Suns @ Mavericks Game Thread

[BuddyFranklin]

Sometimes this board ain't fun. There is so much bitching on this site! You guys argue like little kids.

Tonights game was a tough loss. whatever each person thinks, if we're elite or not, i'm confident we can take care of teams like SA and Dallas. We lost by 2 on the road. This one could've gone either way. I look forward the next time we play Dallas and San Antonio. Thats the competition we need to become comfortable in these high pressure games.

Bell played a stinker as did Marion, but half of that is Dallas putting them off their games. They are a very good defensive team now. Stat and Nash played well. I think the key going forward is if Boris is going to be aggresive. He needs to go inside and hit those sweeping hooks he's so good at. Teams zero in on Nash, Stat and Shawn but when Boris plays like the allstar type player he is capable of, we usually win.

Go Suns!

 

[az1965]

there are three divisions - someone's gotta win ours.

Elite is a select class - some people may want that net to swing wide, but in reality, it never does. At this point there's two teams - the Spurs and the Mavs - both of which have actually been to the Finals AND as of right now, have the two best records in the league - THAT'S what makes them elite, not to mention the fact that as of right now, they've shown the ability to beat each other and their challengers below them.

again, I measure greatness against greatness at this point of the season - so far, we're 0-fer. Not sure how you measure your team, but that's the way I, and I'd assume anyone else who's competitive and has played sports, measures themselves.

There was a stat on this board that I posted where the Suns and Spurs had a similar winning trend, i.e. beating losing vs. winning team. Moreover, Spurs are beaten by Bobcats whereas we have only lost to all winning teams (except Wizards and they have beaten some good teams lately on the road). So how can Spurs be elite and we are not?

 

[jandaman]

I dont think Marion played that bad.

What did it for the Suns is the amount of turn overs.... Bell had a pretty bad one which resulted into a Terry assists to Howard... in which Bell gave an And 1....

22 turn overs... wasn pretty.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So do we consider the Heat elite due to them WINNING the finals last year? Its difficult to have an intelligent conversation/debate on what teams are or are not elite when the definition keeps changing.

Of course we defeated them so it doesn't count

First notice - I said the Mavs and Spurs are both NBA Finals teams AND have the best record in the league THIS YEAR - thus you have not only PAST PERFORMANCE, but you also have CREDIBILITY THIS YEAR AS WELL - you throwing a Shaq-less and horrendous Heat team which is NOWHERE NEAR even .500 as evidence of my faulty logic isn't just stupid and nonsensical, it's really bordeline ********.

as far as "we defeated them, so it doesn't count" - are you freaking serious? We beat a Shaq/Wade-less Heat team - even if they WERE elite, which they aren't right now, hell no that wouldn't be considered counting as an impressive win and anyone that would think otherwise is without a doubt one of the biggest losers I've ever heard of in my entire life.

 

[Cheesebeef]

you'd think if they could all go either way, we would have won, oh I don't know, maybe ONE of those games. 0-6 doesn't lie at this point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

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We lost by two on the road....aaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!

you gotta love when a moderator throws up hyperbolic trash which serves to inflame others even more than already is happening.

way to rule there you freaking douchebag Chris.

yeesh - lots of people here that just can't talk basketball and have the need to be incessant ******** when a realistic opinion is offered.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This coming from a guy who's scared to play Denver?

Dallas has NO chance of beating PHX with a healthy Amare and Nash in the playoffs. Mark it down. PHX hasn't peaked, and is still finding out how deep the bench can go.

If any of you basketball geniuses think Diop and Dampier can stop or even slow down Amare... then you better think again.

The only concern PHX should have right now is keeping the main core healthy and finding a consistent 8-9 man.

The regular season is simply a tune-up for this team. Who cares if PHX ends up playing Dallas or SA on the road? Home court hasn't meant jack in the playoffs for quite some time.

what makes you think we're going to see a fully healthy Amare this season Sly? Has he been good this season? Yeah, but he ain't close to being 2004-5 Amare. If you could guarantee me he'd be 2004-5 Amare, than yeah, I'd agree, but I think that's a pipe dream. He's still likely a year away from being fully recovered and anyone who thinks otherwise just really doesn't remember how disgusting he used to be.

 

[3rdside]

So how can Spurs be elite and we are not?

Wouldn't worry about cheesbeef's opinion right now, we know he gets wound up in the moment, says something that sounds convincing then hindsight proves him wrong. Thought everyone knew that ;-).

My gauge for an elite team - a top record and sustained, deep playoff success. Do we have a top record now and will this still be the case by seasons end? Yes. Have we had sustained playoff success and will we have another deep playoff run? Yes. We're an elite team...

Marion's performance was about what I expected. Once in a while he comes up big in a crucial game, but usually he goes on a vanishing act. It's because good defensive teams negate his athletic advantage and force the game to be played more on the basis of skill, where he is unexceptional

Big call; maybe unfounded? Just checking his figures in last years playoffs (better teams and better defence / crucial games) - Marion averaged 20.4 ppg and 11.7 rpg. During the season it was 21.8 and 11.8. Down marginally but hardly a dissappearing act and certainly not unexceptional.

One of my fantasy teams this season is, in fact, called the "Trade Marion Bandwagon." Welcome aboard.

You're such a bitch! I still believe he's the glue that keeps this team together. Trading him would be ridiculous IMO considering we know exactly what we get with Shawn and really don't know what we'd get if he was traded for somebody else. The downside risk is just too big...

 

[Ollie]

There's a name-calling festival today ? Where do I sign up ?

 

[greensborohill]

Good game

Good game last night.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

you gotta love when a moderator throws up hyperbolic trash which serves to inflame others even more than already is happening.

way to rule there you freaking douchebag Chris.

yeesh - lots of people here that just can't talk basketball and have the need to be incessant ******** when a realistic opinion is offered.

Unbelievable.

You just got banned not last week for a post like this. I went light and decided only 3 days at the time despite the fact that you have been banned numerous times for posts like this.

Since you are unwilling to control your insulting attitude/posts, your ban this time is a month.

 

[elindholm]

Marion's performance was about what I expected. Once in a while he comes up big in a crucial game, but usually he goes on a vanishing act. It's because good defensive teams negate his athletic advantage and force the game to be played more on the basis of skill, where he is unexceptional

Big call; maybe unfounded? Just checking his figures in last years playoffs (better teams and better defence / crucial games) - Marion averaged 20.4 ppg and 11.7 rpg. During the season it was 21.8 and 11.8. Down marginally but hardly a dissappearing act and certainly not unexceptional.

I said his skill level is unexceptional, and of course I meant versus other good NBA players, not the general population.

Marion was great against the Clippers, who can't be considered a good defensive team and were also rattled by being in the second round of the playoffs for the first time since, whenever it was, 1927. Marion's numbers were low against the Lakers and way off against the Mavericks.

You're such a bitch!

I'm not a moderator, but even so, you should go easy on the name-calling.

I still believe he's the glue that keeps this team together. Trading him would be ridiculous IMO considering we know exactly what we get with Shawn

Please read CaptainInsano's original post, including the passage in which he wrote, "Add me to the definitive 'trade marion' bandwagon, regardless of if we can trade him now or not." Maybe then you'll have a better idea of where my response was coming from.

Context, people.

 

[Louis]

I was pretty surprised last night with Dallas' defense late in the game. Wasn't it something like 4 possessions in a row the Suns used the entire shot clock?

I noticed during those possessions they were trying to get something going with Amare by running the pick and roll. Each time Amare didn't get the ball immediately and because of a switch he had Jason Terry defending him in the post. Instead of calling for the ball, Amare stood on the opposite side without making any other attempt at getting involved offensively.

I would've liked to have seen JuJones defend J-Ho more often and early. Bell guarding him didn't work as Bell appears to have lost a step from last season. Terry lit Marion's hiney and it now appears Marion guarding the opposition's best guard doesn't work. (see Hibachi and Terry).

I would not be opposed to trading Marion either BTW. He does many things nobody in this league can do, but his weaknesses are part and parcel to the Suns' demise in the POs.

 

[Covert Rain]

Unbelievable.

You just got banned not last week for a post like this. I went light and decided only 3 days at the time despite the fact that you have been banned numerous times for posts like this.

Since you are unwilling to control your insulting attitude/posts, your ban this time is a month.

In terms of Amare, one play said it all for me. The ally oop that Steve threw up to him and he grabbed it with one hand over another player and slammed it. THAT'S the AMARE that I remember.

To me, that play more then any other shows me that Amare is on his way back. We have not seen anything like that from him in a while. The majority of his dunks have been clear paths or dunks at angles from the pick and roll.

I said it before to those that keep saying Amare is back. He is not back until you see him go up fearless over people and start seeing him doing overpowering dunks on players domes. If he gets back in that mode, starts getting to the foul line more, I can't see any team having anyone that can stop him.

Even though I wanted this game, I hope it PO of the Suns enough that they crush this team next time. I think with Amare the light switch will come on this season at some point. Then the league better watch out.

By the way, thought Marion on Terry was a bad coaching decision. Maybe Bell just doesn't have his step this year and can't keep up with Terry. However, Marion should have been on Howard all night. Playing Terry on the outside drew Marion away from the boards all night long. That to me was huge mistake on the coaches part.

 

[hafey]

Couple things:

1. Eric's description of Marion is very accurate. Good teams are well-coached, talented, and deep enough to take away more than one of the Suns strengths. Often these teams, take away Marions athletic and energetic game by concentrating on being physical and getting back on defense. Eric is right that Shawn's fundamentals (shooting, dribbling) are unremarkable limiting his effectiveness in this games. Does this mean he should be traded? I am not sure what kind return we could even get for him, and if that return would even make the Suns more well-rounded. I would like to see D'Antoni make some adjustments to get him more involved in the course of these type of games.

2. I think Amare's post game is underrated by both the national, studio types and people around here. It's easy to do because the Suns rarely post anyone up. Let Amare post up PF's and C's. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but I think you have to try and develop that part of the Suns half court set.

3. Despite 35+ years of worrying about the front court, right now, the SG position concerns me the most. The Suns need a shooting threat from that position and Bell has been up and down.


EDIT: I should say, I am not in the trade Marion camp. I would listen, but the deal would have to be amazing.

 

[Covert Rain]

Couple things:

1. Eric's description of Marion is very accurate. Good teams are well-coached, talented, and deep enough to take away more than one of the Suns strengths. Often these teams, take away Marions athletic and energetic game by concentrating on being physical and getting back on defense. Eric is right that Shawn's fundamentals (shooting, dribbling) are unremarkable limiting his effectiveness in this games. Does this mean he should be traded? I am not sure what kind return we could even get for him, and if that return would even make the Suns more well-rounded. I would like to see D'Antoni make some adjustments to get him more involved in the course of these type of games.

If that was true then Marion's averages would be way down. Marion does just fine against good teams. Last year Marion did nothing but help this team in the playoffs. Marion's problems last night were that the coach had him guarding a guard who was on the outside the entire game in Terry. Marion was drawn away from the boards and expended all his energy chasing Terry around who looked like the road runner last night.

Since we don't depend on Marion's dribbling, I would hardly say that impacts his effectiveness. We don't depend on him for that. That's like pointing out that Amare's inability to hit a 3 impacts his effectiveness. Marion has so many fast break points and hits the boards in games when others don't. There are things that Marion may not do well but who are you going to replace him with? How do you replace a guy that does 20, 10 is in the top 10 in steals in the league???

If we could get someone who could replace those stats then OK. However, you can't just assume that we could replace those stats with a combination of guys. We all know that Coach D likes to keep a short rotation. Now you expect to throw 2 to 3 guys into the rotation? That's not going to happen. To me the positive's outway the negatives with Marion. Trading Marion away hurts this team and doesn't help unless hes part of some block buster trade (like a 3 way) to bring a major piece in here.

 

[hafey]

I don't think you caught my edit. Marion's lack of dribbling does become a factor when he isn't able to do other things. However, all in all I think we agree more than we disagree.

 

[Louis]

I don't think you caught my edit. Marion's lack of dribbling does become a factor when he isn't able to do other things. However, all in all I think we agree more than we disagree.

Especially since he likes to loiter out at the three point line. His lack of dribbling skills wouldn't be so problematic if he played closer to the paint.

What hurts even more is that last night when the offense stalled he's not someone you could toss the ball to for an isolation against a defender because he won't be creating his own shot because he lacks those particular skills.

Guy can rebound and play defense like few others in this league and he runs the open court better than most everybody, but he isn't as skilled as he is athletic.

*Edit*

Regarding the who could we get for Marion talk. It would be naive to think we could get anybody as good as Marion or someone that could fill the box score the way he does. But next season the Suns are in line to draft a potentially high lottery pick. Meaning they could draft someone very good like a Noah or Horford which would lessen the impact of trading Marion elsewhere.

The trade doesn't have to happen during the season, but if the Suns don't get to the promised land this year a major tweak should be expected.

 

[hafey]

And I don't think it is negative or denigrating Marion to point out what he is good at and what he is bad at. It's just reality. And reality is, he is one of the best players in the league because he is so good at what he is good at, so to speak.

 

[se7en]

Does anyone remember the play with about a minute left and the Suns up by 2 or 4 points where Barbosa received a charging call against Devin Harris? I felt that was really the turning point in the game. Without that call, the momentum goes back to the Suns favor and the Mavs are left trying to shoot 3’s to play catch up.

I’m always unsure on what a fair charging call is. It sure seemed like Harris was shuffling the heck out of his feet on that play to get in front Barbosa. I mean he was practically running sideways. What exactly are the rules on that? I think that was the turnover that finally took the wind out of the Suns sails. How much movement is legal?

 

[msdundee]

Last night's game goes in the record as a loss but it's pretty mind-boggling that it prompts such an avalanche of "reality" definitions and resumption of the Trade Marion crusade. There were plenty of negatives for the Suns -- no need to list them as they've already been run into the ground. There were also some real positives that made it a close game down to the wire.

No matter which side of the fence you're on, a 2-point game decided with the last shot is not definitive. It wasn't a demoralizing loss and neither was it a decisive win.

 

[se7en]

Regarding the who could we get for Marion talk. It would be naive to think we could get anybody as good as Marion or someone that could fill the box score the way he does. But next season the Suns are in line to draft a potentially high lottery pick. Meaning they could draft someone very good like a Noah or Horford which would lessen the impact of trading Marion elsewhere.

Ron Artest is available. He’s a small forward who does everything that Marion can’t - get his own shot, drive to the basket and play great defense. Is it worth the high risk/reward? I would think the Suns could get an additional decent player (to make the salaries work) and or maybe a draft pick out of the Kings as they seem desperate for good citizens. And let’s not forget that Marion went to UNLV and the Maloofs are based in Vegas. Just a little connection there.

 

[elindholm]

I’m always unsure on what a fair charging call is. It sure seemed like Harris was shuffling the heck out of his feet on that play to get in front Barbosa. I mean he was practically running sideways. What exactly are the rules on that? I think that was the turnover that finally took the wind out of the Suns sails. How much movement is legal?

I think that call was because Barbosa had lowered his left (driving) shoulder and led with it into Harris's chest. The offensive player can't do that, even if the defensive player is moving. I'm not saying it was a good or bad call, but that's what I think it was based on.

 

[hafey]

a. A dribbler shall not (1) charge into an opponent who has established a legal guarding position, or (2) attempt to dribble between two opponents, or (3) attempt to dribble between an opponent and a boundary, where sufficient space is not avail-able for illegal contact to be avoided.
b. If a defender is able to establish a legal position in the straight line path of the dribbler, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his dribble.
c. The dribbler must be in control of his body at all times. If illegal contact occurs, the responsibility is on the dribbler.
PENALTY: The offender is assessed an offensive foul. There is no team foul. The ball is awarded to the offended team on the sideline nearest the spot where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended.
EXCEPTION: Rule 3--Section I--a.
d. If a dribbler has sufficient space to have his head and shoulders in advance of his defender, the responsibility for illegal contact is on the defender.
e. If a dribbler has established a straight line path, a defender may not crowd him out of that path.
PENALTY: The defender shall be assessed a personal foul and a team foul. If the penalty is not in effect, the offended team is awarded the ball on the sideline nearest the spot where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended. If the penalty is in effect, one free throw attempt plus a penalty free throw attempt is awarded.

The charging statutes. It was a good call. Harris was in a legal guarding position between Barbosa and the basket (barbosa's shoulder hit Harris in the middle of the chest).

 

[Chaplin]

The charging statutes. It was a good call. Harris was in a legal guarding position between Barbosa and the basket (barbosa's shoulder hit Harris in the middle of the chest).

True, but it was in no way blatant and certainly not rough. Harris was moving, after all, and it was more like a graze than a ramming of his shoulder into Harris's chest. It's just another example of bad officiating at the end of NBA games (not just for the Suns, but the whole league).