Spurs versus Suns draft comparisons

[Mainstreet]

It seems Paul Coro is playing up the Spurs draft differences with the Suns in an article at azcentral dated 4-28-15. I find it a bit amusing as he is the beat writer for the Suns. I guess even he gets frustrated about the Suns situation. However, he omitted the Spurs drafting Tim Duncan at #1 and Gregg Popovich being the Spurs head coach in the overall comparison. Also I'm thinking the Spurs may have better scouts than the Suns.

Since 2008, the Suns have drafted Robin Lopez, Earl Clark, Markieff Morris, Kendall Marshall, T.J. Warren and Tyler Ennis between Nos. 13 and 18. Only Morris and Warren are current Suns. This year, the Suns' most likely lottery scenario is another No. 13 pick.

Just as the Spurs struck gold with Manu Ginobili at No. 57 and Tony Parker at No. 28 in 1999 and 2001, respectively, they have fanned the flames of championship contention with Tiago Splitter at No. 28, George Hill at No. 26, Cory Joseph at No. 29 and using Hill to get Kawhi Leonard at No. 15.

Yeah, about that Leonard pick in 2011.

Last year's NBA Finals Most Valuable Player and this year's NBA Defensive Player of the Year was there for Suns' taking at No. 13. Eleven other teams also had the chance in that year's top 14.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor.../?hootPostID=3ce5f5184ce30f6a146c0ee9c6fcc94b
_______________________________________

Also he also playing up a Mike Budenholzer story, formerly of the Spurs, come Sunday.

https://twitter.com/paulcoro/status/593229104532467713

 

[DWKB]

The name you're looking for is former KU asst coach RC Buford.

 

[Mainstreet]

The name you're looking for is former KU asst coach RC Buford.

I'm referring to former assistant Spurs coach Mike Budenholzer, who now coaches for the Atlanta Hawks but who was born in Holbrook, Arizona. I understand Buford is the American GM for the Spurs.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns got Leandro Barbosa at the end of the first round and Marcin Gortat early in the second. They had the savvy to engineer a sign-and-trade for Boris Diaw when he looked like a flop in Atlanta. T. J. Warren will probably outperform his draft position when all is said and done. You can cherry-pick successes with most NBA teams, I would guess. The Suns have done well in the draft, even with their recent misses.

I agree that the big difference for the Spurs has been the leadership of the Popovich-Duncan axis.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns got Leandro Barbosa at the end of the first round and Marcin Gortat early in the second. They had the savvy to engineer a sign-and-trade for Boris Diaw when he looked like a flop in Atlanta. T. J. Warren will probably outperform his draft position when all is said and done. You can cherry-pick successes with most NBA teams, I would guess. The Suns have done well in the draft, even with their recent misses.

I agree that the big difference for the Spurs has been the leadership of the Popovich-Duncan axis.

What caught my attention, I found it interesting the Suns beat writer (of all people) was beating the Spurs drum. Maybe some frustration?

I would have felt better if the Suns had drafted Gortat for themselves instead of another team. However, I agree, one can always cherry-pick.

 

[elindholm]

I would have felt better if the Suns had drafted Gortat for themselves instead of another team.

Oh, for some reason I thought they had drafted him for themselves, then changed their minds, or something like that. But I could easily be wrong. So maybe he's not a good example.

 

[Mainstreet]

Oh, for some reason I thought they had drafted him for themselves, then changed their minds, or something like that. But I could easily be wrong. So maybe he's not a good example.

I think the Suns made the Gortat pick at #57 for another team which turned out to be Orlando. There is not much out there on it except a reference by Wikipedia. I do not know what the Suns received in return. I would guess cash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NBA_draft

 

[Errntknght]

My recollection is that Gortat was chosen by the team we sold the pick to... I remember wishing at the time that we'd kept the pick and drafted Marcin with it - and all I knew about him was his height and weight.

Edit: I'm pretty sure we sold the pick for cash.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Suns got Leandro Barbosa at the end of the first round and Marcin Gortat early in the second. They had the savvy to engineer a sign-and-trade for Boris Diaw when he looked like a flop in Atlanta. T. J. Warren will probably outperform his draft position when all is said and done. You can cherry-pick successes with most NBA teams, I would guess. The Suns have done well in the draft, even with their recent misses.

I agree that the big difference for the Spurs has been the leadership of the Popovich-Duncan axis.

I agree. I would admit that the Spurs have been pretty saavy with late first round picks and second rounders--especially overseas players. But the difference isn't quite as stark as it was originally made out to be.

There is another factor. The Spurs do a good job developing their picks. I have a hunch that Parker, Leanard, and Ginobili would not have been nearly as effective playing for, say, the Knicks.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What caught my attention, I found it interesting the Suns beat writer (of all people) was beating the Spurs drum. Maybe some frustration?

I would have felt better if the Suns had drafted Gortat for themselves instead of another team. However, I agree, one can always cherry-pick.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[Mainstreet]

Credit where credit is due.

On the surface I can see it.

However, looking deeper, Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich were conveniently not mentioned in the article. It does make an argument that with proper scouting, drafting later can be successful... something that many Suns fans may have forgotten. The Suns used to have such a reputation, drafting well later in the draft many years past. Then add in a upcoming story about Mike Budenholzer, a former Spurs coach come Sunday, there seems to be a theme... that is contrasting what the Suns could have done versus what the Spurs did. Just my opinion.

Also a lot of teams passed on Kawhi Leonard.

 

[Covert Rain]

On the surface I can see it.

However, looking deeper, Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich were conveniently not mentioned in the article. It does make an argument that with proper scouting, drafting later can be successful... something that many Suns fans may have forgotten. The Suns used to have such a reputation, drafting well later in the draft many years past. Then add in a upcoming story about Mike Budenholzer, a former Spurs coach come Sunday, there seems to be a theme... that is contrasting what the Suns could have done versus what the Spurs did. Just my opinion.

Also a lot of teams passed on Kawhi Leonard.

The Spurs committed the ultimate tank job to get Duncan, Land him and they did have Pop. However, they get credit for all those actions. You may not agree with why he is beating the Spurs drum but that drum should be beaten like drum solo at a rock concert compared to the Suns.

We have done a decent job getting guy like Marion and some other late in the draft but the freaking Spurs just seem to keep reloading on filling holes and gaps. We don't hold a candle. I still believe if Pop was our coach during the Amare/Nash era we have at least 1 title banner hanging versus Pringles zero.

This is coming from a person who can't stand the Spurs.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Spurs committed the ultimate tank job to get Duncan, Land him and they did have Pop. However, they get credit for all those actions. You may not agree with why he is beating the Spurs drum but that drum should be beaten like drum solo at a rock concert compared to the Suns.

We have done a decent job getting guy like Marion and some other late in the draft but the freaking Spurs just seem to keep reloading on filling holes and gaps. We don't hold a candle. I still believe if Pop was our coach during the Amare/Nash era we have at least 1 title banner hanging versus Pringles zero.

This is coming from a person who can't stand the Spurs.

I just found it ironic the Suns beat writer is seemingly beating the Spurs drum. It's not that the Spurs shouldn't have a rock solo.

 

[95pro]

Amare was our best pick, ever. So young and he dominated the Spurs. Dwight wasn't a problem for him too. He was our future. Such a beast. I hate thinking of what should have been.
That pick was greater than Duncan head to head.

 

[Catlover]

Amare was our best pick, ever. So young and he dominated the Spurs. Dwight wasn't a problem for him too. He was our future. Such a beast. I hate thinking of what should have been.
That pick was greater than Duncan head to head.

Amare had a world of talent but no, he wasn't greater than Duncan head to head. He was more athletic and he might have won the stats battles occasionally but Tim played both ends of the court and had an unstoppable mid-range shot. He also had a huge advantage over Amare in referee relations, an area that should not be trivialized.

 

[Joe Mama]

Amare in his heyday was one of the best offensive 4/5's I can remember. Unfortunately he was one of the worst defensively. And before somebody jumps in and tries to claim it's because he was defending bigger centers please don't go there. He's just a clueless defender. They were arguably better with Kurt Thomas because he was such an improvement defensively and good enough in the pick and pop to keep defenses honest. Besides there was no shortage of offense even with Amare off the court.

My favorite of all of those teams was 2005-06 when Amare Stoudemire was out. Too bad the coach refused to develop a rotation more than seven deep and ran everybody into the ground.

Joe

 

[95pro]

Amare had a world of talent but no, he wasn't greater than Duncan head to head. He was more athletic and he might have won the stats battles occasionally but Tim played both ends of the court and had an unstoppable mid-range shot. He also had a huge advantage over Amare in referee relations, an area that should not be trivialized.

Head to head doesn't involve great team defense and referees.

 

[Catlover]

Head to head doesn't involve great team defense and referees.

I didn't say "team defense". Duncan plays defense, individually and as part of a team. Amare would make an occasional defensive play but he usually ignored that part of the game. Duncan was a master at working the refs and got calls in his favor that our "and one" screamer never could. It's a big difference and yes, it seems to me that both items are relevant when viewing their value head to head. I don't quite understand why you'd dismiss them?

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree, Amare usually ignored defense but his last second block on Brad Miller is one of my favorite defensive plays by Amare. IMO, it was goaltending but the Suns got the call.

https://youtu.be/GX2iNOjmABk

 

[95pro]

I didn't say "team defense". Duncan plays defense, individually and as part of a team. Amare would make an occasional defensive play but he usually ignored that part of the game. Duncan was a master at working the refs and got calls in his favor that our "and one" screamer never could. It's a big difference and yes, it seems to me that both items are relevant when viewing their value head to head. I don't quite understand why you'd dismiss them?

Head to head he got to the rim a lot on Duncan.

 

[elindholm]

I agree, Amare usually ignored defense but his last second block on Brad Miller is one of my favorite defensive plays by Amare. IMO, it was goaltending but the Suns got the call.

What I remember most about this play was how Webber obviously travelled before passing.

 

[Phrazbit]

I interpreted that line as taking Amare at #9 was a savvier pick than stumbling into Duncan at #1. Which I'd agree with for sure. Duncan was a no brainer, while landing Amare there was brilliant. That draft was loaded with duds and the Suns took a guy that if not for some knee issues would have gone down as one of the greatest offensive forwards in NBA history.

 

[elindholm]

Which I'd agree with for sure. Duncan was a no brainer, while landing Amare there was brilliant.

I get what you mean, but I don't think I'd agree. Some mocks had Stoudemire still on the board at #9, and others had him already gone. So the Suns' "brilliance" was that other people passed on him, and they snapped him up. The Suns capitalized on the blunders committed by the teams who picked the likes of Tskitishvili (Denver) and Dajuan Wagner (Cleveland) ahead of Stoudemire, but that's more being in the right place in the right time than having real insight.

More impressive picks are when you reach for someone who isn't on the radar and he turns out to be a star. For example, the Dan Majerle pick was famously booed, but he was a real find there, a very effective two-way player until he fell in love with the three-point shot later in his career.

 

[Mainstreet]

More impressive picks are when you reach for someone who isn't on the radar and he turns out to be a star. For example, the Dan Majerle pick was famously booed, but he was a real find there, a very effective two-way player until he fell in love with the three-point shot later in his career.

I agree about Majerle.

However, even worse, Suns fans at the draft laughed at the selection of Jeff Hornacek. They didn't believe the qualities described by Suns staff.

 

[Covert Rain]

Good points but just about every pick outside the top 3 are considered huge crap shoots compared to a consensus #1 pick in Duncan. I don't think the draft choices are really comparable. So, picking Duncan probably wasn't "savvy" but you do have to evaluate who is left on the board after #3 and do some pretty good scouting to try and find the diamond in the rough.

By the way, I don't think Dan fell in love with the 3 point late in his career. I think he evolved into that type of player out of necessity. He couldn't jump or move the way he wanted to offensively late in his career.