Suns @ Bulls 2-24-17

[AzStevenCal]

In a bright note....loved watching the stretch in the 4qtr with LB and Ulis and Williams.

Far too short and it came too late, it should have started in the 3rd quarter. But yes, this team is a lot more fun to watch with Ulis and Williams out there (and Jones, I should add).

 

[sdscard4]

Just glad we actually have young talent and it's fun to watch them. Love watching LB as he's still ballin. And I do say over and over every time I see Watson....'Why is this guy our coach'

 

[pokerface]

Did you catch the McDonough interview after the game? HE'S ALL IN ON THE TANK! He said he's committed to the youth movement...Going to be playing more Len... Williams...Ulis...Jones jr...

He said they have significant interest in Tucker.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just glad we actually have young talent and it's fun to watch them. Love watching LB as he's still ballin. And I do say over and over every time I see Watson....'Why is this guy our coach'

I haven't given up on Watson, he's new and has a ways to go though. I just think he's still a little too much invested in basketball the way it was played during his career. If you want to run like we do you need to keep fresh legs especially if you're asking them to play defense. And despite our results, we're clearly making an effort on D. Hopefully, he'll adapt and learn because it's too our benefit for him to become a good head coach. He connects with the players while still providing discipline.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

If They lose the rest of their games and secure a top 1 or 2 pick Ill be a happy guy. Finally getting a top pick who is not a project will do wonders going forward to building a quality team sooner than later.

 

[hsandhu]

Did you catch the McDonough interview after the game? HE'S ALL IN ON THE TANK! He said he's committed to the youth movement...Going to be playing more Len... Williams...Ulis...Jones jr...

He said they have significant interest in Tucker.

Where was the interview

 

[Mainstreet]

Did you catch the McDonough interview after the game? HE'S ALL IN ON THE TANK! He said he's committed to the youth movement...Going to be playing more Len... Williams...Ulis...Jones jr...

He said they have significant interest in Tucker.

I'm hoping McDonough has relieved the pressure off Watson to win.

In regard to Tucker, I'm not sure the Suns should go back down this road again although it was a nice gesture.

 

[pokerface]

Where was the interview

It was the post game show and he was interviewed by Tom Leander

 

[pokerface]

I'm hoping McDonough has relieved the pressure off Watson to win.

In regard to Tucker, I'm not sure the Suns should go back down this road again although it was a nice gesture.

We can buy and sell him all over again...

Seriously though... If the Suns pull out a massive upgrade this summer they might want him back. I don't care either way.

 

[Mainstreet]

We can buy and sell him all over again...

Yes! This is good stuff.

Seriously though... If the Suns pull out a massive upgrade this summer they might want him back. I don't care either way.

It just seemed Watson wanted to play Tucker more than I would like. I think Warren was always looking over his shoulder.

I guess Tucker will show his worth with the Raptors.

 

[SirStefan32]

We can buy and sell him all over again...

Seriously though... If the Suns pull out a massive upgrade this summer they might want him back. I don't care either way.

That's how I see it too. I think Tucker is a good guy to have in the second unit. My problem was that the Suns overused him. If the Suns pull of some kind of a trade that thins out the bench, I'd love to have PJ back.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sunsational loss! Good job boys. Keep 'em coming!

 

[JustWinBaby]

Really nice game. I want to see more of Jones Jr.

These final games are Alex Len's audition for next year. IMO he really does not have it. He still has not figured out how to score around the bucket and he is usually the biggest guy on the floor, by far. I had high hopes when we drafted him but I really do not want him back next year. I would rather we use his money on Tucker and I am not a Tucker fan.

 

[hsandhu]

Really nice game. I want to see more of Jones Jr.

These final games are Alex Len's audition for next year. IMO he really does not have it. He still has not figured out how to score around the bucket and he is usually the biggest guy on the floor, by far. I had high hopes when we drafted him but I really do not want him back next year. I would rather we use his money on Tucker and I am not a Tucker fan.

Do you only judge performance by points scored? Len's length and rim protection were quite good, shut down several jimmy Butler drives, causing his early struggles.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you only judge performance by points scored? Len's length and rim protection were quite good, shut down several jimmy Butler drives, causing his early struggles.

Until Watson wore down our guards, our defense was pretty good tonight and Len had a lot to do with it. I cringe every time they give him an outside shot but our team defense is much better with Alex than with Chandler. He still falls for all the little tricks though as a primary defender so he still needs a lot of improvement but the potential is there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I know it's the way the league wants it but I hate that call. They should have called the Wade contact earlier but on the shot, he was clean until the follow-through. AFAIC, if the ball is long gone, that kind of contact shouldn't be called. But Wade complaining is a joke, he's made a killing off of that kind of call.

It should be called. If you know you are going to get hit after the shot, it alters the shot. If that isn't called, players would be whacking each other all the time.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Do you only judge performance by points scored? Len's length and rim protection were quite good, shut down several jimmy Butler drives, causing his early struggles.

With players over 500 minutes Chandler ranks 29th and Len Ranks 42nd in the league in PER for the center position only. It appears that the center position is one of our major weaknesses.

As good as you might think Len protects the rim we are at the bottom of the league in defense. While he was stopping Jimmy Butler at the rim the Bulls were scoring 128 points and shooting 46.2% from three.

I have hopes that Bender will bulk up a bit while still being able to guard the perimeter. I think that is the way the league is going and the way we need to go in the future. I just do not see that Len has the skills required for us to be successful going forward. I see him as a role player at best.

If he proves me wrong in the last games of this season I could change my tune. It appears that Watson is going to give him a chance to do just that. That is a very good thing.

 

[sunsfan88]

Do you only judge performance by points scored? Len's length and rim protection were quite good, shut down several jimmy Butler drives, causing his early struggles.

Eh, a 35 old Dwayne Wade that can barely get up threw down a nasty poster dunk on Len.

 

[Ronin]

K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop
NBA's Last 2 Minute Reports rule that Wade indeed fouled Booker on 3-point attempt late in regulation.

 

[AzStevenCal]

K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop
NBA's Last 2 Minute Reports rule that Wade indeed fouled Booker on 3-point attempt late in regulation.

Yeah, that was never in doubt. They've called that foul for 4 or 5 years now and Wade himself has benefitted hundreds of times. But of course that didn't keep him from whining to the ref about it. I just think that once the ball is truly in flight, incidental contact shouldn't be a foul. And until a few years ago, it wasn't.

 

[Hoop Head]

With players over 500 minutes Chandler ranks 29th and Len Ranks 42nd in the league in PER for the center position only. It appears that the center position is one of our major weaknesses.

Is there a stat that is kept for PER for each position? Neither Len or Chandler is a scorer so that hurts their PER some however between the 2 of them we have an average Center on the floor at all times. I know Chandler's PER is low compared to starting Centers but Len's is high compared to backup Centers, making things sort of a wash overall. I would think if they tracked PER for each position then we might be able to learn something about positions of need, not just in the starting lineup but off the bench as well. The Suns would probably be in the middle of the pack, between 12th and 18th overall as far as what they get all game from that position. I don't think Center is a position of weakness so much for us though. We have 2 centers that are very similar in terms of their skill sets and we don't have a Center or Power Forward that can play Center more than 12 feet from the basket offensively. Centers like Len and Chandler still have a place in today's NBA but not for the entire 48 minutes. We need someone who can play Center and shoot from outside and score outside of the key to back up either Len or Chandler. Keeping both moving forward is a mistake though, IMO.

If Len doesn't command a higher salary than Chandler makes now then I'd be more inclined to keep him and move Chandler. Len is still improving while Chandler is regressing, Len will be 24 next year and Chandler will be 35 before the season starts. I think it's a no brainer to keep Len and try and get something of value out of Chandler during the offseason because this is probably our last chance to get value from moving him. If Len goes we'll be back at square 1 looking to replace Chandler in a year but being stuck with him because we don't have anyone else to take over for him right away. Bender may be that guy but I doubt it he'll be ready to fill that role next year. I think you need 1 rim protecting big in the style of Len or Chandler and then another stretch big like a Frank Kaminsky type who can stretch the floor. Len has proven capable of producing on par with Chandler and being 11 years younger than him I'd keep him and seek to replace Chandler with a vet or a young prospect because at least we'll have Len doing as much as Chandler did/does until we can find an upgrade.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Is there a stat that is kept for PER for each position? Neither Len or Chandler is a scorer so that hurts their PER some however between the 2 of them we have an average Center on the floor at all times. I know Chandler's PER is low compared to starting Centers but Len's is high compared to backup Centers, making things sort of a wash overall. I would think if they tracked PER for each position then we might be able to learn something about positions of need, not just in the starting lineup but off the bench as well. The Suns would probably be in the middle of the pack, between 12th and 18th overall as far as what they get all game from that position. I don't think Center is a position of weakness so much for us though. We have 2 centers that are very similar in terms of their skill sets and we don't have a Center or Power Forward that can play Center more than 12 feet from the basket offensively. Centers like Len and Chandler still have a place in today's NBA but not for the entire 48 minutes. We need someone who can play Center and shoot from outside and score outside of the key to back up either Len or Chandler. Keeping both moving forward is a mistake though, IMO.

If Len doesn't command a higher salary than Chandler makes now then I'd be more inclined to keep him and move Chandler. Len is still improving while Chandler is regressing, Len will be 24 next year and Chandler will be 35 before the season starts. I think it's a no brainer to keep Len and try and get something of value out of Chandler during the offseason because this is probably our last chance to get value from moving him. If Len goes we'll be back at square 1 looking to replace Chandler in a year but being stuck with him because we don't have anyone else to take over for him right away. Bender may be that guy but I doubt it he'll be ready to fill that role next year. I think you need 1 rim protecting big in the style of Len or Chandler and then another stretch big like a Frank Kaminsky type who can stretch the floor. Len has proven capable of producing on par with Chandler and being 11 years younger than him I'd keep him and seek to replace Chandler with a vet or a young prospect because at least we'll have Len doing as much as Chandler did/does until we can find an upgrade.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c

Hollinger statistics is where I came up with those numbers. You can view PER's by position or overall.

Quite frankly I made these comments on PER because I do not know any better sites to view for how a player is doing. I am looking for legitimate positives in Len's game. There is a lot of banter both ways but he is really someone we need to make the correct decision on. We cannot afford another mistake.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say and am trying to convince myself that it would be a good thing to extend Alex Len this summer. If there are defensive stats that show that we are a better team with him on the court, I am all ears. The facts are we are either the worst or close to the worst defensive team in the league. This is with what we think are quality or at the very least decent centers. Now the blame for poor defense is put on Booker and Warren. The only two players I have heard that have good defender next to their names are Bledsoe and PJ Tucker and PJ is no longer here.

I expect this discussion to continue until a decision is made on Len's future. It certainly is an important one and this franchise needs to get it right.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Len is a much better rim protector than Chandler but that's not to say he's a good defender. Tyson is nailed to the floor these days and while he rebounds his area reasonably well and can still defend your typical plodder, he's a liability most nights. Although I do wish Alex could duplicate Tyson's approach to offense (dive to the rim, avoid jumpers). Len's defensive numbers might look worse but he's had the misfortune to play a lot of his minutes with Knight who has been abysmal on D.

All said, I'm more pro-Len than most of the posters here and I'm not at all sure we should extend him. Hopefully we'll have a better understanding of his value by the end of the season. The only thing I'm sure of with Len is that I don't want him as a backup.

 

[sunsfan88]

That's how I see it too. I think Tucker is a good guy to have in the second unit. My problem was that the Suns overused him. If the Suns pull of some kind of a trade that thins out the bench, I'd love to have PJ back.

Its because he's a coach's player. There are certain players who may not have the skill or talent but they play so hard that coaches become biased and will use their bias to give the player minutes that the player shouldn't be getting otherwise. Tucker is one of those players.

If Tucker signs back here, the same thing would happen again. Watson would overplay him and ruin his effectiveness. On a contending team like the Raptors, Casey can't give him too many minutes because it would upset the other established starters on the team so he works out well there.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

On Len...Are we absolutely sure he commands a huge salary? I know Mozgov got paid, but I think that is viewed universally as a mistake. With the league moving away from traditional centers, maybe this is finally the year undeserving seven-footers don't get overpaid. It only takes one team, but who would that team be?

No cap space (based on cursory research):
Wizards, Pistons, Grizzlies, Cavs, Blazers, Thunder, Bucks, Hornets, Raptors, Rockets, Warriors

Already invested in a center (in today's NBA, a back-up traditional center is not an asset worth spending big money on):
Bulls, 76ers, Kings, Nets, Nuggets, Clippers, Mavs, Jazz, Magic, Hawks, Pelicans, Heat

So that would leave the Celtics, Lakers, Timberwolves, Spurs, Pacers, and Knicks as our only reasonable competition.

The Celtics seem to be chasing bigger fish.

The Spurs seem far too smart to give Len a giant contract.

The Lakers just signed Mozgov.

The Twolves are going to need cap space for extending their own young players with much higher potential than Len.

The Knicks have Hernangomez cheap and are already paying Noah an obscene amount of money.

So that leaves the Pacers? Maybe they don't like Len that much.

I didn't look that closely into cap room, so I might be mistaken about the teams that do and don't have it. That said, the point remains...It takes another suitor to drive up Len's price.

The Knicks are going to offer him $20 million per year, aren't they?