Suns fire McD

Phrazbit

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If you look at from the other side:


A PG from Kentucky, on an NBA team who likes drafting Kentucky players, seems like you would go up and get him OVER Bridges. Unless Sarver thought Uliss was an indication of KY PGs? Which would be very ignorant. You would think Booker would be VERY happy to get a KY running mate. I can see where you can't get that pick, or won't give up the pieces to get that pick. Just seems odd looking at it from reverse, too.

I don't think there is any smoke to the "loves Kentucky players" stuff other than that Kentucky routinely has several of the highest regarded players. In a given year they have 3 or 4 guys go in the first round.
 

sunsfan88

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One thing I have to say in support of McD, is if he knew getting a PG would save his job, he could have just gone out and did a bad deal just to save his job. He obviously did not do that. Maybe Sarver had final say all along on a PG deal, and McD's hands were tied in this regard.
Owners have to sign off on all deals no matter how little involved they are. A GM can't make a deal without letting the owner know about it because the owner is the one who has to make the trade call with the commissioner of the league.
 

Town Drunk

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Owners have to sign off on all deals no matter how little involved they are. A GM can't make a deal without letting the owner know about it because the owner is the one who has to make the trade call with the commissioner of the league.

That’s not accurate. The owner doesn’t have to make the trade call with the league.
 

sunsfan88

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That’s not accurate. The owner doesn’t have to make the trade call with the league.
Might be wrong on that but I know they have to be aware of it before the deal is made.

I just read something few days ago about how the Butler/Heat trade was very close as Glen Taylor and Micky Arison, who was away on vacation, was informed of the deal for his approval as that along with medical information being shared were the last steps of a trade being finalized.
 

JCSunsfan

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One thing I have to say in support of McD, is if he knew getting a PG would save his job, he could have just gone out and did a bad deal just to save his job. He obviously did not do that. Maybe Sarver had final say all along on a PG deal, and McD's hands were tied in this regard.
Not having a point guard cannot be the reason. That would have been an easy enough fix. There must be a disagreement about a FUTURE issue--future picks, what to do with Bender, who is tradable and who should be kept, free agency--something like that.

I liked McD and hoped he would stay around a while. I admit it. Most here seem to think it was good that he was fire, but it was bad too because of Sarver being an intrusive owner.

James Jones says that the players love having him around, and really like him as a person. I do not remember hearing many player saying they liked McD, but plenty on their way out that did not like him.

So while I am not thrilled, I don't think the sky is falling. I am not sure how James Jones would make a good GM. He has no experience whatsoever.
 
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Might be wrong on that but I know they have to be aware of it before the deal is made.

I just read something few days ago about how the Butler/Heat trade was very close as Glen Taylor and Micky Arison, who was away on vacation, was informed of the deal for his approval as that along with medical information being shared were the last steps of a trade being finalized.

That varies by team. With the Wolves there were issues because Thibs and their front office were telling people that Butler wasn't on the trade block. Glen Taylor then came out and said that if anyone hears differently to contact him directly. Some GM's have more power and the trust of the owner(s) so they can make deals without a lot of hassle. That's why you never hear about some owners, because they aren't involved really. They'll set a budget for their GM and tell them to go do whatever. Like with Toronto for example, who knows who their owner is? Bryan Colangelo was their GM and now they have Masai Ujiri running the show. Of course with the amount of money involved, some owners want to know about things because max money is no joke and some trades can bring back a ton of guaranteed money that they'll be on the hook for. I can't imagine many owners amassed their fortunes by letting someone else tie up $100+ of their money, even if they are bringing a lot of money in.
 

Phrazbit

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I suspect most functional organizations have GMs that are free to do what they please but even the GMs with the most liberty probably drop their owner a line before swinging some massive, franchise altering deal. Like a max contract or a trading involving all-stars.

If Sarver was actually poking his way around the draft and preventing trades, then it's a serious problem.

I actually like Bridges more than Shai, but if McD got canned for not having a point guard and Sarver previously prevented him for trading for one, that is some bull.
 

Yuma

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Might be wrong on that but I know they have to be aware of it before the deal is made.

I just read something few days ago about how the Butler/Heat trade was very close as Glen Taylor and Micky Arison, who was away on vacation, was informed of the deal for his approval as that along with medical information being shared were the last steps of a trade being finalized.
Obviously the owner writes the checks, so to speak, so even if there is no league owner requirement, I can imagine many owners want to be involved with how much contracts cost, etc.
 

JCSunsfan

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I suspect most functional organizations have GMs that are free to do what they please but even the GMs with the most liberty probably drop their owner a line before swinging some massive, franchise altering deal. Like a max contract or a trading involving all-stars.

If Sarver was actually poking his way around the draft and preventing trades, then it's a serious problem.

I actually like Bridges more than Shai, but if McD got canned for not having a point guard and Sarver previously prevented him for trading for one, that is some bull.
Sarver: why don’t we have a pg yet?

McD: I would have one by now but you wanted a sf instead. Listen. You need to let me do my job or fire me.

Sarver: ok. You’ve got your wish.
 

95pro

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Sarver: why don’t we have a pg yet?

McD: I would have one by now but you wanted a sf instead. Listen. You need to let me do my job or fire me.

Sarver: ok. You’ve got your wish.
I can totally see neither one of them backing down
 

slinslin

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This whole argument is pointless

Even if true we don't know how much they had to give up to trade up for Shai.

Lets remember that we were not able to trade up to 10 until Zhaire Smith actually fell to our pick.

Whoever could have picked SGA for us might have asked for a lot more than what we gave up for Bridges.


Anyway I can't be bothered by the Sarver bashing articles anymore. Bring some actual hard evidence and real sources on the meddling or ****. To me all that stuff is just rehashing old storylines, produce cheap stories with no effort that nobody will challenge anyway.
 

slinslin

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So Gambo reported in the first hour of his show that other teams have told him that Ryan was trying to trade up for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, but he was "overruled".

The overruled report doesn't fit the draft timeline. Shai was already picked at #11 after the sixers rebuked our initial trade attempt at #10. It wasn't until Philly saw that Zhaire Smith was available at #16 did they make #10/Bridges available. The Clips had already moved up and secured Shai. There was no overuling possible.

Both Philly and Phoenix have made statements supporting this timeframe.

You are wrong,

how do you know they did not have the option to trade up for #11 themselves?

Surely they had discussions with a lot of teams from 8-13 since we knew they tried to trade up.

Also this Gambo statement tells us nothing, maybe we could have traded up to 8,9,11 or whatever but it would have cost Josh Jackson. Who knows what was overruled and how it was overruled.
 

slinslin

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As for the meddling, it seems totally overblown to me. No ex-player ever said anything bad about Sarver, nor can I remember coaches talking negatively about him.
On the contrary a lof of former Suns players were or still are close with Sarver - Nash, Amare, Dudley, Tucker, Dragic..

Nash and Amare both did business with Sarver even.

As far as I am concerned he has the right to ultimately reject a GM decision. If I had the money and bought the Suns I would have told my staff "no thx" if they had suggested drafting Dragan Bender to me.

Owners having the final say on decisions is normal in the NBA.
 

Chaplin

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I've had a couple days to process this, but it is unusual that I haven't had a chance to post within the first 30 pages of this thread.

First of all, I am happy that Ryan is gone. He had some hits, and he had some misses, but he was NEVER going to be the guy to take us to the promised land. Someone on the radio said that giving James Jones this trial run for this season may tell us whether he's going to be a good GM or not. I can't help but notice the parallels between this situation and the way Earl Watson was hired as HC. The only difference I can see is that Jones has had a full year in the organization in an "official" front office role, which is more than you can say for Watson up until his interim tag.

As for this offseason, there is some good and there is some bad. The bad really is the trading. I like Mikal Bridges, and I've been on record saying that the Miami pick wasn't as golden an asset as others have said, but we turned Zhaire Smith, the Miami pick, Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss into Bridges, Ryan Anderson and DeAnthony Melton. Oh, and the Bridges pick was actually the Laker pick we had given up when we acquired Knight in the first place. The irony is not lost, and to me, that is a huge "x" on Ryan's record.

But I think mostly this is about where we are on the PG front. Which is, nowhere. We can't know what's happened behind the scenes, but the fact that we don't have a point guard yet is a problem. I'm also speculating, that when Sarver approved the Knight/Chriss trade, he approved it on the caveat that Ryan would soon after acquire a point guard. That obviously has not happened, and Sarver was probably already on the fence about the front office to begin with, so there's your tipping point.

A lot has been thrown at the feet of Sarver, and yes, he is definitely not our favorite person, but this was the right move for this team. Ayton and Booker aside, our scouting has been atrocious, which is supposed to be Ryan's specialty. So firing Ryan and the head scout was the right play.

A lot has also been made about the timing. A talking head on ESPN, I don't know who, made an interesting point about the timing. Hiring a GM before the draft is dicey because there is a very small window of time for whoever the new GM is to research the team enough to have good input about draft picks and even trades later in the summer. I don't know if that's a GOOD point, but it's something to think about.

And then we come to Igor. Many have been complaining about WHY would you let a GM you're going to fire hire a new coach, draft four guys, sign a free agent and make trades and THEN fire him? Well, regardless who the GM is, Igor was the right hire, IMO. He was IMO the best available coach at the time, and I have no regrets about that. Drafting Ayton was a no-brainer, and it's a good possibility that both Bridges and Okobo will work out. We got Bridges, who I think is a good player and could become Trevor Ariza sooner rather than later. The only "not great" move that I felt Ryan has made this summer was not picking up a starting-caliber point guard. Everything else I thought was fine, and in fact, last week I would have given us a B+, if not an A, for this summer's moves.

So it all boils down to the moves that Ryan DIDN'T make this offseason and his blunders of offseason's past. Justified? Yes. Bad timing? Probably.

But for the best IMO, so I'm not going to rake Sarver over the coals for this one.
 

Raindog

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Evaluating this really comes down to what we do from hereon, in the near future. If we end up acquiring a credible PG without giving up an arm and a leg, I think most people will give replacing McD a "thumbs up."

If we make some foolish move and give up real assets for a stopgap solution, I think people will be less enchanted with Sarver's "meddling," whatever else you might have thought of McD.

I expect what will end up happening is somewhere in the middle - we end up not making a deal, or we make an "okay" deal for an "okay" solution to the problem, but not really moving the needle all that much... either of which I can live with, as I still think the future is bright with Ayton and Booker.
 

Mainstreet

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Perhaps the McDonough firing is not complicated at all. The Suns entered the 2017-18 season with point guard woes as Bledsoe didn't want to be here.

The problem wasn't fixed.

Now the Suns are entering the 2018-19 with the same problem... a problem McDonough failed to fix. He certainly had plenty of time to solve the problem and didn't. From this perspective, the firing is perfectly understandable.
 

SirStefan32

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Well, I'll be damned! I can literally say that I qagree 100% with two of your posts, Slin, and 95% on the third one.
You are spot-on!

This whole argument is pointless

Even if true we don't know how much they had to give up to trade up for Shai.

Lets remember that we were not able to trade up to 10 until Zhaire Smith actually fell to our pick.

Whoever could have picked SGA for us might have asked for a lot more than what we gave up for Bridges.


Anyway I can't be bothered by the Sarver bashing articles anymore. Bring some actual hard evidence and real sources on the meddling or ****. To me all that stuff is just rehashing old storylines, produce cheap stories with no effort that nobody will challenge anyway.

You are wrong,

how do you know they did not have the option to trade up for #11 themselves?

Surely they had discussions with a lot of teams from 8-13 since we knew they tried to trade up.

Also this Gambo statement tells us nothing, maybe we could have traded up to 8,9,11 or whatever but it would have cost Josh Jackson. Who knows what was overruled and how it was overruled.

As for the meddling, it seems totally overblown to me. No ex-player ever said anything bad about Sarver, nor can I remember coaches talking negatively about him.
On the contrary a lof of former Suns players were or still are close with Sarver - Nash, Amare, Dudley, Tucker, Dragic..

Nash and Amare both did business with Sarver even.

As far as I am concerned he has the right to ultimately reject a GM decision. If I had the money and bought the Suns I would have told my staff "no thx" if they had suggested drafting Dragan Bender to me.

Owners having the final say on decisions is normal in the NBA.
 

JCSunsfan

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Well, I'll be damned! I can literally say that I qagree 100% with two of your posts, Slin, and 95% on the third one.
You are spot-on!
Yep. Its not the players that don't like Sarver, its the GM's and mostly GM's around the league. Its the front office personnel. McD does not seem to have helped that any.
 

AzStevenCal

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Yep. Its not the players that don't like Sarver, its the GM's and mostly GM's around the league. Its the front office personnel. McD does not seem to have helped that any.

Really, which GM's are you talking about? Not that every front office was represented but I certainly didn't see any hint of conflict with the other GM's on the Open Court Executives edition on NBA TV the other day. I would say it's mostly Amin and everyone he has had regular contact with him (including Woj) that are spreading or starting most of the anti-Sarver stories. That doesn't make any of them untrue but it does muddy the waters a bit.
 

Superbone

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The timing is not strange or even matters if Sarver was grooming James Jones to be the new GM all along.
 

95pro

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Really, which GM's are you talking about? Not that every front office was represented but I certainly didn't see any hint of conflict with the other GM's on the Open Court Executives edition on NBA TV the other day. I would say it's mostly Amin and everyone he has had regular contact with him (including Woj) that are spreading or starting most of the anti-Sarver stories. That doesn't make any of them untrue but it does muddy the waters a bit.


Its pretty transparent that Amin is still sour, mostly salty.
 

Chris_Sanders

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I called that ownership and management were not aligned back during the draft process when Sarver was flying out repeatedly to meet with Doncic and his handlers without Suns management. Of course the same people saying "This is just overblown media" were saying the same thing then as well.

However, that behavior EXACTLY matches what has been reported by a half dozen sources now that Sarver meets with agents without his management team.

I am certain there was a division between Ayton and Doncic internally. Based on words and actions it seems like McDonough wanted Ayton and Sarver wanted Doncic.

Wanting Doncic is only further proven by forcing a trade for another wing in Bridges.


The level of roasting Sarver is getting right now locally is being vetted out on multiple levels and multiple sources.

Cheese has it right that it is possible that we have enough talent to overcome this level of organizational incompetence but it isn't likely.
 

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https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...er-sarver-nba-phoenix-basketball-devin-booker

“But from people who have worked for the Suns, and talking to some of these coaches, Robert wants to make all of the decisions. He won’t give control to the people who work for him. And the reputation of him, plain and simple. He hires them but he won’t let them do their jobs. That’s his reputation, and I’ve got to take their word for it.

Multiple sources telling this to Barkley.

Multiple executives reporting to Wojanowski

There is so much smoke the whole damn arena is on fire.

5 GMs 7 Coaches. 0 Playoffs. 1 constant.

But duh media is blowing dis up like dey always doo
 

Cheesebeef

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https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...er-sarver-nba-phoenix-basketball-devin-booker



Multiple sources telling this to Barkley.

Multiple executives reporting to Wojanowski

There is so much smoke the whole damn arena is on fire.

5 GMs 7 Coaches. 0 Playoffs. 1 constant.

But duh media is blowing dis up like dey always doo

I know... it's just that the media HATES the... Phoenix Suns... for some reason? The idea that the national media (and local media) have some kind of vendetta against the Suns and that Sarver isn't really that bad continues to boggle the mind.
 

Mainstreet

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The article above is from April 27th, 2018 for context.
 

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