Suns need to find toughness...a little nasty

[Chaplin]

Chap, we don't always agree, but you are by far one of the most popular posters on this board. You don't have the reputation you think you do.

Wow, thanks man. That's a great compliment. I don't necessarily believe you, but it was great.

 

[pokerface]

I hope the smiley was a clear indication that I was poking fun.

It was. I caught it later and knew you were joking around...I laughed when I finally got it.


I was in defense mode...I'm sure you understand

 

[Covert Rain]

Also another thing,

When I have words with one member certain other members feel compelled to join and back up their little buddy. Some people seem to need an army.


Nice secure board we have here

That's because most of us know who the good guys are here. Many of us have had heated debates and flat out disagree with each other on a daily basis. We get over it fast and move on. It's nothing personal. Funny how that works. Then again their are others on the board the make the bed they sleep in.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It was. I caught it later and knew you were joking around...I laughed when I finally got it.


I was in defense mode...I'm sure you understand

I do. We have had some disagreements in the past, but I never hold ill will against any poster here. (well maybe one, but thats another issue altogether)

 

[pokerface]

That's because most of us know who the good guys are here. Many of us have had heated debates and flat out disagree with each other on a daily basis. We get over it fast and move on. It's nothing personal. Funny how that works. Then again their are others on the board the make the bed they sleep in.

Oh "good guys"....Yeah there are good guys and bad guys...no in betweens. More absolutes...more BS.


Well I dont think its a good guy move to to say I insulted someone and try to involve moderaters and then to recant and modify the story later after the pressure becomes too intense for the "good guy". I was having a discussion with someone else then elindholm and his gang had to move in and tell me what they thought of me yet again...repeating themselves (isn't that what they accuse me of?). Doesnt sound like how you state it "we get over it and move on"....


wise up

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh "good guys"....Yeah there are good guys and bad guys...no in betweens. More absolutes...more BS.


Well I dont think its a good guy move to to say I insulted someone and try to involve moderaters and then to recant and modify the story later after the pressure becomes too intense for the "good guy". I was having a discussion with someone else then elindholm and his gang had to move in and tell me what they thought of me yet again...repeating themselves (isn't that what they accuse me of?). Doesnt sound like how you state it "we get over it and move on"....


wise up

Absolutes? 0%? WTH? Dude are you the literal language mod? You keep criticizing everybody who uses language that doesn't meat your standards. I think most of us understand that when someone uses the term 0% chance, its just another way of them saying they strongly don't think there is a chance. Most people don't literally think its actually 0%. The only person hung up on absolutes is you and I think the rest of us all get it. Smell what your shoveling.

 

[kps0001]

Wow, thanks man. That's a great compliment. I don't necessarily believe you, but it was great.

I like your posts and input. I think everyone has their moments were some think "what an idiot" or something to the effect.

I know the only real thing I disagreed with you on back a while was the Channing Frye debate and how I equated him to Loren Woods. I was wrong and now wish the Suns had a chance to bring him in.

Some just take opposing view points to personally. Its just a message board. I like everyones input on here even though I may not agree with it. Most of the time it opens my mind to think differently and sometimes change my opinions.

 

[Chaplin]

I like your posts and input. I think everyone has their moments were some think "what an idiot" or something to the effect.

I know the only real thing I disagreed with you on back a while was the Channing Frye debate and how I equated him to Loren Woods. I was wrong and now wish the Suns had a chance to bring him in.

Some just take opposing view points to personally. Its just a message board. I like everyones input on here even though I may not agree with it. Most of the time it opens my mind to think differently and sometimes change my opinions.

Yeah, I hear ya. Cheese and I are notorious for fighting back and forth--just barely skirting the edge of name-calling, but never going all out. But he'll be the first to say that if we were to get together and watch a game, any arguments we have would be completely forgotten. Same goes for cheesebeef 2, er, I mean his brother Ouchie.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

So... how 'bout those Suns?

Poker, it's obvious that we all have differing opinions about the Suns (mine are probably some of the least popular), but nobody is right or has some sort of superior intellect that allows them to see what exactly is the problem. Nobody knows. The whole point is just to relax and chat about some b-ball.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Interesting that you bring my name up. Yes, we've had differences in the past, but the past few days have seen our views to be pretty similar (when it comes to the draft).

I, like you, am really unpopular on this Suns board because I'm generally considered over-positive about the team. While that may be true, I try to avoid coming on and telling people I know how to debate and discuss better than them.

i found that part of pokerface's post hilarious. Nothing says "I'm a master debater" better than "because I said so!"

 

[azirish]

Nice secure board we have here

I'm not quite sure how this statement is a "winning argument".

 

[JCSunsfan]

Sigh

Well, we were talking about getting tougher. And I suggested getting Artest. I didn't do it because I heard a rumor or I even think that its possible. It just seemed like a good idea to me.

Yeah, I know he's a head case. Could we like, keep him in a cage in the locker room and throw a little meat to him every once-in-a-while? Then when we need him we could bring him out on a leash and let him go for a few minutes.

I'm sure Stern won't suspend him for anything, as long as we keep him on the bench when the mayhem escalates.

 

[Covert Rain]

i found that part of pokerface's post hilarious. Nothing says "I'm a master debater" better than "because I said so!"

 

[elindholm]

Sigh

Well, we were talking about getting tougher. And I suggested getting Artest. I didn't do it because I heard a rumor or I even think that its possible. It just seemed like a good idea to me.

Yeah, I know he's a head case. Could we like, keep him in a cage in the locker room and throw a little meat to him every once-in-a-while? Then when we need him we could bring him out on a leash and let him go for a few minutes.

I'm sure Stern won't suspend him for anything, as long as we keep him on the bench when the mayhem escalates.

I think the problem is that there is a difference between tough and crazy. Artest is the latter. And besides, it doesn't matter whether you actually are tough, but only if the referees think you are tough.

For each player, the only real question to ask is: Will the officials let this person get away with an unusual number of fouls? I think the answer for Artest is clearly "No," so he's useless.

Bowen isn't particularly "tough," but because he can foul with impunity, he has great value in the playoffs. That's the kind of player the Suns need. But part of being that kind of player is being in a situation in which the referees are conditioned to believe that that kind of player is found.

In other words: The Suns don't need thugs. They need to change their image. And that's never going to happen with pipsqueak lineups who care more about scoring than rebounding or interior defense.

 

[azirish]

I think the problem is that there is a difference between tough and crazy. Artest is the latter. And besides, it doesn't matter whether you actually are tough, but only if the referees think you are tough.

For each player, the only real question to ask is: Will the officials let this person get away with an unusual number of fouls? I think the answer for Artest is clearly "No," so he's useless.

Bowen isn't particularly "tough," but because he can foul with impunity, he has great value in the playoffs. That's the kind of player the Suns need. But part of being that kind of player is being in a situation in which the referees are conditioned to believe that that kind of player is found.

In other words: The Suns don't need thugs. They need to change their image. And that's never going to happen with pipsqueak lineups who care more about scoring than rebounding or interior defense.

I agree completely.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think the problem is that there is a difference between tough and crazy. Artest is the latter. And besides, it doesn't matter whether you actually are tough, but only if the referees think you are tough.

For each player, the only real question to ask is: Will the officials let this person get away with an unusual number of fouls? I think the answer for Artest is clearly "No," so he's useless.

Bowen isn't particularly "tough," but because he can foul with impunity, he has great value in the playoffs. That's the kind of player the Suns need. But part of being that kind of player is being in a situation in which the referees are conditioned to believe that that kind of player is found.

In other words: The Suns don't need thugs. They need to change their image. And that's never going to happen with pipsqueak lineups who care more about scoring than rebounding or interior defense.

In this case we need KT on the floor more often. He obviously has a rep for being a quality interior defender with the refs. He got away with some things on Duncan that no one else would have. It helps that he holds his ground and does not leave his feet.

 

[elindholm]

In this case we need KT on the floor more often. He obviously has a rep for being a quality interior defender with the refs. He got away with some things on Duncan that no one else would have. It helps that he holds his ground and does not leave his feet.

Yep.

 

[devilalum]

Who's available that could provide that "Bowen" (or Lambeer, Rambis, Rodman...) for 25 plus minutes a night in the playoffs?

I think you answered your own question.

 

[azirish]

It is frustrating that the Suns players cannot seem to understand that leaving their feet is almost always a mistake (except for weak side blocks).

A good example is the way the Spurs would pump fake their defender into the air and then deliberately jump into the defender. In theory a player is allowed to jump straight up, but without instant replay the refs only see the contact.

 

[pokerface]

Just because a player goes off the deep end deosnt mean he should get branded for life. Spreewell choked his coach and they gave him a second/third chance on other teams and he did quite well.

Artest plays well...no one on here has described in ANY detail as to why he would be a lockerroom cancer. All I hear is vague slurs about him without much detail. Far as teams "being done with him" I believe he is the one who demanded a trade off the Pacers....not them giving him the boot willingly.

The Suns clock is ticking...maybe they know that and thats why Sheed/Prince were given a look. I'd give ANY player a look if it meant a chance at toppling the Spurs. I'd like the Suns to stick it to them at least once in a major way before Timmy retires.

 

[Joe Mama]

I always get weary of anyone talking in absolutes...."like 0% chance"..."no chance" etc etc. How can there be a 0% chance interest in Artest when there was a solid (verified) rumor that the Suns were going for another headcase like Rasheed Wallace? I highly doubt Suns management view Wallace and Artest as polar opposites....they know both guys are hotheads that could be set off. Thats where your opinion seems to differ from Chris Sanders..he was under the distinct impression that the Suns would have no interest in Sheed because of the headcase factor while you're saying he would be a "great fit". One headcase is a great fit while another makes no sense to you....go figure. I think both guys would be a great fit. You "claim" Ron is such a lockerroom cancer but I havn't seen the evidence of that. Who did he have it out with? Enlighten me about the Artest chemistry details to where you think the Suns have a 0% of going for Artest. Other teams seem to have risked it with Ron....he's still in the NBA.


According to many of you before the KG rumors there was a 0% chance of the Suns landing KG. While its true the Suns havn't aquired him I noticed many of you backed off that stance and were entertaining ideas about landing him. Funny how a few rumors make the impossible seem possible huh? Hopefully we get an Artest rumor sometime to open a few minds around here.

Sorry masterdebater, I know I'm really late replying to this post. First thing... unless I missed something Joe Dumars did not confirm that the Phoenix Suns had interest in Wallace. In fact what I got from his statements was that the teams had talked about the possibility of moving Shawn Marion to Detroit, but the Phoenix Suns wanted way too much in return.

Secondly, I've never read anything that I can remember that described Wallace as a locker room cancer like I have about Artest. He's never gone up into the crowd to beat somebody up. He's just not a nut job like Artest. Wallace's problems, as far as I've heard, have to do with his propensity for yelling at referees and picking up technical fouls.

If you want to believe there's a chance the Phoenix Suns would try to get Artest good for you. I still believe there is a 0% chance.

This is also different from the people who did not think the Suns could get Kevin Garnett. At least I'm assuming that was the case since I really don't remember any of those posts. Furthermore I think it's different because what I'm saying is that the Phoenix Suns would not want Artest. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Phoenix Suns wouldn't be interested in KG.

Let me have it masterdebater.

Joe Mama

 

[pokerface]

Secondly, I've never read anything that I can remember that described Wallace as a locker room cancer like I have about Artest. He's never gone up into the crowd to beat somebody up. He's just not a nut job like Artest. Wallace's problems, as far as I've heard, have to do with his propensity for yelling at referees and picking up technical fouls.

How do equate Artest going up in the stands as a lockerroom cancer? Are the lockers up there....were there other players up there? This is the second time I'm asking you now...What evidence have you shown that Artest creates a bad chemistry vibe within the team? Does he cry about no respect like Marion? What rumors have there been where he's had it out with his teammates? If Artest is a lockerroom cancer you must have ample stories to bring up how he's had it out with other teammates. I'm asking you for examples...if I'm wrong I'm wonrg I dont care....so lets hear it.

This is also different from the people who did not think the Suns could get Kevin Garnett. At least I'm assuming that was the case since I really don't remember any of those posts. Furthermore I think it's different because what I'm saying is that the Phoenix Suns would not want Artest. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Phoenix Suns wouldn't be interested in KG.

Well I believe Chris and Chaplin said we would never get Garnett. Chaplin added the Twolves wouldnt trade him out west.

Let me have it masterdebater.

Joe Mama

Ahhh...its nice to be acknowledged!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Artest plays well...no one on here has described in ANY detail as to why he would be a lockerroom cancer. All I hear is vague slurs about him without much detail. Far as teams "being done with him" I believe he is the one who demanded a trade off the Pacers....not them giving him the boot willingly.

right, I'm sure they loved having a guy who wanted a couple months off DURING THE SEASON (and at the beginning of the season no less) because he was tired and wanted to promote his rap album. I'm sure his teamates loved that. That probably created no locker room tension. And I'm sure the feud between he and Bibby makes him beloved by his teamates in Sacto. But yeah, there's no reason to believe he's a locker-room cancer considering that he's been on 3 different teams, all before the age of 28, despite his obvious talent. Maybe he just doesn't use deodorant and smells to high heaven and that's why three teams have constantly shipped his butt elsewhere.

are you serious?

 

[pokerface]

right, I'm sure they loved having a guy who wanted a couple months off DURING THE SEASON (and at the beginning of the season no less) because he was tired and wanted to promote his rap album. I'm sure his teamates loved that. That probably created no locker room tension. And I'm sure the feud between he and Bibby makes him beloved by his teamates in Sacto. But yeah, there's no reason to believe he's a locker-room cancer considering that he's been on 3 different teams, all before the age of 28, despite his obvious talent. Maybe he just doesn't use deodorant and smells to high heaven and that's why three teams have constantly shipped his butt elsewhere.

are you serious?

Jason Kidd had his fueds with teammates in Dallas...Remember the "Three J's" dramas.....Did that make Kidd a lockerroom cancer too? He beat his wife and da da da....I didnt remember lockerroom cancer being muttered about him....hmmm

 

[pokerface]

Besides, if the Suns won a championship with Artest that creates for a happy lockerroom.