Suns intend to offer Steve Nash multiyear deal

[SunsTzu]

I'd be happy with this guy, he would be perfect for Phoenix and Phoenix would be perfect for him. Rig it Stern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSBLKrZCkeU

Even if the Suns find themselves in the unlikely position of being able to draft Rubio I doubt they do it. They just invested heavily in Dragic and still have Nash under contract.

Also not sure why Stern would want to do the Suns any favors, if anything he'd probably want Ricky putting up video game numbers playing for D'Antoni down the street from the league office.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

If somehow Portland got Ricky and the Suns make no impressive moves this offseason, I will be a Trailblazer fan for 2010.

 

[Errntknght]

Thanks for the Rubio video, slin. Looked for all the world like a young Pistol Pete out there, right down to the hair bobbing around. Same wealth of variety in his passes. It would be a horrible waste if he went to grind it out team that mainly wanted him to feed it into the post...

 

[Sunburn]

Thanks for the Rubio video, slin. Looked for all the world like a young Pistol Pete out there, right down to the hair bobbing around. Same wealth of variety in his passes. It would be a horrible waste if he went to grind it out team that mainly wanted him to feed it into the post...

seconded

 

[Skkorpion]

Discussion about needing or not needing to blow up the team astounds me. This team has already been blown up. Past tense. All that is left to do is extract the shrapnel pieces and rebuild.

Nash is shrapnel. He has jagged edges that can still hurt you but he's ancient spent ordnance beyond salvage.

 

[mojorizen7]

Discussion about needing or not needing to blow up the team astounds me. This team has already been blown up. Past tense. All that is left to do is extract the shrapnel pieces and rebuild.

Nash is shrapnel. He has jagged edges that can still hurt you but he's ancient spent ordnance beyond salvage.

^ Memo to SUNS organization.

 

[nashman]

^Wrong, Nash is a piece that should stay Amar'me and Shaq need to go!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

^Wrong, Nash is a piece that should stay Amar'me and Shaq need to go!

Excellent, all I needed to know from the most unbiased member of the board. Shocked to see you'd want Nash to stick around.

 

[nashman]

yeah yeah and when we have a winning season and go to the playoffs next year all you haters will be saying we did it despite Nash right? Bull, Nash has made this team better since he has been here some of you need to take a step back from your Nash hate and realize this guy is still very good and is an ASSET to this team. I forgot there were a bunch of PG's out there 50, 40, 90% happens all the time right?

 

[binkar]

yeah yeah and when we have a winning season and go to the playoffs next year all you haters will be saying we did it despite Nash right? Bull, Nash has made this team better since he has been here some of you need to take a step back from your Nash hate and realize this guy is still very good and is an ASSET to this team. I forgot there were a bunch of PG's out there 50, 40, 90% happens all the time right?

I don't think anyone has argued that Nash isn't a good shooter or that he isn't good offensively so that argument really does nothing to sway anyones opinion.

 

[Covert Rain]

^Wrong, Nash is a piece that should stay Amar'me and Shaq need to go!

I would prefer all 3 to go so we can stock up on younger talent. However, if I had to choose, it would be Nash going. Amare has more upside then Nash because of age and because despite Amare's tendency to dissappear on defense...Nash has none.

 

[jandaman]

I dont think Stoudemire outsiee of putting up big scoring outputs have much ceiling or upside these days either... he is an average rebounder for his size, mediocre defender also.

 

[nashman]

We have seen Amar'mes' upside and its not getting any better! His knees will continue to worsen and could become untradeable in the future, he has done nothing to lead me to believe he has any part in Suns history and should be traded. Nash has changed the face of this organization since he came back to Phoenix if he wants to be here they should accomodate him! Not to mention he is still one of the better PG's out there and a good leader of young men, which is important. Amare is a player that cares more about himself and his stats than the team I for one will not be that sad seeing him go.

 

[LV-Suns]

Yeah, since a 26 year old big man has hit his ceiling, we should build around the 35 year old declined PG. Why do we have to accommodate Nash? What has he bought into this organization that's worth more than Amare? We don't owe him anything.

Good thing you call him "one of the better PG's now." Top 5 in the league was getting a little ridiculous.

EDIT: You also claimed we were a much better team without Amare constantly after we beat the likes of Clippers, Thunder, etc. How come we didn't make the playoffs?

 

[nashman]

because we wasted half a season with a terrible coach... its not because of Nash. Who said we are building a team around Nash anyway just because he is the PG doesn' mean you have to build around him as a franchise player don't be ridiculous. And Nash is a top 5 PG name five better? And we are clearly a better team without Amare if you watch the game you could see it, our shot selection is MUCH better as the ball moves much better instead of sticking to Amar'mes' hands! Much better shots are taken because we don't have Amare trying to get his all the time, tired of watching him trying to take it to the hole against a bunch of defenders and either turning the ball over or making dumb offensive fouls and yelling and 1 everytime like a moron. He doesn't get calls because he doesn't deserve them with his dumb decisions to try and force things everytime the ball touches his hands!

 

[LV-Suns]

because we wasted half a season with a terrible coach... its not because of Nash. Who said we are building a team around Nash anyway just because he is the PG doesn' mean you have to build around him as a franchise player don't be ridiculous. And Nash is a top 5 PG name five better? And we are clearly a better team without Amare if you watch the game you could see it, our shot selection is MUCH better as the ball moves much better instead of sticking to Amar'mes' hands! Much better shots are taken because we don't have Amare trying to get his all the time, tired of watching him trying to take it to the hole against a bunch of defenders and either turning the ball over or making dumb offensive fouls and yelling and 1 everytime like a moron. He doesn't get calls because he doesn't deserve them with his dumb decisions to try and force things everytime the ball touches his hands!

We were as bad with Gentry as the Coach as with Porter. 54% winning under Porter, 58% under Gentry. How does this say one is clearly a "MUCH" better team? This team had more fluid offense under Gentry. Defensively, we were much worse without Amare. Opposing teams managed to score 11.7 more points a game while only shooting only 0.8 more shots a game.

What's wrong with Amare getting his? He is one of the most efficient scorers in the league. Last year, Amare had a true shooting percent of 65%. Can you name one player currently playing who has done that? No, no active player has shot such high percent before. I don't see whats wrong with him being selfish if he manages to convert his.

How does he manage to shoot such high percent shots every season if he forces his shots? Last season, Amare lead the team in win shares, #2 in the whole league(15.3 games).

 

[devilalum]

^Wrong, Nash is a piece that should stay Amar'me and Shaq need to go!

I hear ya.

I wouldn't want to be Dragicman either.

 

[Covert Rain]

We have seen Amar'mes' upside and its not getting any better!

Actually Amare's number have gotten better each season. The problem is they are only small jumps and still underachieves. I say Amare has more upside because he has yet to have a season where he has gone the other direction or gotten worse.

Nash has. Nash's defense is worse. His turnovers are worse. That trend will continue.

We were as bad with Gentry as the Coach as with Porter. 54% winning under Porter, 58% under Gentry. How does this say one is clearly a "MUCH" better team? This team had more fluid offense under Gentry. Defensively, we were much worse without Amare. Opposing teams managed to score 11.7 more points a game while only shooting only 0.8 more shots a game.

We were a worse defensive team under Gentry and his winning percentage was not great. I think the defense would be slightly better with Amare but not by much. The defensive getting worse under Gentry has more to do with the run and gun system then it does Amare. If Amare was a defensive stopper that would be different.

If we don't get better defensive players...this trend will continue. If we don't dump this run and gun system (outscore versus defend)....this trend will continue.

How does he manage to shoot such high percent shots every season if he forces his shots? Last season, Amare lead the team in win shares, #2 in the whole league(15.3 games).

What you are leaving out is Amare's turnovers. Those are a direct result of him "forcing". Amare's hands were horrible this season and he doens't have a "true" back to the basket game. That's been one area that I would love someone to work with him on.

 

[jagu]

Trade Amare, Nash, Shaq, get draft picks and lets rebuild already. Keeping Nash is stupid.

 

[Chaplin]

Trade Amare, Nash, Shaq, get draft picks and lets rebuild already. Keeping Nash is stupid.

Yeah! And while we're at it, let's solve the economic crisis tomorrow!!

 

[Ninjafish]

Nash has. Nash's defense is worse. His turnovers are worse. That trend will continue.

That's actually not true. His turnovers are not worse. His 3.4 this season is his lowest since 04-05. Under Gendry, it's considerably lower. (Just averaging 2.4 in Feb, 2.9 in March, and 2.3 in April)

 

[Covert Rain]

That's actually not true. His turnovers are not worse. His 3.4 this season is his lowest since 04-05. Under Gendry, it's considerably lower. (Just averaging 2.4 in Feb, 2.9 in March, and 2.3 in April)

Sorry, I was not clearer. Nash has gotten progressively worse over the course of his career in Phoenix in 2 areas. Turnovers and Defense at the PG position. If you look at his last 5 seasons here in those two categories and his previous 6 as a Mav, there is no doubt he is worse when look at his averages. However, the point was that Amare has improved areas of his game every single year. The point is that there is no upside to Nash and he will continue to get worse as he gets older. At least it’s debatable if Amare has.

Also, I think your numbers are a bit off for March. But here is a break down.

February TO
Nash (6,2,0,3,1,3,2,5,5,3 = 30) = 3 per game
Phoenix was worst in the NBA at the PG position for this month (63)
Nash = 31% of the teams total TO
Phoenix overall rank 3rd worst in the NBA

March TO
Nash (5,2,3,3,0,0,2,2,7,2,4,3,1,3, 7= 44) = 2.9
Phoenix was 5th worst in the NBA at the PG position for this month (62)
Nash = 19% of the teams total TO
Phoenix overall rank #3rd worst in the NBA

April TO
Nash (3,4,2,2,1,2,3,1=18) = 2.3 per game
Phoenix was 12th worst in the NBA at PG for the month (27)
Nash= 15% of teams total TO’s

April by far was his best month on a per game average but horrible is still horrible despite the drop. Plus, there were only 8 games in the month of April and that is a bad sampling at that. Steve Nash played his fewest minutes per game out of any month, 6 out of the final 8 he played less than 35 minutes while Dragic was getting more minutes than at any point in the season (18 minutes per game). Not to mention that by game 3 of the month the Suns knew they were done and the pressure was off.

Sounds like a horrible outing even under Gentry to me. Even if you don’t believe April was a matter of circumstance (which I think is), and even if Steve finished at about 2.6 range clip under Gentry, he would still qualify as one of the 10 worst in the NBA.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that the TO problem is all on Steve but he is a huge part. Also, Steve's defense to me is the bigger liability and he just lacks the ability. This system is horrible for both defense and from a turnover perspective. Also, in the playoffs, the Suns are always forced to slow things down against good teams. Gentry’s claim to fame is going back to the old system. Well we already know that Steve would be playing more half court in the playoffs…..so even any potential small improvement would evaporate come playoff time (assuming the run and gun system is when he is most effective).

I just don’t see how keeping this system in place or keeping Steve for that matter gets us any closer. So, why not trade him why he has value or before he completely falls off the cliff? If you have to trade either Nash or Amare, I would trade Nash. Personally, I would ship all 3 out of here (Nash, Amare & Shaq) to rebuild. If I had to pick 2 it would be Nash and Shaq (only because of age and current value). If I had it my way...all 3 would be gone before the next season starts.

 

[Ninjafish]

Sorry, I was not clearer. Nash has gotten progressively worse over the course of his career in Phoenix in 2 areas. Turnovers and Defense at the PG position. If you look at his last 5 seasons here in those two categories and his previous 6 as a Mav, there is no doubt he is worse when look at his averages. However, the point was that Amare has improved areas of his game every single year. The point is that there is no upside to Nash and he will continue to get worse as he gets older. At least it’s debatable if Amare has.

Since Nash's turnovers this season are lower than they were last season, and that year was lower than the one before that, there's plenty of doubt. You were clear enough in your first post. It's just.. not true. Nash's defense is the same as it ever was, bad. It's not any worse than it was in 06-07 when we were a contender. Point guards tear us apart more now because we have Shaq and he can't defend pick and roll or do anything against penetrating guards.

Are you kidding with Amare improving every year? His stats are down in every area from last year. He has improved zero in defense and rebounding since he came here. And his FG% right now is the lowest it's been since 2004.

February TO
Nash (6,2,0,3,1,3,2,5,5,3 = 30) = 3 per game
Phoenix was worst in the NBA at the PG position for this month (63)
Nash = 31% of the teams total TO
Phoenix overall rank 3rd worst in the NBA

Interesting that you take Nash's TOs from the entire month in February as a way to criticize his play under Gentry, even though the first Gentry game was on the 17th. Weird. You have to be aware that the coaching change didn't take place on Feb 1st, so I'm not sure why you would do that.

Anyway, (6, 2, 0, 3, 1 = 12) = 2.4 per game, as I said before.

March TO
Nash (5,2,3,3,0,0,2,2,7,2,4,3,1,3, 7= 44) = 2.9
Phoenix was 5th worst in the NBA at the PG position for this month (62)
Nash = 19% of the teams total TO
Phoenix overall rank #3rd worst in the NBA

Nash was top 5 behind Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Tony Parker. Man, those are some horrible point guards... He was also #3 in assists for March. He was #4 in points. He was #2 in FG% among point guards who play more than 20 minutes a game. He was #2 in efficiency. The fact that he was able to have less TOs than Paul, Williams, and Parker despite staying in the same class as them in other areas and despite clearly not being as good as them is a VERY good thing.

Sounds like a horrible outing even under Gentry to me.

Then you're crazy.

Steve Nash played his fewest minutes per game out of any month, 6 out of the final 8 he played less than 35 minutes while Dragic was getting more minutes than at any point in the season (18 minutes per game).

This is ideal. It should be the goal for next season.

I just don’t see how keeping this system in place or keeping Steve for that matter gets us any closer. So, why not trade him why he has value or before he completely falls off the cliff? If you have to trade either Nash or Amare, I would trade Nash. Personally, I would ship all 3 out of here (Nash, Amare & Shaq) to rebuild. If I had to pick 2 it would be Nash and Shaq (only because of age and current value). If I had it my way...all 3 would be gone before the next season starts.

If that happened, then we would instantly be one of the bottom lottery teams in the NBA, without a draft pick to show for it. I'd much rather be where Denver and Dallas is right now than be where the Kings or the Wolves or the Bucks are. (Especially without a draft pick!) Your rebuilding plan turns us into the Kings, Wolves, and Bucks. I don't want that and I don't think most Suns fans want that.

This system along with Nash had us being a contender 2 years ago. Since Nash is still one of the top point guards and doesn't look to have declined at all, I think all we need is to trade Shaq and JRich and get some better defenders in their place, make a wise draft selection, have a full season with a healthy Amare under Gentry and we'd be good again. We'd have to be extremely lucky to make the right moves and our GM would have to make smarter decisions than he has made thus far, but so is the case with any team that wants to contend.

Probably my last reply because I don't have the energy or desire for these long time consuming posts where I have to keep opening up stat sites to check and argue stats. It's really boring and tedious. Your posts are always too long.

 

[Covert Rain]

Since Nash's turnovers this season are lower than they were last season, and that year was lower than the one before that, there's plenty of doubt. You were clear enough in your first post.

Obviously not. The point was that Nash is not improving year after year and his numbers are clearly worse since leaving the Mavs from that perspective. Again, the point was that Nash has no upside. His numbers are slightly down but he is defenitely worse since the start of his career with the Mavs.

Nash's defense is the same as it ever was, bad. It's not any worse than it was in 06-07 when we were a contender. Point guards tear us apart more now because we have Shaq and he can't defend pick and roll or do anything against penetrating guards.

Not true. It's not much worse but worse. Nash was allowing 22.1 Points per 48 in 06-07. He is allowing 22.5 this year. So, I agree bad is bad but Nash is just going to get worse with age. Again, your missing the point. No upside to Nash's defensive game and he will get worse.

Are you kidding with Amare improving every year? His stats are down in every area from last year. He has improved zero in defense and rebounding since he came here. And his FG% right now is the lowest it's been since 2004.

I was comparing Nash's defense to having no upside but making the point that Amare does still have some upside IMO. Amare's defense (points allowed) 07-08 Per 48 (Forward 26.1, Center 23.9). This year (Forward 20.2. Center 18.1). Amare is no offensive stopper but that tells me he still has upside.

In terms of offense, ofcourse his numbers are down. Shaq dominates the paint.

Interesting that you take Nash's TOs from the entire month in February as a way to criticize his play under Gentry, even though the first Gentry game was on the 17th. Weird. You have to be aware that the coaching change didn't take place on Feb 1st, so I'm not sure why you would do that.

I was not just critizing Nash's play under only Gentry. I was criticizing Nash play overall. Even under Gentry Nash is still one of the worst in the league. It's great Nash gets scores and Nash gets all of these assists. However, Nash's defense & turnover negates much of the posititve things he does.

Also, I did also mention it was not all on Nash. This system is horrible. Look at the team defense numbers under Gentry and the "old system". We are clearly worse overall. The run and gun system might have opened up our offense but even under Porter we were still one of the best team in the NBA at offense. Defense was our problem and we clearly are worse under the old system.

If that happened, then we would instantly be one of the bottom lottery teams in the NBA, without a draft pick to show for it. I'd much rather be where Denver and Dallas is right now than be where the Kings or the Wolves or the Bucks are. (Especially without a draft pick!) Your rebuilding plan turns us into the Kings, Wolves, and Bucks. I don't want that and I don't think most Suns fans want that.

We are no closer retooling either. This team clearly is not title material and we dont' have the pieces we need to be either. We have had enough years of "entertainment" for 10 franchises. If we used our value players to stock up on draft picks and put us into a position to rebuild from the ground up...I see us becoming another Portland (not the Kings, Wolves or Bucks). Plus, I think this team can bring in players from FA much easier then Portland.

This system along with Nash had us being a contender 2 years ago. Since Nash is still one of the top point guards and doesn't look to have declined at all, I think all we need is to trade Shaq and JRich and get some better defenders in their place, make a wise draft selection, have a full season with a healthy Amare under Gentry and we'd be good again. We'd have to be extremely lucky to make the right moves and our GM would have to make smarter decisions than he has made thus far, but so is the case with any team that wants to contend.

The Suns can't win close games or play enough defense to get it done when it counts. Nash is the weakest link on this team defensive wise and has always gotten our bigs into trouble.

 

[Austin]

If you notice, when shaq was on the bench, the center on the floor, whether it be lopez or lou or whoever, played the pick and roll better and the penetration was not as bad as when shaq was on the floor. Nash is not a good defender by any means, but it was not his fault that Shaq can't defend the pick and roll. Nash needs to stay, Shaq needs to go.