Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[Chaplin]

SSOL failed too many times for me to consider fast-paced offense any kind of magic bullet. We saw Chris Paul's Suns find more success, if for only one year, and they used a more deliberate offense. (Of course I mean that they reached the finals, which the SSOL Suns never did.) To hear that Paul had his Suns playing great defense frankly impressed me more than the scoring and speed of SSOL.

To be fair, the SSOL Suns would have reached two separate finals if a) the suspensions didn't happen and b) Joe Johnson didn't break his face.

And in fact, I think both those times we had a very good chance of winning it all that year -- especially the one with Joe Johnson.

 

[95pro]

SSOL failed too many times for me to consider fast-paced offense any kind of magic bullet. We saw Chris Paul's Suns find more success, if for only one year, and they used a more deliberate offense. (Of course I mean that they reached the finals, which the SSOL Suns never did.) To hear that Paul had his Suns playing great defense frankly impressed me more than the scoring and speed of SSOL.

We were hit with so many blows during that era

JJ's face
Amare's knees
Amare's eye
Nash's nose
The Horry hip check

We win at least one ship with inferior easter conference challengers. Maybe two if things went right. The finals year, things just barely went right with plays like the Valley ooop, and CP3'd body just barely getting by.

 

[GatorAZ]

Steve Nash, speaking only about offense, is the best pure point guard I've ever seen. His biggest flaw, other than his lack of physicality (mostly, his inability to handle that physicality), was that he was too unselfish. During his peak years he averaged 11 assists and 3.5 turnovers per game along with scoring in the mid to high teens with great efficiency. Those are superstar numbers.

It's a team game and he was the ultimate team player but had he wanted to I believe he could have easily averaged close to 30. In comparing the two, keep in mind there's a reason he won two MVP titles while Tyus spent most of his career backing up other PGs. And he's also the reason that a lot of high quality rotation players chose to sign with Phoenix, he makes other players better and ultimately made those players more money.

Getting Tyus was a huge steal for us but part of that "steal" was that we got him without giving up any assets. He's not a great overall guard but he is a very good facilitator and with the weapons we have he should have a banner year on offense. But it still won't be a Steve Nash year, he just isn't in that class. JMO.

Yeah the issue was more his body than being too unselfish IMO. Look back at that stretch in the 05’ playoffs without Joe where Nash averaged 35 ppg. He had to work so hard to score, attacking the rim and shooting a ton. He shot a lot of fadeaways which are killers for your back. He also had to be mindful that some of those says were pretty sensitive about their numbers. Joe wanted a bigger role, Shawn was always felt under appreciated and Amare was no picnic. And to add we never had an adequate backup PG once Joe left.

 

[GatorAZ]

We were hit with so many blows during that era

JJ's face
Amare's knees
Amare's eye
Nash's nose
The Horry hip check

We win at least one ship with inferior easter conference challengers. Maybe two if things went right. The finals year, things just barely went right with plays like the Valley ooop, and CP3'd body just barely getting by.

No to mention cheap ownership contributing to poor depth during a title window. The Suns could’ve acquired Rashard Lewis or Mike Miller at the 07’ deadline but didn’t want to pay them. There were a ton of opportunities to build depth via draft or trade those years.

 

[Chaplin]

No to mention cheap ownership contributing to poor depth during a title window. The Suns could’ve acquired Rashard Lewis or Mike Miller at the 07’ deadline but didn’t want to pay them. There were a ton of opportunities to build depth via draft or trade those years.

That's nice, but the reason why we didn't acquire them was because Mike D wasn't going to play them. Why pay a lot for depth when they aren't even going to play?

 

[Mainstreet]

SSOL failed too many times for me to consider fast-paced offense any kind of magic bullet. We saw Chris Paul's Suns find more success, if for only one year, and they used a more deliberate offense. (Of course I mean that they reached the finals, which the SSOL Suns never did.) To hear that Paul had his Suns playing great defense frankly impressed me more than the scoring and speed of SSOL.

Since you were talking about turnovers, I was pointing out that a point guard is going to have more turnovers playing at a fast pace than a deliberate pace.

 

[Peter Sheldon]

To be fair, the SSOL Suns would have reached two separate finals if a) the suspensions didn't happen and b) Joe Johnson didn't break his face.

And in fact, I think both those times we had a very good chance of winning it all that year -- especially the one with Joe Johnson.

a) you mean the one where Nash got body-checked into Nebraska, and the two tallest players on the Suns made the mistake of standing up in horror? Oh, in that same game, Tim Duncan got a pass for doing the same thing....that game? Oh and next game Nash almost wins it single handily without said two tall players. Refs sure loved them some small-market Spurs. Still makes no sense to me.

 

[GatorAZ]

That's nice, but the reason why we didn't acquire them was because Mike D wasn't going to play them. Why pay a lot for depth when they aren't even going to play?

D’Antoni wasn’t going to play Mike Miller or Rashard Lewis over James Jones? I disagree with that considering they fit his system to a tee. Sarver didn’t want to pay them and ended up selling the picks that would’ve been used to acquire them.

 

[Phrazbit]

And yet the consensus is that he hardly impacted the team's W-L, which means that having even higher expectations for him is quite unrealistic.

Our winning percentage was quite a bit better with him healthy. 16-13 without him, 33-20 with him.

For comparison, we went 5-2 without Durant and when Booker didn't play we went 6-8.

 

[Proximo]

And yet the consensus is that he hardly impacted the team's W-L, which means that having even higher expectations for him is quite unrealistic.

We absolutely are better with Beal - we just aren't as much better as fans expected so they have turned against him.

But it isn't really his fault, the problem is Book and him are somewhat redundant and when both are on the floor they will both not achieve their true value to the team.

Honestly we would be far better off if Beal was our 6th man and we rarely played him together with Book. Well we would be if we had actual usefull role player forwards, which we currently don't.

 

[Cheesebeef]

a) you mean the one where Nash got body-checked into Nebraska, and the two tallest players on the Suns made the mistake of standing up in horror? Oh, in that same game, Tim Duncan got a pass for doing the same thing....that game? Oh and next game Nash almost wins it single handily without said two tall players. Refs sure loved them some small-market Spurs. Still makes no sense to me.

Nash didn’t almost win the next game singlehandedly. He was actually terrible in that game, shooting 6-19 and couldn’t close to save his life after Marion gave us a great start en route to an 18 point first half lead. Of course Marion then totally disappeared in the second half and Nash continued to stink and we lost a heartbreaker.

If Nash had just been average that game we probably win.

 

[Hoop Head]

To be fair, the SSOL Suns would have reached two separate finals if a) the suspensions didn't happen and b) Joe Johnson didn't break his face.

And in fact, I think both those times we had a very good chance of winning it all that year -- especially the one with Joe Johnson.

So now we're just anointing them as finalists? Every team has injuries and bad breaks. Play the hand you're dealt. We weren't bearing the Spurs in 05 either, JJ healthy or not. Amare was dominant but no one else showed up. San Antonio was on another level.

Do the Clippers fans say they'd have won the title when we made the finals if PG and Kawhi weren't injury prone? No because there's no reason to celebrate what could have been. You don't hang banners with asterisks but given the Suns hang divisional banners, I guess there's a reason most of us say "we would be champs if...." and insert your favorite narrative, be it Kareem coin flip, Amare's knees, Iso Joe's extension, the Amare/Diaw suspensions, crooked refs, Sarver, whatever.

It's an insult to every champion from the mid 2000's to try and slap asterisks on their titles for things completely out of their control.

 

[Phrazbit]

Nash didn’t almost win the next game singlehandedly. He was actually terrible in that game, shooting 6-19 and couldn’t close to save his life after Marion gave us a great start en route to an 18 point first half lead. Of course Marion then totally disappeared in the second half and Nash continued to stink and we lost a heartbreaker.

If Nash had just been average that game we probably win.

Brutal loss. That series will follow my soul to to the grave. Game 1 actually hurt more at the time than game 5, the nose bleed game... shoulda won that one too... infuriating.

As for game 5, we played a 6 man rotation, our best scorer, by far, was out. Nash still had 12 assists, Marion had 17 boards and 24 points... they got gassed. Probably one of the many games that Nash looks back on and wishes he'd shot more, despite being cold. I think one of Nash's issues late in games was that he was always looking to pass first, and the other team always knew it. The only series I remember Nash looking to be super aggressive as a scorer was against Dallas in 05, and he ripped their guts out.

 

[Chaplin]

So now we're just anointing them as finalists? Every team has injuries and bad breaks. Play the hand you're dealt. We weren't bearing the Spurs in 05 either, JJ healthy or not. Amare was dominant but no one else showed up. San Antonio was on another level.

Do the Clippers fans say they'd have won the title when we made the finals if PG and Kawhi weren't injury prone? No because there's no reason to celebrate what could have been. You don't hang banners with asterisks but given the Suns hang divisional banners, I guess there's a reason most of us say "we would be champs if...." and insert your favorite narrative, be it Kareem coin flip, Amare's knees, Iso Joe's extension, the Amare/Diaw suspensions, crooked refs, Sarver, whatever.

It's an insult to every champion from the mid 2000's to try and slap asterisks on their titles for things completely out of their control.

Once again, your personal feelings are bizarrely affecting your posting. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about here other than trying to start a fight. Again.

You are so full of hate and negativity.

 

[Ronin]

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[Hoop Head]

Once again, your personal feelings are bizarrely affecting your posting. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about here other than trying to start a fight. Again.

You are so full of hate and negativity.

Really going that route? Someone pointed out how the SSOL team didn't make a finals while CP3's Suns did but you wanted to say the SSOL Suns should have won multiple titles and rolled out some excuses. This isn't personal but you'll dodge it claiming it is, since you don't have a real retort. However it's insulting to the teams who won to say the SSOL Suns should have won titles when they never even made it to dance. Every team deals with adversity, welcome to the NBA. Because you might have been better one season doesn't account for anything. It doesn't raise a banner. So take all your moral wins and what it's and tell me what they're good for?

 

[95pro]

Brutal loss. That series will follow my soul to to the grave. Game 1 actually hurt more at the time than game 5, the nose bleed game... shoulda won that one too... infuriating.

As for game 5, we played a 6 man rotation, our best scorer, by far, was out. Nash still had 12 assists, Marion had 17 boards and 24 points... they got gassed. Probably one of the many games that Nash looks back on and wishes he'd shot more, despite being cold. I think one of Nash's issues late in games was that he was always looking to pass first, and the other team always knew it. The only series I remember Nash looking to be super aggressive as a scorer was against Dallas in 05, and he ripped their guts out.

I completely agree, teams knew our gameplan. They would let Nash do his thing and then when crunch time came we were out of gas and knew they could clamp down in fourth.

 

[Raindog]

I completely agree, teams knew our gameplan. They would let Nash do his thing and then when crunch time came we were out of gas and knew they could clamp down in fourth.

Being out of gas all the time was strictly on D'Antoni. He was an idiot at managing rotations, always having a short bench even in meaningless regular season games, and basically running his best players into the ground over the course of the season. Obstinate to a fault, he was more responsible for the Suns perennially coming up short in the post season than just about anyone.

 

[GatorAZ]

Being out of gas all the time was strictly on D'Antoni. He was an idiot at managing rotations, always having a short bench even in meaningless regular season games, and basically running his best players into the ground over the course of the season. Obstinate to a fault, he was more responsible for the Suns perennially coming up short in the post season than just about anyone.

Remember how much we had to rely on castoffs like Jim Jackson and Tim Thomas just to have a respectable 7-man rotation some of those years. If Mike was given the opportunity to play better guys he would have. Some of it was on him and some on ownership. I don’t remember exactly how the Bryan Colangelo thing went down but we didn’t have a GM for two years.

 

[Raindog]

Remember how much we had to rely on castoffs like Jim Jackson and Tim Thomas just to have a respectable 7-man rotation some of those years. If Mike was given the opportunity to play better guys he would have. Some of it was on him and some on ownership. I don’t remember exactly how the Bryan Colangelo thing went down but we didn’t have a GM for two years.

Sarver made D'Antoni the GM by proxy (and eventually, officially), indeed out of cheapness. Sarver sucked for sure, but D'Antoni didn't help with his stubborn idiot "philosophies" - short rotations, overplaying his core, ignoring defense and rebounding, his disdain for playing rookies (or even having them on the roster), and his one note offensive approach.

 

[Ronin]

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[Phrazbit]

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Not sure how this metric is quantified, but it's suspect. Nurk, Harris and especially Sabonis are all objectively bad defensive players.

 

[Covert Rain]

Not sure how this metric is quantified, but it's suspect. Nurk, Harris and especially Sabonis are all objectively bad defensive players.

This has to be head to head match-ups because the Suns paint defense, our measurable overall drop swapping out Head case (Ayton) for Nurk was notable.

 

[Suns_fan69]

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KD was KD, but Dunn looked a lot better than I was expecting offensively. Some pull up 3s, fadeaway 2s, good dribble drives... all shot with confidence. Lots of caveats obviously (1 on 1 isn't team basketball, let's see him do it in a real game, yadda yadda yadda), but still promising nonetheless.

 

[GatorAZ]

Let’s retweet this vid at the trade deadline:
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