Still like the Marbury trade?

[Chaz]

Does anyone have the numbers on PPG before and after the trade?

OK, I figured out the Suns scoring average before and after the trade.

despite trading the leader in scoring and assists the Suns increased their scoring average from 93.2 to 94.1. Not a big difference but the was no drop off after losing the leading scorer on the team, instead there was an increase.

At the same time (before / after the trade) the Suns went from allowing 96.6 ppg to allowing 97.3 ppg.



Also:

With Frank as coach they scored 91.7 ppg and allowed 94.3 ppg.

With D'Antoni as coach they score 94.7 ppg and allow 98.4 ppg.

 

[F-Dog]

I wasn't thrilled with the trade at the time, but I could see the point to it. I'm still not thrilled with it, but I can still see the point to it.

Before the trade:

--the team wasn't going anywhere this year
--the young players weren't improving
--the team didn't play a style of basketball that promised future success.
--the team was losing money.

I can see why they would want to shake things up, and I can see why Marbury was the choice--he has plenty of trade value, and the team wasn't going to play a different style while he was still around.

Also, the Suns seem to have a talent for finding and developing good guards, so there's hope that Marbury and Penny can be replaced by cheaper guards who will be nearly as productive. From a strategic standpoint, it makes more sense for the Suns to invest most of their money in big men and develop young guards instead of the other way around.


What the Suns received in the trade was cash and futures, so obviously there's no point in attempting to score their side of the trade yet. If Vujanic turns out to be the next Nash, or if Lampe develops into a great player, or if the Suns wind up with a top-2 pick this year, or if they get a marquee free agent this summer, then this trade is going to look very good for them in hindsight. None of those things seems especially likely to happen by itself, but the likelihood of any one of the four happening is much tougher to gauge. I haven't given up on the idea of the Suns getting equal value quite yet.

In the meantime, the players the Suns need to develop are busy developing. The team's progress was very encouraging while Amare was out, and now that he's back it's not so encouraging. I expect to be encouraged again when the team returns from the All-Star break.


Seriously, if the team were playing more man defense, I would be more happy with the trade now than I was at the time. As it is, I'm still cautiously optimistic...

 

[elindholm]

Chaplin:

JJ's resurgance has tempered that a bit, but also Jake and Casey have played better as a result as well. Why is that, do you think?

There's no question that Marbury's style of play was hurting the team this season. But whose fault is that?

When Marbury was traded to Phoenix from the Nets, we fell all over ourselves contradicting the "standard line" that Marbury was selfish, uncoachable, and incapable of leading a team. Didn't we believe that? And why now, all of a sudden, have we decided that he was selfish, uncoachable, and incapable of leading a team?

Marbury's biggest problem is discipline. He needs a coach willing to stand up to him and tell him what to do and how to do it. The Suns could have sprung for a real coach -- one with experience and authority, who knew how to call plays and to mold players' talents into a coherent whole. But they didn't, and Marbury, lacking direction, fell into his old habits.

Do you really think that a core of Marbury/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, with proper coaching, was doomed to mediocrity or worse? I sure don't.

I find it funny that all of a sudden, Eric has this foolproof idea about getting rid of Hardaway.

Huh? I have no such idea. I said that Hardaway was only a financial problem, which is true. If the Suns' ownership was willing to spend money, Hardaway's big contract would have been almost irrelevant.

Saving money on Hardaway's deal is a good thing. "Saving" money by dumping Marbury is a strange way of thinking about it. Sure, he would have been overpaid by the end of his extension, and I still think the extension was a mistake. But you need good players in order to win, and those players cost money. Over the next five or six years, the money "saved" on Marbury -- who, like him or not, is surely a top-20 player in this league -- will be spent on other players. Will they be as good? Will they provide as much bang for the buck? Maybe and maybe not, but the point is, once the Suns hire those other players, the Marbury "savings" disappears.

George O'Brien:

Cabakapa was mostly hope rather than proven skill. None of the Euro big guys are immediately ready for the NBA . A lot more hope was placed on Zarko than was realistic. I believe he will be a very good player, but the idea he was going to turn the season around was mostly wishful thinking.

Cabarkapa showed a lot more in summer league, exhibition, and his limited NBA minutes than has Lampe. In particular, he was often one of the best players on the floor during the summer league games. Okay, so Lampe is a couple years younger. But if it was unrealistic to pin high hopes on Cabarkapa, is it any less unrealistic to pin them on Lampe?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Cabarkapa showed a lot more in summer league, exhibition, and his limited NBA minutes than has Lampe. In particular, he was often one of the best players on the floor during the summer league games. Okay, so Lampe is a couple years younger. But if it was unrealistic to pin high hopes on Cabarkapa, is it any less unrealistic to pin them on Lampe?

By his own admission, Lampe was terribly out of shape this summer. He worked hard to get into shape and does not look at all fat even though he is 275 pounds. In the few minutes that Lampe has played, he actually showed good footwork on defense -- much better than Carbakapa.

My point about both guys is that I have high hopes they will be very good players -- just not yet. My point about Carbakapa was that it was unrealistic to assume he was going to turn the team around THIS SEASON.

 

[elindholm]

My point about Carbakapa was that it was unrealistic to assume he was going to turn the team around THIS SEASON.

Ah. I guess I made the mistake of thinking that you were responding to my post. I'll learn some day!

I had written, "Even those who thought this season was lost were hopeful that those players ... would get the Suns back to at least playoff level, if not higher." I didn't think Cabarkapa would be a huge difference maker this year either, but at least he gave me something tangible to go on.

Why do you take Lampe's listed weight of 275 as gospel, especially if it has been fluctuating a lot this year and is listed at different numbers by different sources? From what very little I've seen of him, he doesn't look that strong to me. To me he looks (in terms of build) like a slightly leaner version of Vlade Divac, who is listed at 260. NBA.com has Lampe at 240, which I have to say looks a lot more realistic than 275.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm

Why do you take Lampe's listed weight of 275 as gospel, especially if it has been fluctuating a lot this year and is listed at different numbers by different sources? From what very little I've seen of him, he doesn't look that strong to me. To me he looks (in terms of build) like a slightly leaner version of Vlade Divac, who is listed at 260. NBA.com has Lampe at 240, which I have to say looks a lot more realistic than 275.

I guess it is because the TV commentators discussed how he did not look like he was 275 and that D'Antoni described him as being 275 in one of his interviews.

 

[slinslin]

It wouldn't be the worst thing if JJ slowed down a little right now.

First of all his extension would be incredibly expensive if he would average 22/5/5 at 50%FG for the rest of the season.
And second of all it would almost make im ineligible for the MIP award next season because Randolph has pretty much locked it up although JJ would end up averaging close to 19/5/5 49% shooting at his pace after the trade.

He is still only 22 and will improve and grow into his role.

 

[elindholm]

I guess it is because the TV commentators discussed how he did not look like he was 275

Heh, but he also didn't look like a woman, right? So, you know, maybe that's because he's not a woman.

and that D'Antoni described him as being 275 in one of his interviews.

Before or after seeing him in person and/or weighing him in a Suns facility?

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm

Cabarkapa showed a lot more in summer league, exhibition, and his limited NBA minutes than has Lampe. In particular, he was often one of the best players on the floor during the summer league games. Okay, so Lampe is a couple years younger. But if it was unrealistic to pin high hopes on Cabarkapa, is it any less unrealistic to pin them on Lampe? [/B]

I didn't get to watch any of their games, but weren't Cabarkapa and Lampe the two best players in the Rocky Mountain *****? I thought Lampe averaged something like 16 and 8.

The problem with Marbury is that the Phoenix Suns wanted to build an athletic, running, scoring team. But that was not Marbury's style. He absolutely refused to push the ball up the court with any regularity. I will say I love his ability to break down a defense in the half-court. I do think the Suns could have been very good with everyone healthy and without Frank Johnson. However I believe they are only slightly worse without him and Hardaway. They are in much better financial shape though, and they have more flexibility going forward.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

For the record before everyone keeps speculating...

Lampe said he lost like 20lbs since the beginning of the season because of some sort of injury or something.

And Lampe was on the RMR all tournament team just like Zarko and averaged pretty much the same and showed much more back to the basket skills and shooting touch than Zarko did.

Lampe also won MVP of a youth tournament in europe this offseason that included possible lottery picks like Kosta Perovic. He pretty much dominated that tournament and lead his team to a tie for 2nd place.

 

[elindholm]

Joe Mama:

The problem with Marbury is that the Phoenix Suns wanted to build an athletic, running, scoring team.

I think you're right, but then trading Kidd was a mistake. They knew what kind of player Marbury was. And frankly, the running game right now sucks. Their conversion rate when they have a three-on-two has to be 50% or lower. They don't get the ball to the middle, the first pass comes too late, and then the recipient of the pass hesitates and looks for a trailer rather than just finishing himself.

slinslin:

And Lampe was on the RMR all tournament team just like Zarko and averaged pretty much the same and showed much more back to the basket skills and shooting touch than Zarko did.

Okay, my mistake, and thanks also to Joe Mama for the correction. Still, it is disturbing that Lampe started off hot in the exhibition season and then gradually disappeared.

 

[slinslin]

Lampe just turned 19 years old.
He is the 2nd youngest player in the entire NBA.

 

[creed]

I still like this trade because there are different directions we could go with it.

Dumping Marbury already panned out a little because our team is tanking and will have a better draft pick. True we still lost WITH Marbury but dumping Stephon enabled a more lasting tank...one that had to endure Stoudemire and Zarko returning.

I have no idea how good or bad Vujanic is but reports say he's good. How good is debatable but it seems a safe bet he's not going to blow. More good news on him is its looking like he'll be here next season.

We have the NY picks which can be used to dump Eisley or White (with money thrown in). I think those picks will definately help our cap clearing moves. Plus of course CLEVELAND is looking to have a chance to make the playoffs (Go Bulls beat Celtics tonight!). So maybe add anotehr pick to the mix and more salary dumping hopefully.

This is not a time to be down...things are looking as good as can be for the time being. Even NY has lost their last couple games!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm

slinslin:

And Lampe was on the RMR all tournament team just like Zarko and averaged pretty much the same and showed much more back to the basket skills and shooting touch than Zarko did.

Okay, my mistake, and thanks also to Joe Mama for the correction. Still, it is disturbing that Lampe started off hot in the exhibition season and then gradually disappeared.

How much of that is Lampe's fault, and how much of it is New York's fault?

 

[elindholm]

How much of that is Lampe's fault, and how much of it is New York's fault?

He ain't playing for the Suns either.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
How much of that is Lampe's fault, and how much of it is New York's fault?

He ain't playing for the Suns either.

Well, from the looks of things, nobody's playing for the Suns.

 

[scotsman13]

slin i saw lampe in the RMR this summer. lampe is more of the normal european player in that he was a very good outside shooter who had the start of a post up game. he didnt seem to be a physical player. as a matter of fact, i thought that zarko was a very differant then normal european player in that he was attacking the basket and not just standing there taking jump shots. lampe and zarko went at each other in one game i saw in which they each played their own game. zarko was driving and had a high level of energy, lampe's game was more of a wait and let the game come to him. when he got open he took advanage of it. i remember one play where they both were under the basket going for a board, i think that zarko came out with it. that is about all i remember as i wasnt really looking at lampe.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by scotsman13
slin i saw lampe in the RMR this summer. lampe is more of the normal european player in that he was a very good outside shooter who had the start of a post up game. he didnt seem to be a physical player. as a matter of fact, i thought that zarko was a very differant then normal european player in that he was attacking the basket and not just standing there taking jump shots. lampe and zarko went at each other in one game i saw in which they each played their own game. zarko was driving and had a high level of energy, lampe's game was more of a wait and let the game come to him. when he got open he took advanage of it. i remember one play where they both were under the basket going for a board, i think that zarko came out with it. that is about all i remember as i wasnt really looking at lampe.

As I said before, Lampe admitted that he was quite overweight when he played last summer.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
Joe Mama:

The problem with Marbury is that the Phoenix Suns wanted to build an athletic, running, scoring team.

I think you're right, but then trading Kidd was a mistake. They knew what kind of player Marbury was. And frankly, the running game right now sucks. Their conversion rate when they have a three-on-two has to be 50% or lower. They don't get the ball to the middle, the first pass comes too late, and then the recipient of the pass hesitates and looks for a trailer rather than just finishing himself.

Well, here's the catch. With Jason Kidd the Phoenix Suns were stuck as an above-average team in the Western Conference. With Jason Kidd there would have been no Amare Stoudemire. On top of that I've always been convinced that Jason Kidd would have left the Phoenix Suns high and dry last summer. They traded him when they could get some value.

I've got to disagree with you on the running game right now. They've been struggling over the last couple of games because they can't seem to stop anybody on defense. But I think they've shown signs of having a great running game. JJ, Shawn Marion, and Barbosa are all very good open court players.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Well, here's the catch. With Jason Kidd the Phoenix Suns were stuck as an above-average team in the Western Conference. With Jason Kidd there would have been no Amare Stoudemire. On top of that I've always been convinced that Jason Kidd would have left the Phoenix Suns high and dry last summer. They traded him when they could get some value.

I've got to disagree with you on the running game right now. They've been struggling over the last couple of games because they can't seem to stop anybody on defense. But I think they've shown signs of having a great running game. JJ, Shawn Marion, and Barbosa are all very good open court players.

Joe Mama

Considering how much the Spurs were willing to offer Kidd, I think it was self evident to the Colangelos that they would lose him.

I'm not sure it was as obvious to everyone that Marbury was ill suited to the running game. He did not play on running teams, so it was easy to imagine that a guy with his quickness would flourish in an open court environment.

I agree, I think the Suns are better open court team than before, although they still are inefficient. Unforutnately, it is hard to run if you don't stop people.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree Joe, our single biggest problem right now is defense. If our defense improves, I think you'll see improvement across the board in all aspects of our game.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I agree Joe, our single biggest problem right now is defense. If our defense improves, I think you'll see improvement across the board in all aspects of our game.

Defense and rebounding seem to be the bugaboos for this team all season. There was a bit of a discussion during the Toronto game about how everyone was suprised that the Suns wern't a better rebounding team. With the starting five of Barbosa, Johnson, Marion, Stoudamire and Voskhul, you would figure that they wouldn't constantly get outrebounded. Last year as well, the defense was much better, and the trapping zone seemed pretty effective at times. I am not sure whether it is the age and experience in terms of rebounding and defense, or the coaching. It very well might be neither....

 

[elindholm]

On top of that I've always been convinced that Jason Kidd would have left the Phoenix Suns high and dry last summer.

I know you're convinced of that, but I'm not. After all of the talk and speculation about him leaving the Nets, he didn't. The Suns would surely have had to max him out, as the Nets did, but I don't see a problem with that.

True, the Nets went to the Finals twice. But Kidd had to have known (as he knows now) that New Jersey was hardly any closer to a title than Phoenix was. If what he really wanted was to pursue a championship, he would have jumped ship to the Spurs. Instead he goes where Joumana tells him to go.

I don't know that the Kidds were comfortable in Phoenix, but based on how violently (ahem, sorry) they reacted to the trade, I'm guessing they would have been more than happy to stay put.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not pining for the days of Jason Kidd. Hell, if the Suns are going to have a woman abuser on their team, I'd much rather it be Bryant.

But, in general, I feel like the franchise has suffered from a profound lack of direction during the past several years, and the Marbury dump does nothing to change that view. They're a running team, they're a halfcourt team. They trap on defense, they want to play man-to-man. The offense starts inside, it starts with the guards. On and on.

The "direction" of the team is "up" now, because they are among the very worst in the league and there's nowhere else to go. So that is something. But my guess is that we're going to be pining for the many seasons of 50-and-fade within another year or two, because being hopelessly mired in the lottery doesn't sound very rewarding at all.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Another thing....anyone find Amare more effective and dominating when the ball wasn't run through him, ie last year? I am sick of seeing him hang around the perimeter, because it negates the agressiveness and power he has inside.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I agree Joe, our single biggest problem right now is defense. If our defense improves, I think you'll see improvement across the board in all aspects of our game.

I would hope so. However, I have a concern that the Suns use the trap to generate turnovers and get fast break points. The trap also makes the team vulnerable to good passing teams with outside shooters.

One key to playing good defense is to have an "efficient" offense - no turnovers and hit a high percentage of the shots taken. The Suns are still not terribly efficient on offense, which makes them vulnerable to teams grabbing long rebounds and getting their running game going.

Another key to good defense is to be able to play straight man to man against teams with several good shooters AND to be able to defend the post without double teams. The Suns have a long way to go to get a solid defense, but there is no other option.