Suns @ Kings Sunday game thread 12-27-2020

[CardsSunsDbacks]

So we agree that he's above average defensively and below average offensively.

Apparently not. He is average offensively (so far this season) and well above average defensively.

That’s if we are only talking about the small sample of this season. He has been above average on offense the last 2 years and good on defense since last year.

 

[SirStefan32]

Just watched the game, and really crappy first half, but solid quarter and a half at the end. I am a little concerned that they are not starting games well, but I am guessing they are rusty and things will start to come together soon. Good job taking care of the ball in this game, and a great job by the bench again. Very happy to see Bridges and Cam Johnson playing well, taking open shots and driving to the hoop.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm going to toss my hat into the Ayton disagreement and say this:

Ayton is both a good player AND a disappointment. He isn't a scrub, and is one of the top centers in the league. The context is that center is about as poorly manned today as the position ever has been, so all time, Ayton isn't that good.

He is a huge disappointment because he was the #1 overall pick and the Suns missed out on a potential generational talent in Doncic and a real good, albeit ball hog point guard as well.

But he is still a good, contributing player so it's not like he is a total waste. And he will end up being overpaid at some point if he doesn't take another big step forward.

At least the Cardinals made the right choice...

 

[1Sun]

I'm going to toss my hat into the Ayton disagreement and say this:

Ayton is both a good player AND a disappointment. He isn't a scrub, and is one of the top centers in the league. The context is that center is about as poorly manned today as the position ever has been, so all time, Ayton isn't that good.

He is a huge disappointment because he was the #1 overall pick and the Suns missed out on a potential generational talent in Doncic and a real good, albeit ball hog point guard as well.

But he is still a good, contributing player so it's not like he is a total waste. And he will end up being overpaid at some point if he doesn't take another big step forward.

At least the Cardinals made the right choice...

The frustrating thing is that he has the physical gifts to be another David Robinson or Patrick Ewing, but he will likely settle for being another Armon Gilliam or Benoit Benjamin.

 

[95pro]

Just watched the game, and really crappy first half, but solid quarter and a half at the end. I am a little concerned that they are not starting games well, but I am guessing they are rusty and things will start to come together soon. Good job taking care of the ball in this game, and a great job by the bench again. Very happy to see Bridges and Cam Johnson playing well, taking open shots and driving to the hoop.

Starting games, CP3 from the start looks to control everything, how long he handles the ball, what sets to run, and i think Booker and Ayton being the primary scorers of the starters are having a bit of a time adjusting to that. Booker is not being demanded to score so much anymore, and Ayton can't wrap his head around a good pick-and-roll game. Also Crowder, it looks like right now he's mostly being used a corner 3 guy, if you look at plays from last year he was shooting at the top and other two sides of the arc. Then CP3 goes out only half way through the first quarter for a bench guy, most times Carter i think.

Carter has been a disappointment offensively, he's missed a lot of shots and force a lot of shots. I'm not liking it when he dribbles up and shoots right away. Payne should come off the bench first imo, his penetration is great, quickness and defense is just as - if not - better than Carter.

Last night that unit really brought it, i think it was Booker, Kam, Cam, Payne and i dont remember the 5th guy. But they went to work in the 3rd.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's nice to get a player from another team and he gives a little payback to his former team. Although Frank Kaminsky was not on the Kings regular season roster it tasted sweet nevertheless.

Frank is just happy to be a Sun.

He was 5-10 from the field for 11 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists and a block.

 

[elindholm]

Apparently not. He is average offensively (so far this season) and well above average defensively.

That’s if we are only talking about the small sample of this season. He has been above average on offense the last 2 years and good on defense since last year.

We'd have to agree on who he's being compared with. If it's all "centers" in the league, including backups whose only skill is being tall, then yes. If it's centers who earn real minutes, then no, Ayton is not average offensively.

As for his defense, he's been very good at defensive rebounding, and I could see him winding up top-five in that category. And I know that the numbers say he has a low FG% allowed for the player he's defending. But he's not a rim protector and he's almost always too slow to be of any use as a help defender. So to me, that adds up to "above average" defensively, but not "well above average."

Offensively, he plays like a slightly more coordinated Dragan Bender, although Bender would sometimes attempt a dunk, so you'd have to give him the edge in aggression. Ayton may prove to be the superior three-point shooter, and maybe that's how he'll find a role in the offense. But right now, there is no place on the floor where he's a real threat, and a healthy percentage of the Suns' wasted offensive possessions are the ones where they pathetically try to force-feed him.

Over the two recent Sacramento games,

Ayton: 59 min, 20 pts, 27 reb, 5 fta, 1 blk
Holmes+Whiteside: 74 min, 33 pts, 30 reb, 11 fta, 5 blk

The Kings' pair had more minutes, and that's not Ayton's fault. But if you adjust for minutes played, they outplayed him in every facet of the game by a wide margin, except rebounding. And of course it was one win for each side, so that's a draw.

So either Ayton is mediocre, or Holmes and Whiteside are borderline elite. Take your pick.

 

[Carolinacacti]

there is no place on the floor where he's a real threat

Disagree defenses are game planning for him. No way is he not a treat.

 

[Mainstreet]

Agree if teams have to game plan for a player they are a threat.

There was a reason the Suns were getting those good looks at the basket.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton with the rebound, quick outlet to Paul for perfect pass to Booker on fast break.

It doesn't get prettier than that.

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[mjb21aztd]

Good win by the suns

Paul with Booker is soo fun to watch like the true backcourt 2000 lol remember kidd penny

Also nice to see a doubke double from ayton

Big gm vs pelicans see how ayton does vs zion.....

 

[95pro]

Good win by the suns

Paul with Booker is soo fun to watch like the true backcourt 2000 lol remember kidd penny

Also nice to see a doubke double from ayton

Big gm vs pelicans see how ayton does vs zion.....

We also have to contend with Adams too

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Good win by the suns

Paul with Booker is soo fun to watch like the true backcourt 2000 lol remember kidd penny

Also nice to see a doubke double from ayton

Big gm vs pelicans see how ayton does vs zion.....

Crowder will guard Zion.
Ayton will have to deal with Adams.

Bledsoe v Suns

Lonzo SZN

Ingram and Booker, newly minted all stars.

Should be a good one.

 

[95pro]

Briges on ingram should be a good one.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Extremely weird to complain about Ayton’s “drive” after a game in which he controls the glass and has zero turnovers.

It's actually not. He has zero drive. ZERO

Ayton will get the max for his next contract, if not from the Suns, then from someone else. There's no point even debating it. Sure, he's mediocre, but two years from now he'll still be a great physical specimen with "potential." Look at the numbers that get thrown around each summer and tell me that Ayton won't be one of the top targets if he hits the open market.

I agree.... He's getting the max from us regardless of whether he improves or not.

He's mediocre? The game is played on both ends and while his offense may be lacking he is getting it done both on the board and as a defensive presence for us.

Totally mediocre. +/- last night and only 29min played with 2 PF's. Yes.... he did have 15 boards. 12 defensive.

Suns now win 10 out of 11 games and all I see is posts about Ayton. I swear we will win game 7 in the finals and people will be complaining about Ayton's 15 rebounds.

Why is it so hard to see that Ayton should AVERAGE 25 and 15? With any inner pride, the kid could be a singular offensive force in this game.

His talent, and physical gifts demand a higher level of expectation from not only the fans.... but also from his coaches.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Why is it so hard to see that Ayton should AVERAGE 25 and 15? With any inner pride, the kid could be a singular offensive force in this game.

His talent, and physical gifts demand a higher level of expectation from not only the fans.... but also from his coaches.

I think we all see that. But why is it so hard to see that he can be less than what he's capable of and still be better than mediocre? I'm not arguing that his play thus far has actually been better than mediocre - that first half Saturday night was so bad he'd have needed to play like a superstar to move into the above average category but in general, I believe he's a better than average player.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I think we all see that. But why is it so hard to see that he can be less than what he's capable of and still be better than mediocre? I'm not arguing that his play thus far has actually been better than mediocre - that first half Saturday night was so bad he'd have needed to play like a superstar to move into the above average category but in general, I believe he's a better than average player.

Maybe it's part of that expectations game for me.

Regardless of draft pick..... His gifts require more.

I think fans should expect their players to play (at a minimum) hard. If he doesn't play hard and still gets 15 and 10 each night, that would make him look worse to me than a guy like Cam, a pick I derided who is now making me eat a ton of crow (I love the taste now).

Play HARD. Not to your potential. HARD is a minimum requirement for me. Maybe that's a "just me" opinion. Not sure.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Maybe it's part of that expectations game for me.

Regardless of draft pick..... His gifts require more.

I think fans should expect their players to play (at a minimum) hard. If he doesn't play hard and still gets 15 and 10 each night, that would make him look worse to me than a guy like Cam, a pick I derided who is now making me eat a ton of crow (I love the taste now).

Play HARD. Not to your potential. HARD is a minimum requirement for me. Maybe that's a "just me" opinion. Not sure.

They do, they absolutely do. And I agree with the rest of this, it's just that it has no bearing on whether he's an average or below average or above average player. I'm unimpressed by his overall play thus far this season but IMO his impact on defense along with his counting stats put him in the above average category over the past year or so.

 

[Dr. Jones]

They do, they absolutely do. And I agree with the rest of this, it's just that it has no bearing on whether he's an average or below average or above average player. I'm unimpressed by his overall play thus far this season but IMO his impact on defense along with his counting stats put him in the above average category over the past year or so.

I'm with you. My points are generally spiritual in nature.

Tell me your thoughts on these two scenarios:

1. Player with all the tools and gifts of the greatest to ever play and is given a starting role yet continues to play at a just above league average level.
2. Player with one serious NBA gift trains his ass off to become an above league average player and eventual starter for your team.

Which player would you root for? Or...... Want to see play more minutes?

I just can't make any excuses, or give any leash to a player in the 1st scenario. They just make me want to look at something different. Why should I root for you when you can't even be bothered to play hard.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm with you. My points are generally spiritual in nature.

Tell me your thoughts on these two scenarios:

1. Player with all the tools and gifts of the greatest to ever play and is given a starting role yet continues to play at a just above league average level.
2. Player with one serious NBA gift trains his ass off to become an above league average player and eventual starter for your team.

Which player would you root for? Or...... Want to see play more minutes?

I just can't make any excuses, or give any leash to a player in the 1st scenario. They just make me want to look at something different. Why should I root for you when you can't even be bothered to play hard.

I just don't understand the whole league average talk.

The best sample we have to go off of would be his play last season and last season he was arguably a top 10 big man in the NBA (including 4s and 5s).

If that equals an average player than I am just at a complete loss for words here.

 

[elindholm]

The best sample we have to go off of would be his play last season and last season he was arguably a top 10 big man in the NBA (including 4s and 5s).

You can "argue" anything you want, but he received zero All-NBA votes, putting him behind (by my count) ten bigs who got at least one.

 

[Mainstreet]

If Ayton develops into a Bam Adebayo type player I will be quite happy.

I saw a glimpse of that last night when Deandre was helping to initiate the offense with his passing. It's really the first time he showed me that he could do more than score, rebound and be the occasional defensive force. This made me wonder if his basketball IQ is much higher than we give him credit. If this is the case, he is still just putting his game together.

 

[95pro]

If Ayton develops into a Bam Adebayo type player I will be quite happy.

I saw a glimpse of that last night when Deandre was helping to initiate the offense with his passing. It's really the first time he showed me that he could do more than score, rebound and be the occasional defensive force. This made me wonder if his basketball IQ is much higher than we give him credit. If this is the case, he is still just putting his game together.

Bam can dribble though and initiate the offense, or drive to the hoop if needed. Ayton simply cannot dribble and drive, one of the most basic moves.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

You can "argue" anything you want, but he received zero All-NBA votes, putting him behind (by my count) ten bigs who got at least one.

There are 3 all NBA teams and a total of 6 bigs on those teams. Then factor in that at least 3-4 of those guys are absolute shoe ins to make those teams and it is understandable why the votes aren't very spread out. Of course his suspension kind of took him out of the running for that anyways.

Winning is also a factor in getting voted into those teams. Look no further than Booker for that.

Bottom line is that Ayton brings a skill set that very few other players in the league bring.

Did you know that Ayton was one of only 3 players to average 18/11/1 last season?

Or that he was one of only 9 players to even average 15/10/1 last season?

There aren't many players in the league that can score 18 points efficiently, while grabbing double digit rebounds consistently and that can protect the rim as well.

On top of all of that Ayton can step out and guard quick 1s though 3s on the perimeter. He simply does more things at an average to above average level than most other players at his position.

 

[Mainstreet]

Bam can dribble though and initiate the offense, or drive to the hoop if needed. Ayton simply cannot dribble and drive, one of the most basic moves.

Bam was only an example. Jokic is not very athletic and the Nuggets run much of their offense through him.

I'm simply saying if the Suns can funnel some of their offense through him, it increase his value to the team.