Summer must-do list - Paul Coro - interesting article

[Kel Varnsen]

Mike D'Antoni's brother's name is Dan?

 

[playstation]

Wrong. No matter what size contract a team offers Finley, he will get the same total amount of money.

The Mavericks have to pay Finley:

Total Buyout - New salary

Where the new team obviously pays the new salary.



So no matter what Finley signs for, he will not get any more than the total buyout. It is just a matter of who gets footed with the bill.

I can't imagine Fins would be doing anything to help Cuban after releasing him, especially at the expense of his new team since his finances are unaffected.

I know this has been debated numerous times, but I still have a hard time with it. Exhibit A: Dikembe Mutombo. This man was waived from NJ with a $14M salary, then signs for the MLE with Houston for $4.5M, and is now making $18.5M (http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm), NOT $14M, as your postulate would assume.

Thus, I still have difficulties believing that a player can't get more $$$ after being waived. IMO, that passage from Larry Coon's article assumed the player waived is only offered vet. min on the open market, and is thus paid that amount. If he was offered more, he'd get more. What say you?

 

[playstation]

Mike D'Antoni's brother's name is Dan?

LOL, John Thompson is going to get killed next year. He already calls coach D "Dan DeeAnToNeeO", add his brother Dan to the mix, and the train crash has been predicted lol.

 

[Joe Mama]

I know this has been debated numerous times, but I still have a hard time with it. Exhibit A: Dikembe Mutombo. This man was waived from NJ with a $14M salary, then signs for the MLE with Houston for $4.5M, and is now making $18.5M (http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm), NOT $14M, as your postulate would assume.

Thus, I still have difficulties believing that a player can't get more $$$ after being waived. IMO, that passage from Larry Coon's article assumed the player waived is only offered vet. min on the open market, and is thus paid that amount. If he was offered more, he'd get more. What say you?

are you sure Mutombo didn't negotiate a buyout? Teams almost never flat out waive a player with a contract of that size.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

are you sure Mutombo didn't negotiate a buyout? Teams almost never flat out waive a player with a contract of that size.

Joe Mama

Deke did negotiate a buyout

 

[PhxGametime]

IMO if the team doesn't resign Steven Hunter or sign a replacement Chris Anderson, Dan Gadzuric, etc. (please stay away from Robert Traylor) then the team has gotten worse IMO... at least by looking at who they are going after in FA.


Sheesh, I was the biggest homer last year and I can't believe what's going on this year

 

[cly2tw]

I'd think the Suns would tell Payton, "You can have as many minutes as you earn." Its not like the rest of the team is a bunch of rookies and Payton knows that.

So true. In fact, in the playoffs, only those who can perform under pressure will get significant minutes. With Payton's experience, he shouldn't worry about it as long as he is physically top fit. DA will always play the best talents available.

 

[coloradosun]

So true. In fact, in the playoffs, only those who can perform under pressure will get significant minutes. With Payton's experience, he shouldn't worry about it as long as he is physically top fit. DA will always play the best talents available.

I just can't see the Suns wanting any part of Gary Payton now. Last year they wanted to take advantage of having a great record at the trading deadline and bring him in for the remainder of the season, then they were going to be done with him. If another injury came Nash's way, they would have an insurance policy and not jeopardize a great season. That is all the Suns wanted from Payton was insurance to get deep into the playoffs if Nash got hurt, that was all. Get Gary Payton out your minds.

Payton would be a better fit in Miami or Minnesota, there is no question about that. Cassell wrote his epitaph last year and once Wade went down the Heat suffered.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

That is all the Suns wanted from Payton was insurance to get deep into the playoffs if Nash got hurt, that was all. Get Gary Payton out your minds.

I dont think that is the only reason they wanted Payton, although it was a big one.

They also wanted to have a PG that could come in without the play level dropping. Nash was exhausted by the WCF, Payton would have saved him some air.

They still need a person for that, which is why Payton is talked about.

 

[coloradosun]

SAR - I'm sorry, but I think he is a horrible fit with the Phoenix Suns. The team does not need more scorers,

Yes this guy can score averaging 20 pts a game on bad teams. You overlook the fact that he also averages 8 rebounds a game and 3 assists. Average a block and a steal a game just like Thomas. He is 6'9' (same as Amare and Thomas) 245 lbs. (heavier than Thomas). I think it would be great to have 3- 6'9" guys that you can rotate. This is the guy.

Payton - he could be a possibility,

I don't see it as a possibility in Gary's world. He is on trial in Canada this weekend and could face up to 10 years in prison.

Finley - like Q could play the 2 or the 3.

Bell - Bell is absolutely not a point guard.

You are right here, he is no point guard. I prefer Juan Dixon

Lithuanian - no way, we still have Milos.

Marshall - I've liked Marshall for a long time.

This guy is the scorer you think SAR tends to be, this guy is a chucker.

Chris Andersen - I like this guy. This guy is a flake he will not fit in.

Joe Mama

My thoughts on your analysis.

 

[cly2tw]

First, the new guy (forget his handle) with the insider info about the Suns going to sign a pg that played with Nash in Dallas--he was right. Its Raja Bell. Good choice.

Second. Hunter says he expect to return to the Suns. He also said that his desire is a longer term deal. The Suns could offer Hunter a 4 year 10 million deal and he would stay. Its probably worth it. Split the mle between Hunter and Arvydas. I'm ok with that.

Ah, that was Raja Bell as Nash's backup in Dallas? That explains everything. Nash knew himself what it's all about: Defense of the penetrations in the playoffs! He might not be a PG, but he is capable of bringing the ball up the court. And looking back at Rockets championships, with a dominant bigman in Dream, they didn't even needed a true PG. Our offense is gonna be more focused on Amare next year. So, with a good 3-pt shot, Bell would be perfect here. Maybe we can get him sign-n-traded for Jake + right for Vujanic from Utah.

Also, 4 years 10 mil will start around 1.7 probably. Despite his inconsistency, it'd be worth to keep him at this price.

 

[asudevil83]

Deke did negotiate a buyout

and that is the diffence.

but.....i did catch this from that cap site:

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived during the 2003 offseason, with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another NBA team for the 03-04 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $563,679 (the minimum for a one-year veteran in 03-04), divided by two, or $218,160.50. If this player had a $5 million salary with his prior team, then his prior team would be responsible for the remaining $4,781,839.50. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,781,839.50, which was more than he made prior to being waived.

this implies that a player can be signed for more than the vet min. its really hard to tell at this point.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Gary's trial in Canada has absolutely zero relevence on him signing anywhere.

 

[playstation]

Deke did negotiate a buyout

sweet, i'm so happy i was wrong

 

[George O'Brien]

The reason buys agree to buyouts is so they can get the extra money (and perhaps play). Otherwise, why give up a million or two like Eisley did, when all he has to do is sit around on the injured list and collect his check.

As for Michael Finley, I just don't know how healthy he is. He recently had surgery following a season where he was clearly not 100%, but still averaged 36.8 minutes a game.

If he returns to the level he was the year before, Finley would be a major addition: 18.6 ppg, 44.3% shooting plus 40.5% for three, 4.5 rpg, and almost 3 assists per game.

The Suns would have to make a major commitment to him in terms of getting him minutes, but for a guy who last seaons on bad wheels shot 40.7% for three that doesn't sound so difficult.

 

[Yuma]

The reason buys agree to buyouts is so they can get the extra money (and perhaps play). Otherwise, why give up a million or two like Eisley did, when all he has to do is sit around on the injured list and collect his check.

As for Michael Finley, I just don't know how healthy he is. He recently had surgery following a season where he was clearly not 100%, but still averaged 36.8 minutes a game.

If he returns to the level he was the year before, Finley would be a major addition: 18.6 ppg, 44.3% shooting plus 40.5% for three, 4.5 rpg, and almost 3 assists per game.

The Suns would have to make a major commitment to him in terms of getting him minutes, but for a guy who last seaons on bad wheels shot 40.7% for three that doesn't sound so difficult.

Both Payton and Finley have lost steps. They may not be the best pieces. I just look at what else is available and it's either not that good or too expensive!

 

[HooverDam]

Even if Finley played like he did last year, I would be happy w/ that (if he is on the Suns that is). Lets compare his number to Qs from last year, and consider if Finley came here, he'd be much cheaper:

Finley: Q:

PPG 15.7 14.9
RPG 4.1 6.1
APG 2.6 2.0
SPG .75 1.22
BPG .28 .34
FG%.427 .389
FT% .831 .739
3P% .407 .358
MPG 36.8 35.9

So Q is slightly better all around, but Finley is a better shooter. Adding Finley for the vet minimum would completely solve the loss of Q IMO.

 

[myrondizzo]

Gary's trial in Canada has absolutely zero relevence on him signing anywhere.

i dont know being close to mexico might be a draw (just in case he gets convicted he can make a run for the border.)

 

[elindholm]

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived during the 2003 offseason, with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another NBA team for the 03-04 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $563,679 (the minimum for a one-year veteran in 03-04), divided by two, or $218,160.50. If this player had a $5 million salary with his prior team, then his prior team would be responsible for the remaining $4,781,839.50. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,781,839.50, which was more than he made prior to being waived.

asudevil83, which site is this from? If it's from Coon's FAQ, that's very strange, because it's contradicted by something else on the same site.

If you'd be willing to post the exact source and location, that would help a lot, and maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[lancelet's cousin]

i dont know being close to mexico might be a draw (just in case he gets convicted he can make a run for the border.)

Have you seen Mexico's new stamps?

Maybe he should just tough it out in the cozy Canadian Pokey if it comes to that.

You must be registered for see images

 

[asudevil83]

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived during the 2003 offseason, with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another NBA team for the 03-04 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $563,679 (the minimum for a one-year veteran in 03-04), divided by two, or $218,160.50. If this player had a $5 million salary with his prior team, then his prior team would be responsible for the remaining $4,781,839.50. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,781,839.50, which was more than he made prior to being waived.

asudevil83, which site is this from? If it's from Coon's FAQ, that's very strange, because it's contradicted by something else on the same site.

If you'd be willing to post the exact source and location, that would help a lot, and maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

it's from Coon's....Rule 52.

Rule 53 though completely contradicts it.

 

[Joe Mama]

SAR - I'm sorry, but I think he is a horrible fit with the Phoenix Suns. The team does not need more scorers,

Yes this guy can score averaging 20 pts a game on bad teams. You overlook the fact that he also averages 8 rebounds a game and 3 assists. Average a block and a steal a game just like Thomas. He is 6'9' (same as Amare and Thomas) 245 lbs. (heavier than Thomas). I think it would be great to have 3- 6'9" guys that you can rotate. This is the guy.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim team might very well average as many steals and as many blocks as Kurt Thomas, but if you think he is even in the same league as a defender you haven't watched him play. I would rather have Shawn Marion defending power forwards. I think he would help some, but I think they can do much better with the mid-level exception. Besides, I really think he's going to sign with a team like New Jersey where he will clearly be a starter.

Payton - he could be a possibility,

I don't see it as a possibility in Gary's world. He is on trial in Canada this weekend and could face up to 10 years in prison.

I had forgotten about his legal problems in Canada until I saw it some more late yesterday. I definitely think the Phoenix Suns would prefer someone like Michael Finley or a few of the other possible guards like Bell.

Finley - like Q could play the 2 or the 3.

Yep, I think he's kind of a no-brainer if it's really possible to get him for the minimum. I also think it would be good to keep him away from Denver.

Bell - Bell is absolutely not a point guard.

You are right here, he is no point guard. I prefer Juan Dixon

Dixon might have better assist numbers than Bell, but he really isn't a point guard either. I've seen him play many times in the NBA. I really don't remember his defense is something that stood out to me. In college his defense was pretty good though. I would rather have Bell because I think he's a better shooter at this point. I also think he's big enough to defend both backcourt positions. I wouldn't complain about Dixon though.

Lithuanian - no way, we still have Milos.

At least for the next season Vujanic is a nonfactor. If this guy really is a deadeye outside shooter I could see bringing him in for the minimum or maybe the smaller exception, but according to Hcilla is not a good defender. In fact it sounds like he's not going to be very good for much more than shooting in the NBA. One of the Phoenix Suns biggest problems in the playoffs was allowing too much penetration from the perimeter. It's probably not a good idea to give a guy a bunch of money when he's going to make it worse in that area.

Marshall - I've liked Marshall for a long time.

This guy is the scorer you think SAR tends to be, this guy is a chucker.

First of all, you only took the first sentence for the part of my post about Marshall. If you read further I said his age was a concern, and I probably wouldn't be happy if he got the full mid-level exception unless they could somehow steal a quality true quality big man for the minimum. The nice thing about Marshall is that he can really spread an offense. He's a very good three-point shooter. He's not a world-class defender by any means, but he's still better than SAR.

BTW I'm not sure where you got your numbers on SAR. For his entire career he averaged 0.8 blocks per game and 2.7 assists per game. I assume you rounded up on his career numbers. However last season he averaged just 0.7 blocks per 48 minutes Shareef Abdur-Rahim averaged 2.9 assists for 48 minutes last year. Donyell Marshall averaged 2.4. The difference is that Marshall only averaged 1.2 turnovers per 48 minutes while SAR averaged 3.0.

Chris Andersen - I like this guy.

This guy is a flake he will not fit in.

That is some great analysis. Perhaps you could explain more thoroughly. Are you talking about his play on the court or his mental makeup?

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

The reason buys agree to buyouts is so they can get the extra money (and perhaps play). Otherwise, why give up a million or two like Eisley did, when all he has to do is sit around on the injured list and collect his check.

Players negotiate buyouts most of the time, so they can get some playing time with another team. If they make more money than the original contract was paying the difference is usually negligible (by NBA standards).

Joe Mama

 

[coloradosun]

Chris Andersen - I like this guy.


That is some great analysis. Perhaps you could explain more thoroughly. Are you talking about his play on the court or his mental makeup?

Joe Mama

The Suns are always aiming for people that will fit in, you got to admit that Paul Shirley may not have been productive but he was a very cerebral guy. I live in Denver and have listened a lot of Chris Anderson's interviews, he not quite on the same wavelength as you and I. I just don't see him having anyone to blend with on the current squad, he is a hustle guy but that is because of his right brain tendencies and hyperactivity.

 

[Kolo]

52. Do released players count against the cap?
Released (waived) players with guaranteed contracts continue to be included in the team salary. Players whose contracts are not guaranteed, including training camp invitees who do not make the opening day roster, are included in team salary in the amount they made while they were with the team.

If another team signs a released player who had a guaranteed contract (as long as the player has cleared waivers -- see question number 53 ), the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money they still owe the player (and lower their team salary) by a commensurate amount (this is called the right of set-off). This is true if the player signs with any professional team -- it doesn't even have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).


For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived during the 2003 offseason, with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another NBA team for the 03-04 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $563,679 (the minimum for a one-year veteran in 03-04), divided by two, or $218,160.50. If this player had a $5 million salary with his prior team, then his prior team would be responsible for the remaining $4,781,839.50. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,781,839.50, which was more than he made prior to being waived.


There was some controversy about what happens to player options (see question number 48 ) if the player is released before the option can be exercised. Newer contracts contain specific language that details exactly what happens to option years when a player is waived. But older contracts still exist which are ambiguous about this point. For example, it was rumored that the Heat would waive Anthony Carter (whose contract contains the older, ambiguous language) in 2003, before Carter could exercise his option for the 03-04 season. Any such action would likely be greived, but so far every team that has found itself in this situation has instead agreed to a buyout with the player, so this situation has yet to be tested.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

53. What are waivers?
It's a temporary status for players who are released by their team. A player released between August 15th and the end of the regular season stays on waivers for 48 hours. A player released at any other time stays on waivers for 10 days. During the waiver period other teams may claim a waived player. If more than one team tries to claim the player, the team with the worst record gets him. If a player on waivers is claimed, the new team acquires his existing contract and pays the remainder of his salary. There is also a fee of $1,000, payable to the league office, for claiming a waived player.

A team can claim a waived player only if one of the following is true:

The team is far enough under the salary cap to fit the player's entire salary.


The team has a disabled player exception for at least the player's salary (see question number 17 ).


The team has a trade exception for at least the player's salary (see question number 68 ).


The player's contract is for one or two seasons and he is paid the minimum salary.
If no team claims a waived player, he is said to have "cleared waivers." The player may sign with the team of his choice at that point. The player's new team only pays the pro-rated minimum salary to the player. The player's original team continues to pay the balance of the player's salary. For this reason, few players are actually claimed while on waivers.

If a player is waived after March 1, he is ineligible to be included in the playoff roster of any team that signs him for the remainder of that season.

Here's what I think this means. The Mavericks are entitled to a set-off on Finley's salary when he signs with a new team. The set-off = 1/2 of the difference between the new salary and the NBA minimum salary (let's say $500,000). So let's say the Mavericks owe him $17 million per year, and after he clears waivers we sign him for $5 million per year. The Mavericks can set-off 1/2 of the difference between $5 million and $500,000--which is $2.25 million.

In that scenario, Finley would get $14.75 million from the Mavericks and $5 million from us, or $19.75 million. In practical terms, he gets a variable percentage more than half of what he signs for on top of what the Mavericks owe him. It's be costing us $5 million per year, but he'd only be getting $2.75 million per year more.

Rule 52 suggests that a player can sign for any salary, while 53 presupposes that he'll get the league minimum regardless. I'd bet when 53 was written, the only guys being waived were useless, and got the league minimum as a matter of course, and that players can sign for any amount allowable under the CBA.

Disclaimer--my analysis could be dead wrong, in which case I take this all back.