Suns @ Mavericks Game Thread

[Evil Ash]

and thus early in the season - WE ARE NOT ELITE - no one's talking about the future - just saying that right now, tyo call us elite, when we've gone 0-6 against the top 5 in the West seems pretty ridiculous to me. There's really TWO elite teams - the Mavs and SA and then there's the second tier with us, Utah and probably Detriot. But right now, that 0-6 is pretty damning as far as deciding who is and isn't elite. How else do you measure yourself in this league? Against like teams, right? Well, we haven't beaten a one, so I still fail to see, how at this point, we can be considered at their level.

San Antonio lost to the friggin Bobcats. The Mavs have struggled against teams like the Warriors

Its a little early to put anyone in the elite company yet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Mavs also have lost to the Clippers and the Warriors, does that mean they aren't elite either?

good lord. did you really just type that?

 

[Evil Ash]

Afer being defeated handly in our first matchup against the Mavs on our court, it was our obligation to win and prove that we were either better or on the same plane as the Mavs. We p!ssed that chance away tonight

Huh? We lost to a good team on the road

Big friggin whoop

Why are people acting like the playoffs start tomorrow?

 

[Chaplin]

good lord. did you really just type that?

I did--if you're going to use flawed logic in support of your theory, you have to apply it to every team in the league.

 

[TJ]

Nobody is saying we're better than the Mavs. But we are definitely in the same category with them. If we had taken better care of the ball today, this outcome might have been a lot different.

Im certainly glad you have so much confidence in this team, but this team has lost and lost considerably to the West's best teams. Jazz twice, Mavs Twice, Spurs and (God forbid) the Lakers. Lord knows what Denver is going to do to us when we finally meet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

San Antonio lost to the friggin Bobcats. The Mavs have struggled against teams like the Warriors

Its a little early to put anyone in the elite company yet.

so it's a little early to put anyone in the elite company but you are telling people to shut up about saying the Suns aren't elite now? Seems pretty contradictory to me Ash.

and sorry, but after 30 games, you have a pretty good idea of what the teams look like - it's 40 percent of the season. So far, we haven't won one game against the top 5 teams in the league and yet some people can say we're just as good as them (like Chap does down below saying we're in the same category as the Mavs who are now 2-0 against us, with a road win)?

It's okay to just say:

"We're not there yet, but the potential to be where we want to be is. Let's hope that potential proves true."

Not sure why people can't just admit that.

 

[Big D]

The main difference between the Suns and the Mavs as I see it is the same thing it was last season, defense. When the Suns had a nice lead with about 7 mins to go Dallas absolutely put the clamps on us. Conversely, we could not stop them at all and they went on a big run to close out the game. To win a title you have to be able to stop somebody, right now the Suns can't. Guys that are supossed to be our 'defensive stoppers' (Marion and Bell) don't stop anybody, and the other three guys we run out there at any given time are just flat out soft on D.

 

[TJ]

Huh? We lost to a good team on the road

Big friggin whoop

Why are people acting like the playoffs start tomorrow?

0-6 against the West's top teams. We have a lot to prove. Luckily there are 82 games in the season

 

[Cheesebeef]

I did--if you're going to use flawed logic in support of your theory, you have to apply it to every team in the league.

how is my logic flawed? We lost to the Clippers also.

I measure the best against the best - how that's flawed I'll never know. We're 0-6 against the best teams in the league. No one else in that rarified air has as pathetic a record, or realy even close.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Huh? We lost to a good team on the road

Big friggin whoop

Why are people acting like the playoffs start tomorrow?

who's doing that?

why is it ALWAYS the Kool-aiders who turn to hyperbole. We're talking about RIGHT NOW - and right now, when stacked up against the best, we can't win one game - that's where it's at. Doesn't mean it won't change, but to throw the hyperbole above just inflames the situation, but I suppose that's what you want since you really have no arguement about where we're at at the present.

 

[Evil Ash]

so it's a little early to put anyone in the elite company but you are telling people to shut up about saying the Suns aren't elite now? Seems pretty contradictory to me Ash.

and sorry, but after 30 games, you have a pretty good idea of what the teams look like - it's 40 percent of the season. So far, we haven't won one game against the top 5 teams in the league and yet some people can say we're just as good as them (like Chap does down below saying we're in the same category as the Mavs who are now 2-0 against us, with a road win)?

It's okay to just say:

"We're not there yet, but the potential to be where we want to be is. Let's hope that potential proves true."

Not sure why people can't just admit that.

Thats what I've been trying to say but people go too far in the other direction and act as though we should bow before the Mavs because they are better then us no matter the point in the season. I'm sorry but I call BS

There are way too many things that can change between now and the playoffs before I declare anyone to be elite. Are the Spurs elite if Duncan gets hurt? How about Dallas and Dirk? The only thing the elite label should be used for now is HYPE pure and simple.

 

[Evil Ash]

who's doing that?

why is it ALWAYS the Kool-aiders who turn to hyperbole. We're talking about RIGHT NOW - and right now, when stacked up against the best, we can't win one game - that's where it's at. Doesn't mean it won't change, but to throw the hyperbole above just inflames the situation, but I suppose that's what you want since you really have no arguement about where we're at at the present.

Its no win with guys like you is it? I say the potential is there, you say we're crap now

Maybe we're not elite now but there are far too many factors that can change between now and the end of the season that will determine ours and every other good teams fortune. Other then that as of this point, its pure HYPE.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Being a tad melodramatic here, aren't we? The Suns lost early due to the large number of personnel changes that took place with the players getting used to each other's tendencies.

If the season ended tomorrow and continued to play like we have lately there would be plenty of cause for concern. The players should be adjusted by the time the playoffs roll around. Last I checked the All-Star game hasn't even been played yet, its a little early to hit the panic button

AGAIN - more ridiculous rhetoric. Why can't someone just post their opinion about where we are RIGHT NOW without being accused of "hitting the panic button" or "jumping ship" or whatever other hyperbolic inflammatory comment that's coming next?

as far as losing early because of yada, yada, yada - funny, but the last two losses - against two good teams looked EXACTLY like the losses at the beginning of the season - that's what's distressing to me. Poor rebounding, bad fourth quarter defense and meltdown on offense in the last two minutes of the fourth. If we were losing differently, maybe I'd see your point, but these last two games - you know - when we actually started playing NBA Caliber Teams again have looked exactly like those close losses when I'm sure people like you were saying: if we can just improve out rebounding, turnovers and missed FTs we're there.

it's 30 games later and we're still not there - that's all I'm saying. Not saying we won't be (as much as you keep intimating that I am), just saying that RIGHT NOW we aren't.

 

[Black Jesus]

Marion and Bell played like crap tonight. Bell had a bad foul, a horrible pass, and allowed Terry to drop 45. Marion dropped a dunk on the way up, and wasnt attacking the basket. Everytime he would stop after running full speed and take a jumper from the freethrow line. I want to know why we gave up on kurt thomas tonight... Players other than Nash have to play smart, and that isnt happening, when the ball isnt in nash's hands, we look blind, deaf, and dumb. Also, we botched 3 out of timeout plays.

Props to Amare and Nash tonight. Amare decided to play today and apparantly Marion took offense to that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Its no win with guys like you is it? I say the potential is there, you say we're crap now

good lord - you just can't help yourself can you? I'm saying the potential is there, but we ain't elite right now - how that equates into me saying WE'RE CRAP is pathetic and even more inflammatory.

Just because RIGHT NOW I don't think we're as good as SA and Dallas doesn't mean WE'RE CRAP - good lord Ash. Just keep spewing though, I'm sure you'll get enough on the bandwagon to crucify those who actually have a realistic opinion of where we're at right now.

 

[mribnik]

who's doing that?

why is it ALWAYS the Kool-aiders who turn to hyperbole. We're talking about RIGHT NOW - and right now, when stacked up against the best, we can't win one game - that's where it's at. Doesn't mean it won't change, but to throw the hyperbole above just inflames the situation, but I suppose that's what you want since you really have no arguement about where we're at at the present.

I agree with you completely. This is also why I think it's important to step back from games like this and look at the positives. We turned the ball over a ton, rebounded poorly, were in foul trouble with Marion and Diaw most of the second half and lost on the road to the team with the best record by 2 points.

The Amare and Nash pick n roll in this game was solid in the second half, and Dallas could not defend it. They can't defend Amare now and they won't be able to later in the season when he gets even better. I also thought Jumaine Jones played excellent defense on Josh Howard. He should start to get more minutes as well. Also, when Nash was out of the game at the end of the third and the beginning of the fourth the team played well, which is also very positive.

 

[Chaplin]

When you lose by only 2 points to one of the best teams in the league, that doesn't mean you lost by 20 to the Atlanta Hawks.

You're right, we lost to San Antonio and a couple other good teams back when we went 1-6. I don't even know how you can honestly look at that stretch of games and think they represent ANYTHING about this current team. D'Antoni didn't even have a rotation at the time. Remember Amare doing NOTHING for the first couple weeks of the season?

 

[Chaplin]

good lord - you just can't help yourself can you? I'm saying the potential is there, but we ain't elite right now - how that equates into me saying WE'RE CRAP is pathetic and even more inflammatory.

Just because RIGHT NOW I don't think we're as good as SA and Dallas doesn't mean WE'RE CRAP - good lord Ash. Just keep spewing though, I'm sure you'll get enough on the bandwagon to crucify those who actually have a realistic opinion of where we're at right now.

It's perfectly acceptable to say we aren't as good as SA and Dallas. Hell, you're probably right, but the difference is marginal. Extremely marginal--it doesn't automatically put us in the "second tier". If Dallas played San Antonio and beat them by 8, for example (more points than we have lost to any team this season), would that disqualify SA from being "elite"? The question then is if SA DID lose to Dallas, are the Mavs that much better?

Admittedly, all we're talking about here is semantics, and since the game is lost, it should be pretty easy to move on to the next one. I'm still not afraid of any team in the league, regardless of their status as an "elite" team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with you completely. This is also why I think it's important to step back from games like this and look at the positives.

to be honest, I can understand looking at positives, but at some point, those positives are going to have to translate to W's, otherwise we're gonna be looking at SA and Dallas without homecourt and NO ONE here wants that.

 

[mribnik]

to be honest, I can understand looking at positives, but at some point, those positives are going to have to translate to W's, otherwise we're gonna be looking at SA and Dallas without homecourt and NO ONE here wants that.

Yep, they are and you are absolutely correct. I believe they will translate into W's against good teams later on in the season.

 

[Chaplin]

to be honest, I can understand looking at positives, but at some point, those positives are going to have to translate to W's, otherwise we're gonna be looking at SA and Dallas without homecourt and NO ONE here wants that.

If you remember, no one here even expected that. But now, even by your post, it sounds like even you believe there is a possibility of getting home court in the playoffs. How does that not make us "elite"?

 

[Cheesebeef]

When you lose by only 2 points to one of the best teams in the league, that doesn't mean you lost by 20 to the Atlanta Hawks.

all you have is ridiculous hyperbole. When people can't argue the basic facts and need to blow things out of proportion (as you're doing above) you know they have no argument.

we simply haven't proven the ability to beat anyone good at this point in the season.

I don't know why that is so difficult for some people to admit.

 

[Evil Ash]

AGAIN - more ridiculous rhetoric. Why can't someone just post their opinion about where we are RIGHT NOW without being accused of "hitting the panic button" or "jumping ship" or whatever other hyperbolic inflammatory comment that's coming next?

as far as losing early because of yada, yada, yada - funny, but the last two losses - against two good teams looked EXACTLY like the losses at the beginning of the season - that's what's distressing to me. Poor rebounding, bad fourth quarter defense and meltdown on offense in the last two minutes of the fourth. If we were losing differently, maybe I'd see your point, but these last two games - you know - when we actually started playing NBA Caliber Teams again have looked exactly like those close losses when I'm sure people like you were saying: if we can just improve out rebounding, turnovers and missed FTs we're there.

it's 30 games later and we're still not there - that's all I'm saying. Not saying we won't be (as much as you keep intimating that I am), just saying that RIGHT NOW we aren't.

Is there cause for concern? Of course. The rebounding needs work, the untimely fouls by Amare and everyone else need to stop, they need to take care of the ball better, and be more consitent with their outside shooting as well as their defense. These things are FIXABLE. I'm not psychic so I don't know if they'll fix the problem.

I just find it a little odd to point out what an elite team when things can change so quickly ... Just ask the Rockets (McGrady hurts his back and Yao breaks his knee suddenly going from a potential elite to an "also ran" in this conference)

Heck I remember early in the season people were fearful that the Hawks would be good, things changed didn't they?

 

[Cheesebeef]

If you remember, no one here even expected that. But now, even by your post, it sounds like even you believe there is a possibility of getting home court in the playoffs. How does that not make us "elite"?

there are three divisions - someone's gotta win ours.

Elite is a select class - some people may want that net to swing wide, but in reality, it never does. At this point there's two teams - the Spurs and the Mavs - both of which have actually been to the Finals AND as of right now, have the two best records in the league - THAT'S what makes them elite, not to mention the fact that as of right now, they've shown the ability to beat each other and their challengers below them.

again, I measure greatness against greatness at this point of the season - so far, we're 0-fer. Not sure how you measure your team, but that's the way I, and I'd assume anyone else who's competitive and has played sports, measures themselves.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yep, they are and you are absolutely correct. I believe they will translate into W's against good teams later on in the season.

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, I will be skeptical. I'm a show-me guy. I don't believe in blind-faith.