Suns @ Heat

[AzStevenCal]

If you can't think beyond your own experience when you become a Coach.

Remember that Jeff came up as a Point Guard who moved to the "2" rather than vice versa. Just as he did with Dragic. Then, just as he did with Bledsoe, bumping Dragic to Forward.

Tunnel vision.

I seem to remember Jeff playing shooting guard in college too, along with some time at point guard.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

If you can't think beyond your own experience when you become a Coach.

Remember that Jeff came up as a Point Guard who moved to the "2" rather than vice versa. Just as he did with Dragic. Then, just as he did with Bledsoe, bumping Dragic to Forward.

Tunnel vision.

Meanwhile under Hornacek's "tunnel vision", both Morrii's skills have developed beyond what many thought they could, Plumlee went from looking like a toss in scrub to a serviceable big man, Frye went from looking like his career was over to getting a big fat free agent deal, Len's development has been phenomenal...

I think you're the one incapable of looking at anything outside of a specific narrative.

 

[Covert Rain]

Meanwhile under Hornacek's "tunnel vision", both Morrii's skills have developed beyond what many thought they could, Plumlee went from looking like a toss in scrub to a serviceable big man, Frye went from looking like his career was over to getting a big fat free agent deal, Len's development has been phenomenal...

I think you're the one incapable of looking at anything outside of a specific narrative.

In all fairness part of coaching is winning and he is slightly above .500 in two seasons. The narrative certainly isn't he is a good coach beyond getting something out of his players. The jury is still out in only 2 seasons and we still don't know what he could do if he had a legit star vet or two to play along with these guys.

 

[mojorizen7]

And West's was as a foul machine, while working a side job as a stockbroker.

I was a big fan of Mark West in his prime. He always had KJ's back. His expression or emotion never changed on the court. Whenever he scored or made his free throws it was reason to celebrate.

He never went halfway when giving a hard foul either, didn't matter who it was. He'd just prevent the basket and quietly go about his business after taking your head off in the lane...yet no one ever F'd with him. Lol.

It's too bad he got whistled far too often. He deserved better treatment by the refs.

Finished his career with(get this...) 3,136 personal fouls.

 

[Phrazbit]

In all fairness part of coaching is winning and he is slightly above .500 in two seasons. The narrative certainly isn't he is a good coach beyond getting something out of his players. The jury is still out in only 2 seasons and we still don't know what he could do if he had a legit star vet or two to play along with these guys.

Exactly, he is above .500 with a roster that was almost universally expected to win less than 20 games last year.

I think it says a lot that, outside of some circles of disgruntled Suns fans, Hornacek is highly respected around the league. You read articles about the team, you listen into opposing broadcasts and quotes from opposing coaches like Popovich, its nothing but glowing reviews for Hornacek.

I think its a flawed roster, with almost no big man depth, no reliable outside shooting, poor rebounding and several defensive doormats and a couple seriously difficult personalities to juggle.

Who is to blame for the flawed roster? Getting IT certainly didn't work out but on the balance McDonough's moves have been really good IMO. Its a flawed roster because its a work in progress from a team that was truly in shambles back in 2013.

As far as perception goes, the worst thing this team has done was crushing expectations last season. If they'd won 20 games last year and this season had this same group on pace to win 30 I expect that many of the harshest critiques on here would be utterly thrilled with the "progress".

Back in 2013 I felt this team was years... and years from being relevant again. That season was, probably outside of the cocaine scandal, the lowest point in franchise history. Back then the board was not squabbling like this because we were basically united in our depression.

A year and a half later the team is much younger, in a better position financially and worlds better on the court, but people are angry because after taking 10 steps forward last season they've taken 1 or 2 steps back this year. I'm not too worried.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly, he is above .500 with a roster that was almost universally expected to win less than 20 games last year.

I think it says a lot that, outside of some circles of disgruntled Suns fans, Hornacek is highly respected around the league. You read articles about the team, you listen into opposing broadcasts and quotes from opposing coaches like Popovich, its nothing but glowing reviews for Hornacek.

I think its a flawed roster, with almost no big man depth, no reliable outside shooting, poor rebounding and several defensive doormats and a couple seriously difficult personalities to juggle.

Who is to blame for the flawed roster? Getting IT certainly didn't work out but on the balance McDonough's moves have been really good IMO. Its a flawed roster because its a work in progress from a team that was truly in shambles back in 2013.

As far as perception goes, the worst thing this team has done was crushing expectations last season. If they'd won 20 games last year and this season had this same group on pace to win 30 I expect that many of the harshest critiques on here would be utterly thrilled with the "progress".

Back in 2013 I felt this team was years... and years from being relevant again. That season was, probably outside of the cocaine scandal, the lowest point in franchise history. Back then the board was not squabbling like this because we were basically united in our depression.

A year and a half later the team is much younger, in a better position financially and worlds better on the court, but people are angry because after taking 10 steps forward last season they've taken 1 or 2 steps back this year. I'm not too worried.

Nice post. Agree completely although I think we might have taken closer to 3 steps backwards if the Knight situation doesn't play out well for us. Regardless, like you, I'm not worried.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

How can people keep claiming that getting IT did not work out?

1. He was probably the best FA left.
2. He was signed to a bargain contract.
3. When we moved him we got an expiring plus a first round pick in return. So we actually increased the value of our team opposed to not signing It.
4. When he played for us he was the leading candidate for 6th man of the year

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm saying for the design of the team it didn't work out. IT, in terms of talent, was not a bust. It was not a disaster of a signing by any means, but when you dump a guy a few months into a 3 year contract IMO its safe to say the partnership didn't go as intended. Salvaging a pick from the situation was nice.

 

[Errntknght]

Meanwhile under Hornacek's "tunnel vision", both Morrii's skills have developed beyond what many thought they could, Plumlee went from looking like a toss in scrub to a serviceable big man, Frye went from looking like his career was over to getting a big fat free agent deal, Len's development has been phenomenal...

The Morris's did develop but then they regressed. Markieff was attacking the basket a fair amount last year but much less this year. I think Jeff could help that by having more plays designed with that in mind but he seems to have no inclination to enrich the offense. Marcus was showing signs of being a fair perimeter defender last year and that has evaporated this year. Miles good play came and went even faster than those two. If you're going to give Horny credit for their improvement then you need give him just as much credit for their regression.

Frye is a similar story - yes he was an important cog in our lineup last year despite his shortcomings and he he did get a fat contract but he is not living up to it - and his team is not happy with his play.

What I think happened was we had a fortuitous combination of players in the way they fit together last year and they developed very good chemistry. Jeff obviously didn't get in the way of it but whats happened this year convinces me he did not make it happen either. On top of everything else the Morris's have gotten the whole cadre of referees disliking their team with all their ill tempered behavior.

Len's story is different... I can see why you say his development has been phenomenal because you couldn't find enough bad things to say about him last year. I disagreed with you then and from my perspective, with playing time, he developed quite like I expected he would. I think he has a long way to go, but he's progressing pretty well.

 

[BC867]

Meanwhile under Hornacek's "tunnel vision", both Morrii's skills have developed beyond what many thought they could, Plumlee went from looking like a toss in scrub to a serviceable big man, Frye went from looking like his career was over to getting a big fat free agent deal, Len's development has been phenomenal...

I think you're the one incapable of looking at anything outside of a specific narrative.

The Morrii's are undisciplined, inconsistent public relations nightmares whom most of us aren't counting on long term.

Plumlee is gone.

Frye is gone.

If these are positive examples of Jeff's leadership, they aren't very convincing. I had high hopes for him, but he has proven to be a weak leader.

Especially the way he complains to the Press about disappointment in his players.

And, yes, Len's development has been steady, but also disappointing because of his ongoing foul trouble.

 

[95pro]

The Morrii's are undisciplined, inconsistent public relations nightmares whom most of us aren't counting on long term.

Plumlee is gone.

Frye is gone.

If these are positive examples of Jeff's leadership, they aren't very convincing. I had high hopes for him, but he has proven to be a weak leader.

Especially the way he complains to the Press about disappointment in his players.

And, yes, Len's development has been steady, but also disappointing because of his ongoing foul trouble.

Lately the refs have been giving him ticky tacky fouls

 

[Chaplin]

The Morrii's are undisciplined, inconsistent public relations nightmares whom most of us aren't counting on long term.

Plumlee is gone.

Frye is gone.

If these are positive examples of Jeff's leadership, they aren't very convincing. I had high hopes for him, but he has proven to be a weak leader.

Especially the way he complains to the Press about disappointment in his players.

And, yes, Len's development has been steady, but also disappointing because of his ongoing foul trouble.

You certainly can't use this as proof that Hornacek is a bad coach. Especially Plumlee. We actually got something back for him. He was a throw-in when we acquired him and we got rid of him because he had VALUE. That value was gained last year. That is a fact.

 

[Covert Rain]

You certainly can't use this as proof that Hornacek is a bad coach. Especially Plumlee. We actually got something back for him. He was a throw-in when we acquired him and we got rid of him because he had VALUE. That value was gained last year. That is a fact.

Agreed. Hornacek has been given a task IMO with his hands tied behind his back. This stupid duo PG strategy, major turnover on the roster and that all in just two seasons.

I don't think you can call him a bad coach when this FO keeps getting in the way of him coaching IMO.

 

[elindholm]

Wait, it's the mark of a bad coach if a mediocre role player gets traded away? Huh? How do you come up with this stuff?

 

[BC867]

Wait, it's the mark of a bad coach if a mediocre role player gets traded away? Huh? How do you come up with this stuff?

OK, Jeff Hornacek is the perfect Head Coach for this team. His style fits the Guard-heavy roster.

Unfortunately, the Guard-heavy roster does not fit the NBA.

When it goes, he needs to go.

 

[Phrazbit]

So... a winning record, what you fervently believe is a very flawed roster, is enough to say that if we bring in a more balance team we should fire him.

Makes total sense.

 

[Covert Rain]

So... a winning record, what you fervently believe is a very flawed roster, is enough to say that if we bring in a more balance team we should fire him.

Makes total sense.

One game over .500 is a winning record so I am not sure that furthers the argument one bit. I don't think anybody considers that a "winning coach" in terms of success. However, the rest I agree with. I would like to see what he can do with a balanced roster of vets and young guys.

P.S. I am not sure we have really seen JH coach the way he wants. I think he is dealing with the hand dealt to him by management. I seriously doubt if given a choice he would prefer a 2 guard system over a traditional.

 

[Mainstreet]

One game over .500 is a winning record so I am not sure that furthers the argument one bit. I don't think anybody considers that a "winning coach" in terms of success. However, the rest I agree with. I would like to see what he can do with a balanced roster of vets and young guys.

P.S. I am not sure we have really seen JH coach the way he wants. I think he is dealing with the hand dealt to him by management. I seriously doubt if given a choice he would prefer a 2 guard system over a traditional.

I've wondered this myself, if McDonough and Hornacek were on the same page in signing Brandon Knight. It's hard to believe Hornacek lives in a coaching vacuum with no input on player personnel. As I recall, they started out working hand-in-hand. It's hard for me to believe Hornacek did not give his blessing on signing Knight.

 

[SirStefan32]

I've wondered this myself, if McDonough and Hornacek were on the same page in signing Brandon Knight. It's hard to believe Hornacek lives in a coaching vacuum with no input on player personnel. As I recall, they started out working hand-in-hand. It's hard for me to believe Hornacek did not give his blessing on signing Knight.

I am sure Hornacek had some input, but I am concerned that he talked about him and KJ being like Dragic and Bledsoe (I suppose now it's Knight and Bledsoe), and I cannot believe that he doesn't see the difference between the two back courts. Yes, you can play two point guards if they can both actually play point and both of them are good shooters (or at least one of them is a great shooter.)

There's plenty of blame to go around, and it's amazing to me that Hornacek gets most of the blame while the fans give McD a pass.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am sure Hornacek had some input, but I am concerned that he talked about him and KJ being like Dragic and Bledsoe (I suppose now it's Knight and Bledsoe), and I cannot believe that he doesn't see the difference between the two back courts. Yes, you can play two point guards if they can both actually play point and both of them are good shooters (or at least one of them is a great shooter.)

There's plenty of blame to go around, and it's amazing to me that Hornacek gets most of the blame while the fans give McD a pass.

I'm certainly not giving McDonough a free pass as there are a few moves he has made that I question and trading Goran was not one of them. However Hornacek has his hands in the pudding as well. If not, this would even be more worrisome.

As a side note. I always thought of Hornacek the player was a SG who had excellent passing skills. As I recall, there wasn't this banter about which position he plays... whether he is a SG or a PG. He could play both positions well but he was primarily a SG.

 

[Covert Rain]

I've wondered this myself, if McDonough and Hornacek were on the same page in signing Brandon Knight. It's hard to believe Hornacek lives in a coaching vacuum with no input on player personnel. As I recall, they started out working hand-in-hand. It's hard for me to believe Hornacek did not give his blessing on signing Knight.

I am sure if he could have anybody in the league it might have gone differently. Given the choices of trade partners, the available players...I am sure it limited who was available. Out of who was available I wonder how many young impact players there actually were?

Plus, if this really is a trial period to see who our future PG is, that makes even more sense with the longer term strategy at play. We will go with this 2 guard system to see who is our future PG and worry about the rest later. I simply can't see someone as respected as JH buy into this 2 PG guard crap with the long term goal of winning a title.

 

[BC867]

So... a winning record, what you fervently believe is a very flawed roster, is enough to say that if we bring in a more balance team we should fire him.

Makes total sense.

It makes sense if you have come to believe, as I have, that Jeff has shown lack of leadership ability.

Complaining to the Press that his players don't do this and don't do that is a weak tactic. He is not a color commentator. He is supposed to be running the show.

Just because a person is chosen as Head Coach doesn't mean he has proven himself to be one.

I admired Horny as a player, but he is too nice a guy to be in charge. We are watching it happen.

This evaluation makes perfect sense.

 

[sunsfan88]

I've wondered this myself, if McDonough and Hornacek were on the same page in signing Brandon Knight. It's hard to believe Hornacek lives in a coaching vacuum with no input on player personnel. As I recall, they started out working hand-in-hand. It's hard for me to believe Hornacek did not give his blessing on signing Knight.

I remember reading an article last year that Hornacek is the one who pitched the "dual PG" lineup to McD in job interviews and used the Hornacek-KJ example. McD was immediately sold on the idea and loved it.

 

[sunsfan88]

I am sure if he could have anybody in the league it might have gone differently. Given the choices of trade partners, the available players...I am sure it limited who was available. Out of who was available I wonder how many young impact players there actually were?

Plus, if this really is a trial period to see who our future PG is, that makes even more sense with the longer term strategy at play. We will go with this 2 guard system to see who is our future PG and worry about the rest later.

That's not a good idea because what if Bledsoe turns out to be the better PG? We then let Knight walk in free agency after trading multiple key assets including the highly valuable LAL first rd pick for him? Or do we resign him to save face even if it means going forward with the dual PG lineup even though every player involved hates it?

 

[Covert Rain]

I remember reading an article last year that Hornacek is the one who pitched the "dual PG" lineup to McD in job interviews and used the Hornacek-KJ example. McD was immediately sold on the idea and loved it.

Can you provide a link? I might have just missed it. I don't remember reading anything like that but it's possible.

That's not a good idea because what if Bledsoe turns out to be the better PG? We then let Knight walk in free agency after trading multiple key assets including the highly valuable LAL first rd pick for him? Or do we resign him to save face even if it means going forward with the dual PG lineup even though every player involved hates it?

We managed to get some picks and some bodies in here with a potential future star in Knight. It's a calculated risk worth taking. The alternative was to keep what we have and go nowhere and let the guys we have on the roster walk or have a fire sale for them later. It's worth the risk.