a difference between a nice propsect and guy worth going deep into the LT and a long term committment. Kerr and Porter SHOULD be able to tell, but there are a lot of GM's with the background that bomb out completely when looking at prospects.

 

[HooverDam]

It seemed like Isah was good at drafting an awful with free agency and trading.

Isiah was not really 'good' at drafting either.

'07 SF Wilson Chandler (too soon to judge one way or the other)
'06 SF Renaldo Balkman (meh)
'05 PF David Lee (good pick for it being #30)
'04 No 1st rounder, Trevor Ariza in the 2nd round, good pick, but they didn't hang on to him
'03 PF Michael Sweetney (bad pick)
'02 Nene but they were picking for Denver, and they passed on Amare, Butler and Boozer
'01 no 1st rounder, some stiff in the 2nd round

I don't recall exactly when Isiah started, but this group is 'meh' at VERY best. Isiah traded away a lot of picks as parts of bad deals, passed on better players, and loaded up on low ceiling forwards.

 

[JCSunsfan]

while having pretty much zero clue how to do the job of a GM.

A bit of overstatement there. You don't have zero clue about the job of GM and put together a championship team. Ainge has had his blunders but he also has a ring as a gm.

Dumars was a combo guard along with Isiah and he has done fine as a gm.

Then there is Jerry West

Sure, some former players are bad, is the fact that they were players what makes them bad? If they hadn't been players would they be better gms? Do you take a non former player on as a gm over a former player?

What the Suns should have done is hire Coro and Jerry Brown to do all the Suns scouting. After all, writing about sports is the best qualification of all.

Of course, if that was true, half the people on this board write more about the Suns than any paid press member.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm curious. What kind of experience do you think would provide that clue? Obviously you'd have to look at those you consider the best GMs in the NBA.

I actually have no idea. but I don't think just playing on title teams and mediocre PG automatically means you can evaluate talent and know what it takes to win championships.

 

[Cheesebeef]

A bit of overstatement there. You don't have zero clue about the job of GM and put together a championship team. Ainge has had his blunders but he also has a ring as a gm.

uh, can you show me ANYWHERE that I said Ainge had "zero clue what he was doing as GM"? That quote is completely taken out of context as it was in regards DIRECTLY to a point made about Isiah Thomas. What I said about Ainge (and what I've questioned about Kerr) was that just because he won titles didn't stop him from being "a bad talent evaluator" which he was and which is why the Cs were horrifically bad for years until he was gifted with a KG by a close friend-ex teamate. Now, that's not to say Danny didn't make some great moves last year (although if you're gonna say he's a great talent evaluator for seeing that KG and Ray Allen were studs, well, I don't know what to tell you), but the issue we're talking about is Kerr being able to know what a good PG is because of the guys he played with a title experience, not whether or not he can make good trades (which at this point, trading away Marion, KT, JR, and 3 first round picks while only getting Shaq in return and seeing a title contending team get it's ass kicked in the first round of the playoffs, doesn't look like a strength.)

Dumars was a combo guard along with Isiah and he has done fine as a gm.

Then there is Jerry West

you're right, so what? Did I ever say either of those guys were bad GMs? Did I ever say that playing ball PRECLUDES players from being good GMs?

Sure, some former players are bad, is the fact that they were players what makes them bad?

Not at all.

If they hadn't been players would they be better gms?

I have no idea. They probably wouldn't be GMs at all.

Do you take a non former player on as a gm over a former player?

Not necessarily. You seem to think I believe being a good player on a title team absolutely precludes that person from being a GM, although I never said that. I merely offered evidence as to why you shouldn't just go ahead and bow down to Steve Kerr's word and thoughts as to talent evaluation because not every guy with title experience actually knows how to translate that into success in the FO, whether that be talent evaluation (as George said or Shazm intimated with his sarcastic post) or building a team.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe it's just the GOOD former players that make bad GMs. The jury is still out on mediocre former players, so we're all good.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why does Kerr have to have played alongside HOF PG's in order to justify his eye for talent?

who said he did? I just don't think a) that he did play with those guys and b) think like George and others here that playing with them justifies faith in his eye for talent.

Or is this just a personal credibility attack on a fellow SUNS fan?

just cause I disagree with someone A LOT, shouldn't mean it's a credibility attack. My opinion and memory of certain facts just differ wildly from George's.

Sheesh Cheese, give Irish a break why don't you. Whats your agenda here?

I'm just talking basketball. Irish has said a lot of things that I believe were wildly inaccurate and I just gave a lot of basketball reasons why I thought they were wildly inaccurate.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe it's just the GOOD former players that make bad GMs. The jury is still out on mediocre former players, so we're all good.

unfortunately Dumars and West are both HOFers who were good-great GMs, so that blows that theory out of the water!

Seriously, I think there's probably just a huge misunderstanding going on here so I'll say this in a relatively small post where it won't be lost amongst words.

Here's the bottom line: Having played a championship level doesn't preclude former players from being good talent evaluators or know what it takes to build a title team, but by the same token, it doesn't automatically mean they know what they're doing either. Some people have basketball minds, in all facets, on and off the court and some don't. How can you tell? I have no idea.

Again, I'm not even saying Kerr's WRONG about Dragic, just that I don't automatically think he's qualified to make that kind of judgement.

 

[Irish]

Actually if being a writer was a qualification, then Kerr would be a great GM since that's what he did prior to joining the Suns.

I've been surprised how often TV commentators like Del Negro get coaching jobs without any hands on coaching experienced. I never could understand how Jackson almost got the Knicks job without even assistant coaching background.

I can't remember his name, but it seemed to me the Magic had a GM whose prior background was as GM of a hockey team. I'm still not clear why McHale is still GM at Minnesota after his dismal career in the front office. But the Spurs have lost key FO people and keep rolling along.

My guess is that the trick is to have a good organization: scouts, scouting directors, video analysis, and whatever. Some GM's try to do it all on their own instincts and let their egos get into the way. Others defer too much to their coaches or owners.

Do we have any reason to think the Suns FO is irrationally off base in their assessment of Dragic? I'd say they are probably a bit overoptimistic. But I don't see any reason to believe he'll be a total flop either. If he's just a solid backup, for the time being I'll be happy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why does Kerr have to have played alongside HOF PG's in order to justify his eye for talent?

who said he did? he didn't have to play with anyone to justify his eye for talent. The point I was responding to was that George said he played with some of the finest to ever play in the game and that should give him a leg up somehow. I don't believe that he played with such a level of player, but I don't believe him not playing with guys at that level in someway make it harder to justify his eye for talent. Bottom line, George made a statement that Kerr playing with elite guys should lend credibility as to his eye for talent and I disagreed with the foundation of it because for the most part, Kerr never played with such players. Where you got anyone said the point above I'm not sure.

Or is this just a personal credibility attack on a fellow SUNS fan?

just cause I disagree with someone A LOT who happens to post A LOT, shouldn't mean it's a credibility attack. My opinion and memory of certain facts just differ wildly from George's. Should I have said some of the things he stated were out of left field? Is that a credibility attack? Maybe, but to be honest, I don't know better how to state what I think of some of his opinions that I believe to come from god knows where.

Sheesh Cheese, give Irish a break why don't you. Whats your agenda here?

I'm just talking basketball. Irish has said a lot of things that I believe were wildly inaccurate and I just gave a lot of basketball reasons why I thought they were wildly inaccurate. again, if I believe someone's wildly inaccurate, it's hard for me to figure out how they can be so inaccurate, thus statements like "out of left field" or oye gevault

 

[SunsTzu]

Dumars was a combo guard along with Isiah and he has done fine as a gm.

Then there is Jerry West

Both these guys had spent time in the front office learning the ropes and earning promotions before they took over as GMs it's no coincidence they did so well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Do we have any reason to think the Suns FO is irrationally off base in their assessment of Dragic? I'd say they are probably a bit overoptimistic. But I don't see any reason to believe he'll be a total flop either.

Sean Marks is going to surprise a lot of people this year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Both these guys had spent time in the front office learning the ropes and earning promotions before they took over as GMs it's no coincidence they did so well.

there's that too, but don't let facts get in your way!

 

[Muggum]

A ton of teams passed on him, so it's hard to imagine we'll get much more than a decent backup. Time will tell.

 

[arwillan]

A ton of teams passed on him, so it's hard to imagine we'll get much more than a decent backup. Time will tell.

but as has been stated in many other threads, there are multiple explanations for dragic falling as far as he did. we've heard that the suns considered taking him with the 15th pick, so it was possible that wasn't going to slip all that far. There was an article about bill walker on draft express in the days leading up to the draft that said he is a consistent jumper away from being a top 10 pick, and dragic is a 3 point shot and a buyout away from being in the lottery.

 

[Irish]

A ton of teams passed on him, so it's hard to imagine we'll get much more than a decent backup. Time will tell.

I would not get hung up on where he was taken. His contract situation was and is awfully complicated and very expensive. Not everybody is willing to wait. Sometimes waiting works, Ginobili was taken 57th in the 1999 draft but didn't join the Spurs until 2002. But no other team thought there was a chance to get Dragic this year.

This was a deep draft. The list of guys taken ahead of Dragic in the scond round is filled with guys who might have been in the first round last year include Dorsey, Chalmers, Jordan, Douglas Roberts, and Weaver. Guys the Suns passed on included Singletary, Hairston, Walker, Hendrix, and Von Hardin. The "stay in Europe" guys are big and generally ahtletic.
http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/2008.html.

Obviously no one else thought AS highly of Dragic as the Suns, but there were a bunch of nice looking prospects in the second round so it is logical that lottery teams wanted guys who could play immediately or big prospect types. This doesn't prove Dragic is going to be special, just that his draft position doesn't prove much.

 

[Griffin]

Guys the Suns passed on included Singletary, Hairston, Walker, Hendrix, and Von Hardin.

The player that I'll be keeping track of is Mario Chalmers, whom Miami obtained for two second-round draft picks and cash, same as what the Suns gave the Spurs for Dragic. The Suns potentially could have had Chalmers for the same price, but obviously were determined to get Dragic. Chalmers definitely seemed like a better choice at the time, as nobody knew who Dragic was. Time will tell if we made the right choice.

 

[Irish]

The player that I'll be keeping track of is Mario Chalmers, whom Miami obtained for two second-round draft picks and cash, same as what the Suns gave the Spurs for Dragic. The Suns potentially could have had Chalmers for the same price, but obviously were determined to get Dragic. Chalmers definitely seemed like a better choice at the time, as nobody knew who Dragic was. Time will tell if we made the right choice.

I was shocked that Chalmers fell into the second round.

BTW, second round picks are not equal. The Heat had the worst record in the NBA, so a 2nd round Heat pick was worth vastly more than the Suns #48 pick.