Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[Phrazbit]

Seems like a pretty outrageous comment that isn't supported by Plus/minus. Book's is much worse than Durant's this season per the above. Not that plus/minus is a be all end all either. If you find something let me know but I think you are to focused on making it a Durant verses Book thing. I think it's a both of them thing and the point a couple other posters have pointed out as well.

The overall point is the onus should be on both of them to shore up one of the worst aspects of this team. Especially, when they lead that category which was the original point that the original poster was making. I was just providing supporting evidence since he said he hadn't had a chance to look it up.

We have quality guard depth, our forward and front court depth is absolutely awful. That is why Durant has a better plus minus, when he sits down, he is typically replaced by someone who barely has a spot in the league.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've noticed and commented a few times on this subject. KD is just so overrated, can't get him off the team fast enough.

Did you guys forget that we looked like the worst team in the NBA in the 10 games KD missed when Booker and co led us to a sterling 1-9 record?

The mix of players obviously doesn’t work and KD is a major reason why, but this team is an absolute, all-time league bad team without him.

 

[Covert Rain]

Did you guys forget that we looked like the worst team in the NBA in the 10 games KD missed when Booker and co led us to a sterling 1-9 record?

The mix of players obviously doesn’t work and KD is a major reason why, but this team is an absolute, all-time league bad team without him.

This is why I don't get why we need to make this a KD vs Book thing. To me this is an "AND" thing. Keep in mind Devin Booker had 178 total turnovers all last season. He is at 176 with 23 games to go. He is on pace to get around the same number of assists or less but will have more turnovers.

Book is just as much to blame with how this team is performing which is why IMO it's an "and" thing.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is why I don't get why we need to make this a KD vs Book thing. To me this is an "AND" thing. Keep in mind Devin Booker had 178 total turnovers all last season. He is at 176 with more of the season left. He is on pace to get around the same number of assists or less but will have more turnovers.

Book is just as much to blame with how this team is performing which is why IMO it's an "and" thing.

When talking specifically about turnovers, as has been the focus the last few pages, that is a Durant thing. Booker is and has been, by every metric, an extremely good passer at his position, while Durant has been absolutely horrendous by every metric no matter the position.

 

[Covert Rain]

When talking specifically about turnovers, as has been the focus the last few pages, that is a Durant thing. Booker is and has been, by every metric, an extremely good passer at his position, while Durant has been absolutely horrendous by every metric no matter the position.

It's not just a Durant thing though. It's a Booker thing too. He is on pace to have the most turnovers in his career since the 2019-2020 season. He makes up almost an equal proportion of total turnovers.

However, again, I am just strictly talking about one of the teams biggest issues which is Turnovers and Book has been horrendous as well.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's not just a Durant thing though. It's a Booker thing too. He is on pace to the most turnovers in his career since the 2019-2020 season. He makes up almost an equal proportion of total turnovers. Because we know turnovers has been a thing, regardless of how many assists he has, it's still just as detrimental to the teams success.

Booker's turnover rate is GOOD for a player who handles the ball as much as he does and who creates as many shots for others as he does. Durant's is TERRIBLE. Statistically... it's kind of hard to slice it any other way.

For Booker to have a lower turnover rate, given all he is asked to do in this offense, he'd need to be one of the absolute best passers in basketball.

 

[Covert Rain]

Booker's turnover rate is GOOD for a player who handles the ball as much as he does and who creates as many shots for others as he does. Durant's is TERRIBLE. Statistically... it's kind of hard to slice it any other way.

For Booker to have a lower turnover rate, given all he is asked to do in this offense, he'd need to be one of the absolute best passers in basketball.

Players who touch the ball more are going to have more turnovers. So, that doesn't tell the entire story. Because we know turnovers has been a thing, regardless of how many assists he has, it's still just as detrimental to the teams success. Team wins related to team turnovers doesn't lie. Book is on a terrible TO pace and will likely finish with around the same number of assists as last season. Meaning less efficient when all is said and done.

For the record there is only 5 other PFs in the league with higher assists totals than KD. So, he is no slouch either in that category.

I am not arguing Book is all at fault. I am saying he is a major contributor to why this team loses when our turnovers are high.

 

[BirdGangThing]

another thing both book and kd do that the rookies don't - sit there whining about the no-call as the other team streaks down leaving us undermanned on defense - book actually did it less last night but neither can help it

 

[Phrazbit]

Players who touch the ball are going to have more turnovers. So, that doesn't tell the entire story. Because we know turnovers has been a thing, regardless of how many assists he has, it's still just as detrimental to the teams success. Team wins related to team turnovers doesn't lie.

You're right... guys who touch the ball a lot are going to have a lot of turnovers. Most of guys who are among the most turnover prone players in the league are also the heaviest usage guys and are among the league's assist leaders.

Durant is 9th in turnovers in the league and 56th in assists. He is in rarefied air when it comes to turning the ball over a TON while also not collecting assists... air so rarefied that he is the WORST in the NBA among high usage players. Meanwhile, Booker is 10th in assists and 22nd in turnovers. His passing efficiency is one of his BEST stats.

We are not comparing apples to apples, or apples to oranges... this is a comparison of apples to stones.

There is a lot that goes into wins and loses, turnovers don't tell the whole story, but when it comes to turnovers on our team, Booker is not part of the problem and Durant is literally one of the sloppiest players in the league.

 

[Covert Rain]

You're right... guys who touch the ball a lot are going to have a lot of turnovers. Most of guys who are among the most turnover prone players in the league are also the heaviest usage guys and are among the league's assist leaders.

Durant is 9th in turnovers in the league and 56th in assists. He is in rarefied air when it comes to turning the ball over a TON while also not collecting assists... air so rarefied that he is the WORST in the NBA among high usage players. Meanwhile, Booker is 10th in assists and 22nd in turnovers. His passing efficiency is one of his BEST stats.

We are not comparing apples to apples, or apples to oranges... this is a comparison of apples to stones.

There is a lot that goes into wins and loses, turnovers don't tell the whole story, but when it comes to turnovers on our team, Booker is not part of the problem and Durant is literally one of the sloppiest players in the league.

That disingenuous. First off, Book and KD have two completely different roles. Book's job when he plays Point Book is to get guys the ball. KD does that some but that's not his job. At his position there are only 5 other players that pass better than KD. You are correct there is a ton that goes into winning and losing but one thing in the league that is constant is teams that turn the ball over a ton doesn't translate into a ton of success.

Book is 100% part of the problem. Not the only problem. But what he does well doesn't negate that. Heck. Book admitted earlier this season he has to turnover the ball less or he is hurting the team.

 

[Phrazbit]

That disingenuous. First off, Book and KD have two completely different roles. Book's job when he plays Point Book is to get guys the ball. KD does that some but that's not his job. At his position there are only 5 other players that pass better than KD. You are correct there is a ton that goes into winning and losing but one thing in the league that is constant is teams that turn the ball over a ton doesn't translate into a ton of success.

Book is 100% part of the problem. Not the only problem. But what he does well doesn't negate that. Heck. Book admitted earlier this season he has to turnover the ball less or he is hurting the team.

It's not disingenuous, it is a fact. Durant has been one of the sloppiest players in the league this season. When you say only "5 players pass better", now you're only looking at assists by power forwards and you're ignoring the turnovers. Durant's assist to turnover ratio... the benchmark for measuring how well one takes care of the ball, is TERRIBLE, there are not any high usage players as bad as him in the stat. Even among front court guys, he is awful when it comes to taking care of the ball.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's not disingenuous, it is a fact. Durant has been one of the sloppiest players in the league this season. When you say only "5 players pass better", now you're only looking at assists by power forwards and you're ignoring the turnovers. Durant's assist to turnover ratio... the benchmark for measuring how well one takes care of the ball, is TERRIBLE, there are not any high usage players as bad as him in the stat. Even among front court guys, he is awful when it comes to taking care of the ball.

Huh? I said at his position. Only 5 Power Forwards pass better than he does. I looked at turnovers and pointed them out earlier in the discussion. I pointed out they both have a turnover problem that contributes to losses. So, no I have not ignored anything. I am calling them both out for contributing to one of the issues we see with this team. Only one of us is trying to give one of them a pass. I am calling them both out.

I am looking at both. Durant is #3 at his position in TO's. Book is #3 at his position in TO's. BOTH. Again, I hate looking at one stat in a vacuum because that doesn't tell the entire story.

Which Shooting Guard Has The Most Turnovers This Season | StatMuse

Anthony Edwards has the most turnovers by a shooting guard this season with 217 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Which Power Forward Has The Most Turnovers This Season | StatMuse

Jayson Tatum has committed the most turnovers by a power forward this season with 186 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Phrazbit]

Huh? I said at his position. Only 5 Power Forwards pass better than he does. I looked at turnovers and pointed them out earlier in the discussion. I pointed out they both have a turnover problem that contributes to losses. So, no I have not ignored anything. I am calling them both out for contributing to one of the issues we see with this team. Only one of us is trying to give one of them a pass. I am calling them both out.

Except this isn't true... this is what I meant when you are only looking at assists, when you look at assist to turnover ratio he is among the worst at any position in basketball... but... whatever.

I don't know why you're digging your heels in on this particular point, Durant is a terrible passer, he does a lot well but as a passer he is horrible, it is an objective fact.

 

[Covert Rain]

Except this isn't true... this is what I meant when you are only looking at assists, when you look at assist to turnover ratio he is among the worst at any position in basketball... but... whatever.

I don't know why you're digging your heels in on this particular point, Durant is a terrible passer, he does a lot well but as a passer he is horrible, it is an objective fact.

Wanting to hold them both accountable is digging my heals in? OK. I will gladly take that. I don't know why you don't want to hold both accountable for their shortcomings. That's you digging your heals in. I didn't make this a Book vs Durant thing. You did.

P.S. They are both 3rd worst at their respective positions in turnover ratio too.

Which Shooting Guard Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Anthony Edwards has the most turnovers by a shooting guard this season with 217 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Which Power Forward Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Jayson Tatum has the most turnovers by a power forward this season with 186 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Phrazbit]

Wanting to hold them both accountable is digging my heals in? OK. I will gladly take that. I don't know why you don't want to hold both accountable for their shortcomings. That's you digging your heals in. I didn't make this a Book vs Durant thing. You did.

Huh...

I started off quoting this post... by you...

Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

suns had 14 turnovers last night kd had 5 book had 3 oneale had 2 bench these mother don't give a funkers dunn had 0 turnovers - gillespie had 0 turnovers oso had 1 turnover but was also a +2 on the +/- richards had 1 turnover but was a +3 book was a -13 kd was a -12 beal was a -12 if the...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

Saying that Booker needs to be "held accountable" for a stat that he is one of the best in the NBA at his position... is a take that I simply disagree with, especially in comparison to Durant, who is unequivocally terrible in the same category.

 

[Covert Rain]

Huh...

I started off quoting this post... by you...

Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

suns had 14 turnovers last night kd had 5 book had 3 oneale had 2 bench these mother don't give a funkers dunn had 0 turnovers - gillespie had 0 turnovers oso had 1 turnover but was also a +2 on the +/- richards had 1 turnover but was a +3 book was a -13 kd was a -12 beal was a -12 if the...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

Saying that Booker needs to be "held accountable" for a stat that he is one of the best in the NBA at his position... is a take that I simply disagree with, especially in comparison to Durant, who is unequivocally terrible in the same category.

Yes, I named them both of off Birds first post where he pointed out they accounted for most of the teams turnovers but didn't have the status in front of him. I didn't pit then AGAINST each other, I was pointing how how they both contribute and that he was right (providing supporting stats). Saying they both contribute is not the same thing as saying Player X is responsible but Player Y is not.

P.S. They are both 3rd worst at their respective positions in turnover ratio too.

Which Shooting Guard Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Anthony Edwards has the most turnovers by a shooting guard this season with 217 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Which Power Forward Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Jayson Tatum has the most turnovers by a power forward this season with 186 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes, I named them both of off Birds first post where he pointed out they accounted for most of the teams turnovers but didn't have the status in front of him. I didn't pit then AGAINST each other, I was pointing how how they both contribute.

P.S. They are both 3rd worst at their respective positions in turnover ratio too.

Which Shooting Guard Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Anthony Edwards has the most turnovers by a shooting guard this season with 217 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Which Power Forward Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Jayson Tatum has the most turnovers by a power forward this season with 186 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Now try assist to turnover ratio... give it a whirl and see what it spits back.

 

[95pro]

Did you guys forget that we looked like the worst team in the NBA in the 10 games KD missed when Booker and co led us to a sterling 1-9 record?

The mix of players obviously doesn’t work and KD is a major reason why, but this team is an absolute, all-time league bad team without him.

The entire makeup is bad. There no telling what those 10 games looked like with all the lineup shuffling and minutes given. Nothing has been consistent all year except that we have been bad.

 

[Covert Rain]

Now try assist to turnover ratio... give it a whirl and see what it spits back.

Go for it. It doesn't change anything or a single stat that makes either of them look bad. Not one.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That's true too. When Beal has been healthy, he has been a legit member of the Big 3 and on some nights, our best all around player. It's just that we are paying all that money for a guy that will barely play 40 games a season. I love Brad as a player, he just isn't playing enough.

Beal isn't a big anything at this point, other than albatross. It's not just his availability, he's not that great of a player anymore. He's a 15-20M player making 60. Before we acquired him, he was at a near all star level. He's nowhere close to that anymore.

 

[Phrazbit]

Go for it. It doesn't change anything or a single stat that makes either of them look bad. Not one.

Well... I can tell you that one of them is really really good in the stat... and the other is crazy bad... making this equivalency being drawn up seem rather silly.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well... I can tell you that one of them is really really good in the stat... and the other is crazy bad... making this equivalency being drawn up seem rather silly.

Sure if you cherry pick a stat but plenty of the others posted above show them both bad in certain areas. Again, it's not about saying they are 50/50 and splitting hairs. It's about saying they both contribute to areas we are not good at.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sure if you cherry pick a stat but plenty of the others posted above show them both bad in certain areas. Again, it's not about saying they are 50/50 and splitting hairs. It's about saying they both contribute to areas we are not good at.

lol, that is as not cherry picking as possible. It's basically then benchmark for ball handling in the league.

 

[Covert Rain]

lol, that is as not cherry picking as possible. It's basically then benchmark for ball handling in the league.

They are all benchmarks. So, none of the other status count because you say so. LOL.

 

[Phrazbit]

They are all benchmarks. So, none of the other status count because you say so. LOL.

Assist to turnover takes all those stats we've been talking about and lumps them into one convenient number. Kinda like how 3 point percentage is a better measure of shooting than just three pointers made.