Suns explore deal for Pau Gasol

[Chris_Sanders]

This coming from the dude who crowed about Beasley's true shooting percentage.

I know this topic actually confuses you, as it has been discussed many times, but the leagues pace through much of the 90s (and when Malone won his MVPs) was actually SLOWER than the current NBA.

After 95, Malone's teams didnt have a pace over 91 again. While Dirk has had only 3 seasons in his career with a pace under 91. And during those years where their team's paces are comparable Malone's numbers dwarf Dirks.

As for the rest of the advanced stats... Malone beats out Dirk in just about everything except true shooting (but Malone has a better effective fg%) and win shares per 48, where Dirk edges him by .004. Now, its worth noting that those numbers include the entire scope of Malone's career and reflect a sharp decline during his final seasons. I would not be at all surprised by the end of Dirk's career his nature decline will have Malone beating him in advanced stats across the board.

And one more thing, it slays me how a dude playing more minutes is somehow used against them in statistical arguments. If the guy had the capacity and talent to play that many minutes and do so effectively, thats a bonus! However, it is worth noting that in this particular debate Malone's per 36 numbers beat out Dirk's anyway.

Also it disgusts me to have to argue FOR Karl Malone, because I really don't like that dude, and I actually like Dirk much more. But the idea that Dirk is "easily" the better player is absolutely laughable.

Well said

 

[JS22]

Gambo isn't wrong when he reports something as factual. He reported the Gortat trade earlier than any other media outlet and reported the Dragic/Brooks trade and of course he earned himself a great reputation by being the first in the nation to report the blockbuster Steve Nash trade while everyone else had absolutely no idea what was going on.

I think if Gambo says we don't have interest in Gasol and haven't contacted them, then we don't have interest in Gasol and haven't contacted them.

Gambo's source is Sarver.

Seems pretty obvious.

 

[slinslin]

This coming from the dude who crowed about Beasley's true shooting percentage.

I know this topic actually confuses you, as it has been discussed many times, but the leagues pace through much of the 90s (and when Malone won his MVPs) was actually SLOWER than the current NBA.

After 95, Malone's teams didnt have a pace over 91 again. While Dirk has had only 3 seasons in his career with a pace under 91. And during those years where their team's paces are comparable Malone's numbers dwarf Dirks.

As for the rest of the advanced stats... Malone beats out Dirk in just about everything except true shooting (but Malone has a better effective fg%) and win shares per 48, where Dirk edges him by .004. Now, its worth noting that those numbers include the entire scope of Malone's career and reflect a sharp decline during his final seasons. I would not be at all surprised by the end of Dirk's career his nature decline will have Malone beating him in advanced stats across the board.

And one more thing, it slays me how a dude playing more minutes is somehow used against them in statistical arguments. If the guy had the capacity and talent to play that many minutes and do so effectively, thats a bonus! However, it is worth noting that in this particular debate Malone's per 36 numbers beat out Dirk's anyway.

Also it disgusts me to have to argue FOR Karl Malone, because I really don't like that dude, and I actually like Dirk much more. But the idea that Dirk is "easily" the better player is absolutely laughable.

Malone's teams average pace 94,07
Nowitzki's teams average pace 91,93

Nice try.

Nowitzki had the higher peak in win shares, doesn't matter if Malone declined in the end, he never reached the peak Nowitzki did. Also Nowitzki has an ORTG of 117 for his career, Malone is only at 113.
Nowitzki had 2 years where he peaked at 123 ORTG, Malone had one year of 120 and a few of 118 barely over Nowitzki's average.

 

[elindholm]

Malone's teams average pace 94,07
Nowitzki's teams average pace 91,93

Nice try.

That's barely a 2% difference, or a difference of 0.5 ppg for players who are scoring ~25.

 

[slinslin]

Still noticeable in raw stats especially coupled with the fact that he also played more minutes and we could probably look up %FG allowed statistics through the eras.

Not to mention in terms of playoff numbers Nowitzki blows Malone out of the water, it is not even worthy of a comparison because the margin is that big.

Career WS/48 in the playoffs
Nowitzki 0.205 (three years where he lead the league in the playoffs at 0.291, 0.287 and .263)
Malone 0.140 (Malone only reached .200 twice in his playoff years)

Career PER in the playoffs
Nowitzki 24.7 ( 5 years between 26 - 29 )
Malone 21.1 (Malone only barely topped Nowitzki's average twice in the playoffs at 25.0 and 25.8)

Career eFG% in the playoffs
Nowitzki 49.3%
Malone 46.3%

Career ORTG in the playoffs
Nowitzki 118
Malone 106

Difference of ORTG-DRTG
Nowitzki +11
Malone +3


While Nowitzki played as well or better than in the regular season come playoff time, Malone got worse.

And playoff stats are part of the equation. Nowitzki will go down as the greater player to every rational person and Malone as a regular season stat-padder but that should be no surprise considering he spent basically his entire career with the Utah Jazz.

 

[Catlover]

Still noticeable in raw stats especially coupled with the fact that he also played more minutes and we could probably look up %FG allowed statistics through the eras.

Not to mention in terms of playoff numbers Nowitzki blows Malone out of the water, it is not even worthy of a comparison because the margin is that big.

Career WS/48 in the playoffs
Nowitzki 0.205 (three years where he lead the league in the playoffs at 0.291, 0.287 and .263)
Malone 0.140 (Malone only reached .200 twice in his playoff years)

Career PER in the playoffs
Nowitzki 24.7 ( 5 years between 26 - 29 )
Malone 21.1 (Malone only barely topped Nowitzki's average twice in the playoffs at 25.0 and 25.8)

Career eFG% in the playoffs
Nowitzki 49.3%
Malone 46.3%

Career ORTG in the playoffs
Nowitzki 118
Malone 106

Difference of ORTG-DRTG
Nowitzki +11
Malone +3


While Nowitzki played as well or better than in the regular season come playoff time, Malone got worse.

And playoff stats are part of the equation. Nowitzki will go down as the greater player to every rational person and Malone as a regular season stat-padder but that should be no surprise considering he spent basically his entire career with the Utah Jazz.

Do we have the right to call you a liar or a fool since you've now called all of us irrational (twice, even)? This is no way to argue. You're on one side and everyone else that has weighed in is on the other side. Rational arguments have been profferred from our side and yet you claim that "every rational person" agrees with you. Again, this is no way to argue a point. Reasonable minds can differ. Whether you're capable of being reasonable is called in to question the moment you make a statement such as this earlier comment "not even a Nowitzki fan but every rational human being can understand that he ranks ahead of Barkley and Malone easily".

 

[Superbone]

Most would choose Barkley and Malone over Nowitzki. The only thing he's got over the other two is recency.

 

[SirStefan32]

Most would choose Barkley and Malone over Nowitzki. The only thing he's got over the other two is recency.

I agree. Among all the PFs that I've seen play, Duncan would be my first choice (if we classify him as a PF), followed by Malone, and Barkley. Then, and only then, would Dirk even be a candidate. I'd have to think about Dirk vs. Garnett.

 

[ozzfloyd]

A guy in Germany pimping a guy from Germany? No bias possible there right?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Because Malone played more minutes at a higher pace, his advanced stats don't dwarf Nowitzki at all, but I know this confuses you since we found out many times in the past that you don't know what advanced stats are.

I know that I actually WATCHED both players in their prime (something you haven't) and don't need to rely on statistics to make my case.

People can twist stats to say whatever they want them to. You're proof positive of that. But then again, you literally have no clue what you're talking about comparing players of different eras as you continue to believe that Magic Johnson wasn't a PG. Honestly, any "rational" person says different.

 

[Phrazbit]

Malone's teams average pace 94,07
Nowitzki's teams average pace 91,93

Nice try.

Nowitzki had the higher peak in win shares, doesn't matter if Malone declined in the end, he never reached the peak Nowitzki did. Also Nowitzki has an ORTG of 117 for his career, Malone is only at 113.
Nowitzki had 2 years where he peaked at 123 ORTG, Malone had one year of 120 and a few of 118 barely over Nowitzki's average.

Unless I am mistaken we are talking about better player overall... not better (marginally) on one end of the court. Malone's offensive stats across the board are either right with Dirk's or superior... and his defensive stats are ALL better than Dirk's. Also, Malone had NINE seasons with win shares over 15, and that does not include a lockout shortened season where he led the league and was on pace for win shares over 18. Dirk meanwhile has had 4 seasons of that quality and they are all from several years ago.

As for your repeatedly debunked pace theory. Again, compare the years where they had similar pace (and there are several), and you find repeated instances of Malone putting up superior numbers to Dirk at a SLOWER pace. And in stats that ignore points and focus on efficiency, Malone is a superior player. And if you want to focus on their peak (as you love to twist arguments into some narrow area), Malone's best PER was 28.9, better than any Dirk season, in 1997 and he registered that with a Utah team that played at a 90 pace, slower than all but a couple of Dirk's teams.

You've proven over and over that you have a minimal grasp of advanced stats and absolutely no grasp on anything NBA related prior to 2000, so I am not surprised that you are blindly thumping for Germany's greatest player, but this is a laughable debate. You can sit here and claim that no "rational" person would claim Malone is better, yet this is the ONLY place where I have seen Dirk even compared to him.

 

[Mainstreet]

I've watched Malone and Nowitzki play live in their prime as well. Although I really like Nowitzki as a player, Malone was definitely the better player because of his toughness and inside game... and I did not like Malone. Some things you have to see in person as stats does not always tell the whole story.

 

[TucsonDevil]

I am late to this discussion, but the on the eye test, it's not even close. Malone is far superior to Dirk. I haven't seen a big man move so fast in my life - until I now watch Lebron. How quickly we forget how physically amazing Karl was in his time.

Ask Elliott Perry, Steve Nash, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas and even Michael Jordan how intimidating Karl Malone's elbows were. Has anyone been afraid to challenge Dirk down low?

 

[BC867]

Then you're missing a large part of what's causing the Suns to win this year. Frye has the 13th highest */- in the league.

Do you think that might be more a reflection of Dragic's hot starts than Frye's presence?

Or perhaps that Frye is a one-trick pony. If he starts the game hitting 3's, he stays in. If not, Kieff replaces him.

Either way, Frye is not making the 13th best contribution to his team either at Power Forward or Center. He needs to product more than stats to help this team.

 

[Catlover]

Do you think that might be more a reflection of Dragic's hot starts than Frye's presence?

Or perhaps that Frye is a one-trick pony. If he starts the game hitting 3's, he stays in. If not, Kieff replaces him.

Either way, Frye is not making the 13th best contribution to his team either at Power Forward or Center. He needs to product more than stats to help this team.

How is that even possible? Frye plays with and without Dragic, in fact he's out there with the second group probably more than any other starter (my opinion, no numbers to back that up). Anyway, if it was just that he was out there with Dragic early I would remind you that we frequently get off to bad starts and if it were as you suggest, why isn't this benefit passed to the other starters. Tucker's +/- for example is way, way below that of Channing's.

I believe it's what many of us have said time and again. It's not because Frye is such a great player but the threat of him shooting from deep forces other teams to play a different style than they like and our guys benefit from it. When Frye starts off poorly they usually play him like any other big guy and the rest of the team then struggles to get the same looks. Percentages go down across the board because Frye is not bringing the big guy beyond his comfort level and no one else is being forced to sag off their guy to provide occasional help.

 

[95pro]

Completely different players were dirk and Malone. Malone has all the stats on his side. But I know dirk had one year where he almost unstoppable and that was his championship year.

Malone had Stockton feeding him a lot on the pick n roll. He also just ran a lot of people over.
Dirk creates his own shots and had further range.


Different times and different players. I never liked Malone personally but though dirk was a likable guy.

 

[Catlover]

Completely different players were dirk and Malone. Malone has all the stats on his side. But I know dirk had one year where he almost unstoppable and that was his championship year.

Malone had Stockton feeding him a lot on the pick n roll. He also just ran a lot of people over.
Dirk creates his own shots and had further range.


Different times and different players. I never liked Malone personally but though dirk was a likable guy.

I'd find it a lot easier to cheer for Dirk than I would Karl but Malone was a much better player. Karl is in the top 10 of all time, Dirk is more like top 25. Dirk is much more likable and while he's not soft, he never played dirty like Malone did so often. Nowitzki is one of my favorite non-Suns players and he gives you everything he has but he's not the equal of Karl especially on the defensive end.

 

[slinslin]

Karl is in the top 10 of all time.

uh no, he is not and that is definitely not even argueable.

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Lebron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving


Kevin Garnett and Nowitzki as well

 

[slinslin]

A guy in Germany pimping a guy from Germany? No bias possible there right?

Americans pimping a guy who has won nothing, worse peak performance and a career of underperforming in the playoffs when it mattered. (Nowitzki literally ****s on Malone when it comes to playoff performances)

No bias possible there right?

Americans accusing others of patriotism or national bias... that's rich.

 

[slinslin]

I agree. Among all the PFs that I've seen play, Duncan would be my first choice (if we classify him as a PF), followed by Malone, and Barkley. Then, and only then, would Dirk even be a candidate. I'd have to think about Dirk vs. Garnett.

Barkley over Garnett or Dirk is REALLY funny and I am a Barkley fan (as a player, as an analyst he is absolutely worthless).

 

[Catlover]

uh no, he is not and that is definitely not even argueable.

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Lebron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving


Kevin Garnett and Nowitzki as well

Not a bad list but I'd put Karl at the bottom of that group along with Julius Erving and Shaq. Shaq could have been the greatest ever but never played quite to his potential and Julius Erving was a little overrated. He was a great offensive player but it's a two way game. I wouldn't tell someone they were wrong if they had Karl below those two but only an arrogant fool would insist it's not arguable.

 

[Chaplin]

Americans pimping a guy who has won nothing, worse peak performance and a career of underperforming in the playoffs when it mattered. (Nowitzki literally ****s on Malone when it comes to playoff performances)

No bias possible there right?

Americans accusing others of patriotism or national bias... that's rich.

Please. You are the most nationally biased person on this entire board. There's not even a shred of an argument there.

 

[Superbone]

uh no, he is not and that is definitely not even argueable.

It's always arguable. You've proven that.

 

[Neo]

(Nowitzki literally ****s on Malone when it comes to playoff performances)

Literally? I always thought Germans were weird, but that is a bit excessive. I would have thought he might do it figuratively. Eeeeeeeew!

 

[elindholm]

Literally? I always thought Germans were weird, but that is a bit excessive. I would have thought he might do it figuratively. Eeeeeeeew!

Must ... resist ... Rule 34 ... joke ...