Suns intend to offer Steve Nash multiyear deal

[joshstmarie]

Nash has gotten progressively worse over the course of his career in Phoenix in 2 areas. Turnovers and Defense at the PG position.

Nash hasnt gotten worse, hes always been bad....the teams defensive peices have been depleted making it harder to cover up nash's defensive collapses. and with a team thats like a revolving door its no suprise to me that nashs turnovers were higher this year. new people means new tendencies.. people have been crying nash is on his decline for years now.. i need more proof.

 

[Covert Rain]

Nash hasnt gotten worse, hes always been bad....the teams defensive peices have been depleted making it harder to cover up nash's defensive collapses. and with a team thats like a revolving door its no suprise to me that nashs turnovers were higher this year. new people means new tendencies.. people have been crying nash is on his decline for years now.. i need more proof.

I already posted his stats on giving up more points from his position. Also, show me one PG who after age 36 didn't start to deteriorate as his career went on? Steve is at that age. Bottom line is that Nash is horrilble. Steve Nash has never been an anchor on a good defensive team.

As long as Steve Nash is our starting PG the Suns will never be a great defensive team. We will never play good enough defense to get it done (win a title) which is the goal.

 

[Mainstreet]

The simplicity of the matter is the Suns do not have a better PG on the team. Add a better PG to the roster and I think he will eventually evolve into being the Suns starter. I'm not sold on Dragic yet. It will be interesting if the Suns draft another PG which I think they should. I hope the Suns do not reach for another position when the talent is clearly at the PG position.

 

[joshstmarie]

I already posted his stats on giving up more points from his position.

and i already said that as the teams defensive pieces have been dismantled (marion, bell, boris, KT) nashs bad defense has been pushed more into the spotlight. did you count the fact that he is 2nd in the league in charges taken? probably not.

Also, show me one PG who after age 36 didn't start to deteriorate as his career went on?

show me a pg that plays at a such a breakneck speed with devistating offense capabilitys after 36 and has proven YET AGAIN that he is still playing at an all star level at nashs age.

Bottom line is that Nash is horrilble.

this conversation is done.

 

[Covert Rain]

and i already said that as the teams defensive pieces have been dismantled (marion, bell, boris, KT) nashs bad defense has been pushed more into the spotlight. did you count the fact that he is 2nd in the league in charges taken? probably not..

So what? He is still one of the worst individual defenders in the league. What is your point? We are one of the worst teams in the NBA at defending from the PG position. How does the fact that he takes charges make him a good defender?

show me a pg that plays at a such a breakneck speed with devistating offense capabilitys after 36 and has proven YET AGAIN that he is still playing at an all star level at nashs age.

Again, so what? Show me a team in the NBA that plays at that speed with such a defensively horrid PG such as Nash that has a title to show for it. I am not questioning Steve's offensive ability. I am not questioning his contribution to this team since he has been here. Simply stating that as long as this team cares more about offense then defense with Steve Nash at the helm, we will never win a title.

 

[mojorizen7]

So what? He is still one of the worst individual defenders in the league. What is your point? We are one of the worst teams in the NBA at defending from the PG position. How does the fact that he takes charges make him a good defender?



Again, so what? Show me a team in the NBA that plays at that speed with such a defensively horrid PG such as Nash that has a title to show for it. I am not questioning Steve's offensive ability. I am not questioning his contribution to this team since he has been here. Simply stating that as long as this team cares more about offense then defense with Steve Nash at the helm, we will never win a title.

+1
Nor will we even sniff one. Face it, some fans are just hell bent on believing that you can sprint your way thru a marathon. The only way that offensive minded,run n gun jumpshooting basketball will ever win a title is if all the other 15 postseason teams adopt that style too.
It's never gonna happen. 10

 

[joshstmarie]

How does the fact that he takes charges make him a good defender?

dont put words in my mouth, i didnt say it makes him a "good defender". charges taken gives your team an extra possession im not sure why I need to explain to you why thats a good thing.

Again, so what? Show me a team in the NBA that plays at that speed with such a defensively horrid PG such as Nash that has a title to show for it.

this argument is going to go nowhere because i believe with a full squad in our golden years (+no broken face JJ, no bloody nose nash, no amare/boris suspensions) that we would have won a championship at least one of those times. you are going to come back and say "well we never did".

and then i remind myself in one of your last posts that you said

Bottom line is that Nash is horrilble.

thats funny.

 

[Ninjafish]

+1
Nor will we even sniff one. Face it, some fans are just hell bent on believing that you can sprint your way thru a marathon. The only way that offensive minded,run n gun jumpshooting basketball will ever win a title is if all the other 15 postseason teams adopt that style too.
It's never gonna happen. 10

-1
You are a brick wall, Mojorizen. One way a run and gun jump shooting team could win a title is if two suspensions didn't happen two years ago. Or if we had Amare and Bell healthy in the WCF in 06. Or if we had kept Joe Johnson.

Beating a dead horse is right.

 

[cly2tw]

dont put words in my mouth, i didnt say it makes him a "good defender". charges taken gives your team an extra possession im not sure why I need to explain to you why thats a good thing.


this argument is going to go nowhere because i believe with a full squad in our golden years (+no broken face JJ, no bloody nose nash, no amare/boris suspensions) that we would have won a championship at least one of those times. you are going to come back and say "well we never did".

-1
You are a brick wall, Mojorizen. One way a run and gun jump shooting team could win a title is if two suspensions didn't happen two years ago. Or if we had Amare and Bell healthy in the WCF in 06. Or if we had kept Joe Johnson.

1. If for one charge taken you have left 3 times the 3pt shooter wide open, I'm not sure whether it is good. If Nash could re-cover the 3pt shooting line while planning to take the charges, I'd have no problem.

2. Bell, Hill injuries were due to fatigue they sustained from playing huge min. in regular season under DA. Even when there were no suspension for Amare/Diaw, we would have still been underdogs to win against Spurs. I put the odds at 20%. The reason is clear: Our offense reduced to Amare and Nash against Spurs every time we met in playoffs, cos they had the proper defensive game plan to make it so. Shooting seems to be the only quality of his offense that's left to be applicable for our offense, and p-n-r with Amare. If not for Amare stepping up his game during playoffs, we'd not have even been in the game to begin with. That's why some of us here are fed up with the pretty run and gun good for regular season.

 

[mojorizen7]

-1
You are a brick wall, Mojorizen. One way a run and gun jump shooting team could win a title is if two suspensions didn't happen two years ago. Or if we had Amare and Bell healthy in the WCF in 06. Or if we had kept Joe Johnson.

Beating a dead horse is right.

Dude,we had game 5 won in '07.........without Amare/Diaw. We choked it away because of the oh so familiar reasons.
Couldn't get a stop in crunch time,couldn't buy a crucial rebound, and relying on jumpshots to fend off the opponents final push(having Amare would've helped us get better shots in that game but it wouldn't have helped us rebound or defend).
How about game 6? SUNS traditionally have always been a little tougher and grittier on the road IMO......so we get our guys back and rally around the gutsy effort put forth in the previous game right?.....We're down only
3-2 at that point. So we go back to S.A. and we lie down....D'Antoni included.

'06 was tough but i just don't believe we had enough grit to get by a scrappy Miami team anyway. I read SSOL and those guys were running on fumes by the time we met up with Dallas in the WCF.

What if we hadn't let Joe Johnson go? Are u serious?
Joe Johnson wasn't the missing piece(we could sure use him now though),the SUNS were s_o_f_t in the middle so they went out & got KT, a pleasant surprise of an aquisition IMO, very smart. Too bad he was relegated to Lou Amundsen type minutes for the most part....dumb.

 

[joshstmarie]

if i remember correctly we KILLED the heat in the regular season that year and EVERYONE knew it would have been a freaking suns sweep if we end up making it past the spurs.

 

[SunsTzu]

if i remember correctly we KILLED the heat in the regular season that year and EVERYONE knew it would have been a freaking suns sweep if we end up making it past the spurs.

It was the Mavs that beat the Suns that year and with Bell injured as well I highly doubt the Suns would have won. Not to mention the ridiculous officiating in the Finals(Mavs killed the Heat in the regular season that year too iirc).

 

[mojorizen7]

regular season is just that.

 

[Covert Rain]

dont put words in my mouth, i didnt say it makes him a "good defender". charges taken gives your team an extra possession im not sure why I need to explain to you why thats a good thing.

You were insinuating that I didn't think Nash was a good defender because I didn't include the times he takes a charge. You said "I didn't count the fact". Your words not mine.

Point still stands. A couple extra possessions a game doesn't change anything. I bet I could provide plenty of examples in those same games where Nash coughed up the ball and let his man drive by him more then he took charges.

this argument is going to go nowhere because i believe with a full squad in our golden years (+no broken face JJ, no bloody nose nash, no amare/boris suspensions) that we would have won a championship at least one of those times. you are going to come back and say "well we never did".

You can beleive what you want. The fact is it didn't happen. Coulda woulda shoulda. We didn't get it done. Look at the teams that have one the title. They have one thing in common. Good defense. Nash doesn't help in that category.

Dude,we had game 5 won in '07.........without Amare/Diaw. We choked it away because of the oh so familiar reasons.
Couldn't get a stop in crunch time,couldn't buy a crucial rebound, and relying on jumpshots to fend off the opponents final push(having Amare would've helped us get better shots in that game but it wouldn't have helped us rebound or defend).

How about game 6? SUNS traditionally have always been a little tougher and grittier on the road IMO......so we get our guys back and rally around the gutsy effort put forth in the previous game right?.....We're down only
3-2 at that point. So we go back to S.A. and we lie down....D'Antoni included.

'06 was tough but i just don't believe we had enough grit to get by a scrappy Miami team anyway. I read SSOL and those guys were running on fumes by the time we met up with Dallas in the WCF.

What if we hadn't let Joe Johnson go? Are u serious?
Joe Johnson wasn't the missing piece(we could sure use him now though),the SUNS were s_o_f_t in the middle so they went out & got KT, a pleasant surprise of an aquisition IMO, very smart. Too bad he was relegated to Lou Amundsen type minutes for the most part....dumb.

+1

 

[joshstmarie]

You were insinuating that I didn't think Nash was a good defender because I didn't include the times he takes a charge. You said "I didn't count the fact". Your words not mine.

once again youre making things up out of thin air, i never suggested you thought nash was a bad defender because you didnt count his charges taken. WHAT IM SAYING...GET OUT YOUR NOTE PAD NOW OK!?! is that nash IS a bad defender, but he DOES make up for it by taking charges that lead to turnovers... OK!?

Point still stands. A couple extra possessions a game doesn't change anything. I bet I could provide plenty of examples in those same games where Nash coughed up the ball and let his man drive by him more then he took charges.

uhhhhhhh ok, so you make a GIGANTIC DEAL out of how nash turns the ball over then you say "a couple extra possessions a game doesnt change anything" thats got to be the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.

You can beleive what you want. The fact is it didn't happen.

called that one

 

[joshstmarie]

regular season is just that.

exactly, it is. and we didnt play the heat in the post season, so im going to assume we would have spanked them just like we did in the regular season.

 

[cly2tw]

once again youre making things up out of thin air, i never suggested you thought nash was a bad defender because you didnt count his charges taken. WHAT IM SAYING...GET OUT YOUR NOTE PAD NOW OK!?! is that nash IS a bad defender, but he DOES make up for it by taking charges that lead to turnovers... OK!?

uhhhhhhh ok, so you make a GIGANTIC DEAL out of how nash turns the ball over then you say "a couple extra possessions a game doesnt change anything" thats got to be the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.
:

TOs by Nash normally result in two fastbreak points for the other team. Charges taken, we are still to do the half court offense. Besides, to be in a position to take charges, Nash constantly leave his own assignment open for 3pts. So, if I were the coach I'd instruct him to stick to his man unless it's fastbreak when there is a chaos. In this sense, intercepted pass TO is more costly than offensive foul TO, particularly so for this year's Suns with no transition defense to speak of.

Someone might have the stats, but IIRC, under Gentry whenever Nash either led the team in scoring, played big minutes, and/or had many turnovers, we lost the game. I don't think our wins are correlated with number of charges taken by him.

 

[joshstmarie]

TOs by Nash normally result in two fastbreak points for the other team. Charges taken, we are still to do the half court offense.

straws.

 

[Covert Rain]

once again youre making things up out of thin air, i never suggested you thought nash was a bad defender because you didnt count his charges taken. WHAT IM SAYING...GET OUT YOUR NOTE PAD NOW OK!?! is that nash IS a bad defender, but he DOES make up for it by taking charges that lead to turnovers... OK!?

Well that's the first time you made yourself clear. So, the couple charges he takes per game makes up for the Turnovers and bad defense?? On what planet? I pulled out my notepad but I am afraid to write something down so ridiculous.

uhhhhhhh ok, so you make a GIGANTIC DEAL out of how nash turns the ball over then you say "a couple extra possessions a game doesnt change anything" thats got to be the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.

Uhhhh I was referring to Nash's turnovers plus his all around defense play. Nash is a double whammy in that department. Gives up easy buckets caused by turnovers and gives up easy buckets with his 1 on 1 defense. I would say those two things combined are pretty GIGANTIC. I have said it before. I would have no problems with Nash if his only problem was turnovers and he played shut down defense. His assists would always outweigh any turnovers. When you combine both there is no making up for it.

 

[Ninjafish]

Dude,we had game 5 won in '07.........without Amare/Diaw. We choked it away because of the oh so familiar reasons.

We choked it away because we had a 5 man rotation that D'antoni ran into the ground, as I've said before. Just the fact that we were close with a 5 man rotation should show that we would have murdered them with Amare and Diaw. Just like we had blown them out in the previous game in Phoenix.

How about game 6? SUNS traditionally have always been a little tougher and grittier on the road IMO......so we get our guys back and rally around the gutsy effort put forth in the previous game right?.....We're down only
3-2 at that point. So we go back to S.A. and we lie down....D'Antoni included.

Game 6 is irrelevant in this discussion. Losing it doesn't prove in the slightest that we wouldn't have won our two remaining home games. If it wasn't for the suspensions, we still might not have won, but I'd say our odds were very good.

'06 was tough but i just don't believe we had enough grit to get by a scrappy Miami team anyway. I read SSOL and those guys were running on fumes by the time we met up with Dallas in the WCF.

There's no way to know for sure what would have happen, but again I'll say that I would have liked our chances.

What if we hadn't let Joe Johnson go? Are u serious?

Are you? It's hard to believe that a core of Nash, Amare, Marion, and JJ wouldn't have got it done eventually.

Joe Johnson wasn't the missing piece(we could sure use him now though),the SUNS were s_o_f_t in the middle so they went out & got KT, a pleasant surprise of an aquisition IMO, very smart. Too bad he was relegated to Lou Amundsen type minutes for the most part....dumb.

Yes, but that's a D'antoni flaw, not a Run and Gun flaw.

Uhhhh I was referring to Nash's turnovers plus his all around defense play. Nash is a double whammy in that department. Gives up easy buckets caused by turnovers and gives up easy buckets with his 1 on 1 defense. I would say those two things combined are pretty GIGANTIC. I have said it before. I would have no problems with Nash if his only problem was turnovers and he played shut down defense. His assists would always outweigh any turnovers. When you combine both there is no making up for it.

Sure there is, that's why he was MVP for two years and the team made it to the WCF two years in a row.

 

[joshstmarie]

Well that's the first time you made yourself clear. So, the couple charges he takes per game makes up for the Turnovers and bad defense??

yes. it helps.

I have said it before. I would have no problems with Nash if his only problem was turnovers and he played shut down defense.

sounds like you want a cross between chris paul, steve nash and chauncy billups... wonder what kind of standards you have for a girlfriend. i know in your fantasy world (heck in mine too) that would be perfect and i wouldnt argue with you, but there isnt anyone even CLOSE to available at nash's level. we mind as well keep the "old dog" around because we dont have a first round draft pick next year anyways.

 

[Covert Rain]

yes. it helps.

Helps but doesn't negate the bad.

sounds like you want a cross between chris paul, steve nash and chauncy billups... but there isnt anyone even CLOSE to available at nash's level.

No I don't. I would take Chris Paul or Billups over Nash any day of the week. We need their defense more then we need Nash's offense. Defense wins titles.

Chris Paul is > Steve Nash

Sure there is, that's why he was MVP for two years and the team made it to the WCF two years in a row.

No "sure there is" would be if we won a title. Still didn't play enough defense when it was close to get it done.

 

[joshstmarie]

No I don't. I would take Chris Paul or Billups over Nash any day of the week. We need their defense more then we need Nash's offense. Defense wins titles.

Chris Paul is > Steve Nash

WOW youre so cutting edge saying cp3 is better than nash.. tim duncan > amare. whats your point? we arent getting either of those players and steve is still better than 99% of the point gaurds out there. im not sure why im even arguing with you anymore. and if you think cp3 or billups individual defense would solve the suns problems you know alot less more than i thought.

 

[Covert Rain]

WOW youre so cutting edge saying cp3 is better than nash.. tim duncan > amare. whats your point? we arent getting either of those players and steve is still better than 99% of the point gaurds out there. im not sure why im even arguing with you anymore. and if you think cp3 or billups individual defense would solve the suns problems you know alot less more than i thought.

The Suns will not win a title with Nash. You use his value now to help you get pieces you need for the future. What part of that don't you get? Also, Nash is NOT better than 99% of the guards out there if you count defense. Nash is a fantastic offensive talent and a horrid defensive one.

Last but not least, I never said getting rid of Nash alone would solve all of our defensive problems. Obviously, you don't pay attention. However, getting a defensive minded PG would be a great start. If you don't get that then I hope you enjoy entertaining basket ball for another 40 years without a title.

The point was not if we could get one of these guys. The point was that if you could get a competent defensive minded PG like Chris Paul or Billups on this team it's instantly better defensively.

 

[joshstmarie]

The Suns will not win a title with Nash. You use his value now to help you get pieces you need for the future. What part of that don't you get? Also, Nash is NOT better than 99% of the guards out there if you count defense. Nash is a fantastic offensive talent and a horrid defensive one.

once again, we have no pick next year, what good does it do to let nash (a fan favorite and kind of an ok basketball player) go? in your opinion it sounds like nash is such a bad defensive player and the whole league knows it, we couldnt get more than maybe a 2nd rounder out of him.

Last but not least, I never said getting rid of Nash alone would solve all of our defensive problems. Obviously, you don't pay attention. However, getting a defensive minded PG would be a great start. If you don't get that then I hope you enjoy entertaining basket ball for another 40 years without a title.

youre clueless man, nash is the reason we got to where we went NOT the reason we DIDNT get to where we were trying to go. PERIOD.

The point was not if we could get one of these guys. The point was that if you could get a competent defensive minded PG like Chris Paul or Billups on this team it's instantly better defensively.

yes, that is clearly obvious. these guys are all nba defensive players.