Suns out of moves?

[DaMav]

I will admit that I am no fan of Mike D'Antoni, I have all kinds of issues with him, but that is not what this is about. I think his hands are really tied at this point because of the injury situation and the lack of depth.

The Suns have few reserves, and the reserves they have offer nothing different from the players they replace. It is like the Mavericks bringing in Van Horn for Dirk. Van Horn does not change anything up, and he is a poor man's Dirk, so bringing him in does not change the tone or tenor of the game. He may have more impact at center when he tries to shoot the Mavs out of every game.. but I digress...

What I see now is the Mavs have cinched up their defensive responsbilities in each game of the series. Game 1 they clamped down on the perimeter. Game 2 they shut down the lane more. Game 3 they added in the slow-down of the transition game. The problem is the Mavericks are going to continue to do those things until the Suns do something to make them stop doing them. That is where the depth is a problem.

If you had Amare, he could pound the ball inside and FORCE the Mavericks to change their defense, allowing some other openings and changing the complex of the series. The problem is the Suns don't seem to have a move. They seem locked into a corner. They can't just say they need to score more in transition when the Mavs beat them back every play. You can't run back faster down court when the other team is focusing on beating you back and even sacrificing rebounds to do so.

So what do the Suns do? Can they get back in the series? I am a Mavs fan, admittedly, but I don't see what they can do to adjust and have a chance at getting their offense back. If they just want to shoot faster, they will be taking more poor shots, which means the shooting percentage will be sub-par again.

Perhaps I am missing something, but without a significant change to the gameplan the Mavs defense is likely to keep at least a minor grip on the Suns and slow them down. Wanting to score in transition and hit jumpshots is not enough, you have to create an environment where that is possible.

 

[Card Trader]

Not out of moves...just out of players.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I will admit that I am no fan of Mike D'Antoni, I have all kinds of issues with him, but that is not what this is about. I think his hands are really tied at this point because of the injury situation and the lack of depth.

The Suns have few reserves, and the reserves they have offer nothing different from the players they replace. It is like the Mavericks bringing in Van Horn for Dirk. Van Horn does not change anything up, and he is a poor man's Dirk, so bringing him in does not change the tone or tenor of the game. He may have more impact at center when he tries to shoot the Mavs out of every game.. but I digress...

What I see now is the Mavs have cinched up their defensive responsbilities in each game of the series. Game 1 they clamped down on the perimeter. Game 2 they shut down the lane more. Game 3 they added in the slow-down of the transition game. The problem is the Mavericks are going to continue to do those things until the Suns do something to make them stop doing them. That is where the depth is a problem.

If you had Amare, he could pound the ball inside and FORCE the Mavericks to change their defense, allowing some other openings and changing the complex of the series. The problem is the Suns don't seem to have a move. They seem locked into a corner. They can't just say they need to score more in transition when the Mavs beat them back every play. You can't run back faster down court when the other team is focusing on beating you back and even sacrificing rebounds to do so.

So what do the Suns do? Can they get back in the series? I am a Mavs fan, admittedly, but I don't see what they can do to adjust and have a chance at getting their offense back. If they just want to shoot faster, they will be taking more poor shots, which means the shooting percentage will be sub-par again.

Perhaps I am missing something, but without a significant change to the gameplan the Mavs defense is likely to keep at least a minor grip on the Suns and slow them down. Wanting to score in transition and hit jumpshots is not enough, you have to create an environment where that is possible.

Perhaps you are missing something indeed...... When was the last time that you saw Van Horn grab 15 rebounds, or command a double team each time he touched the ball?

 

[Djaughe]

...Wanting to score in transition and hit jumpshots is not enough, you have to create an environment where that is possible.

I agree.

Its no coincidence that when Raja went down the number of steals and forced turnovers dropped off from double digits to single numbers 6(?) in the last game.

I'm hoping that James Jones gets a start over barbosa.

 

[DaMav]

Perhaps you are missing something indeed...... When was the last time that you saw Van Horn grab 15 rebounds, or command a double team each time he touched the ball?

I am pretty sure you missed my point there. When they used to bring Van Horn in for Dirk (which really does not happen much since Van Horn's return), Van Horn was not like a post up board cleaner that changed up the tone of the game from Dirk. He does not do anything Dirk does not do better. That is my point with the Suns. None of their bench players bring anything to the party. They all are just pale imitations of the people they are replacing, just like Van Horn is when he goes in for Dirk.

 

[jbeecham]

Take 3/5ths of your starting lineup off of the floor and see how good your bench players are afterwards. We've promoted our 3 solid bench players (Diaw, TT, Barbosa) to starters and our bench is essentially our 9th & 10th man that would pretty much never see playing time if not for injuries.

Are the Suns out of moves, Yes & No. There are a lot of moves they could try, but probably won't. They could attempt to use Kurt Thomas (whose trying to come back from a broken foot) for defense & rebounding, but he'd have to be guarding Diop or Dampier and they're not exactly scorers, plus he'd probably be a negative on offense. They could throw Amare out there, but that won't happen because D'Antoni is resigned to using the players that got him there. They could try actually making their wide open shots (which is what they are really banking on and hasn't happened since game 1). They could try complaining about the refs like Cuban so the Suns get all the calls for a change, but they like to take the higher road (which gets them no where, maybe eliminated).

 

[Djaughe]

Take 3/5ths of your starting lineup off of the floor and see how good your bench players are afterwards. We've promoted our 3 solid bench players (Diaw, TT, Barbosa) to starters and our bench is essentially our 9th & 10th man that would pretty much never see playing time if not for injuries.

In a roundabout way I think DaMav knows that...hence his question of the Suns being out of moves.

 

[nowagimp]

I am pretty sure you missed my point there. When they used to bring Van Horn in for Dirk (which really does not happen much since Van Horn's return), Van Horn was not like a post up board cleaner that changed up the tone of the game from Dirk. He does not do anything Dirk does not do better. That is my point with the Suns. None of their bench players bring anything to the party. They all are just pale imitations of the people they are replacing, just like Van Horn is when he goes in for Dirk.

What you've missed is that the suns would not have gotten past the lakers or clips without Raja Bell. After the injureis to KT, Bell, the bench is too thin, even the starters(TT's knee, Marions ankle) have injuries worse than Howards "bruised bone". Its really amazing the suns made it to the WCF. Mavs fans should appreciate that their injuries to stack, Harris, Van Horn, Howard happened at the right time during the regualar season, and not the playoffs. With all the suns and spurs "old ball", I used to think that the Mavs could win it this year, but Miami looks very strong at the right time.

 

[elindholm]

DaMav is saying that, from a pure personnel standpoint, the Suns can't throw "anything different" at the Mavericks. He's right. For example, after Game 1, Avery Johnson decided to play Diop a lot more. We can argue about how effective Diop has been, but at least he's been different, so it gives the Suns something else to think about.

The Mavericks know which players the Suns are going to use and (more or less) what those players will be doing. D'Antoni can still try to find ways to make the offense more fluid, maybe free up Barbosa a bit, or get Marion more involved. But overall, there aren't going to be much in the way of surprises from the Suns' side of things.

 

[jbeecham]

The Mavericks know which players the Suns are going to use and (more or less) what those players will be doing. D'Antoni can still try to find ways to make the offense more fluid, maybe free up Barbosa a bit, or get Marion more involved. But overall, there aren't going to be much in the way of surprises from the Suns' side of things.

Good point, even if we threw KT or Grant in the game, they're not shot blockers. The can box out & grab rebounds, but they're probably too slow to guard anyone other than Dampier or Diop (even Diop is quicker). Maybe we should throw Burke out there for 3-4 minutes and let him run around like a chicken with his head cut off and confuse the hell out of the Mavs.

 

[Gaddabout]

I will admit that I am no fan of Mike D'Antoni, I have all kinds of issues with him, but that is not what this is about.

I think this is a very strange opinion for a Mavs fan.

 

[nowagimp]

I think this is a very strange opinion for a Mavs fan.

Agreed, that if you have "all kinds of issues" with another teams coach, you need to loosen up the sphincter a bit.

 

[Mavzy]

They could try complaining about the refs like Cuban so the Suns get all the calls for a change, but they like to take the higher road (which gets them no where, maybe eliminated).

Beecham, You make some vaild points, but I believe that is what DaMav is saying, with all of the Suns injuries their options are limited. Which translates into less move oportunities. I would take slight (not great) exception regarding the refs comment and Dallas getting all of the calls.

Game 1: Fouls Suns=20 Dallas=26
Game 2: Fouls Suns=25 Dallas=11 (ouch)
Game 3: Fouls Suns=16 Dallas=17

With the exception of game 2, which admittedly was very lopsided, Dallas was called for more fouls. The total foul differential for the series is:

Suns=61
Dallas=54

That's only 7 fouls more over a 3 game series. Not a tremendous difference.

 

[Skkorpion]

DaMav is saying that, from a pure personnel standpoint, the Suns can't throw "anything different" at the Mavericks. He's right. For example, after Game 1, Avery Johnson decided to play Diop a lot more. We can argue about how effective Diop has been, but at least he's been different, so it gives the Suns something else to think about.

The Mavericks know which players the Suns are going to use and (more or less) what those players will be doing. D'Antoni can still try to find ways to make the offense more fluid, maybe free up Barbosa a bit, or get Marion more involved. But overall, there aren't going to be much in the way of surprises from the Suns' side of things.

I concur. Dallas just has too many options we don't have. Where DaMav is wrong is in his contempt for D'Antoni. D'Antoni is a fabulous coach.

 

[jbeecham]

Beecham, You make some vaild points, but I believe that is what DaMav is saying, with all of the Suns injuries their options are limited. Which translates into less move oportunities. I would take slight (not great) exception regarding the refs comment and Dallas getting all of the calls.

Game 1: Fouls Suns=20 Dallas=26
Game 2: Fouls Suns=25 Dallas=11 (ouch)
Game 3: Fouls Suns=16 Dallas=17

With the exception of game 2, which admittedly was very lopsided, Dallas was called for more fouls. The total foul differential for the series is:

Suns=61
Dallas=54

That's only 7 fouls more over a 3 game series. Not a tremendous difference.

Game 1 was an abberation of the playoffs. I think it's the 1st time we outshot any team from the ft line so i could understand Mavs fans being upset about that one. Although you still had a 9pt lead in the 4th qtr despite our shooting more FTs. Game 2 was disgusting. Game 3 it seemed like the refs stopped calling fouls and violations against both teams in the 2nd half (Suns had 2 ft's the entire 2nd half). Sometimes it's about what they call, sometimes it's about what they don't call. The Suns still didn't play well enough in Game 3 to win.

 

[Mavzy]

Sometimes it's about what they call, sometimes it's about what they don't call. The Suns still didn't play well enough in Game 3 to win.

I concur!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

In a roundabout way I think DaMav knows that...hence his question of the Suns being out of moves.

It isn't a question. He is trying to make a statement. To what end I can only guess. I still don't understand fans who hang out on other team's message boards.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think this is a very strange opinion for a Mavs fan.

I have seen multiple mavs fans say this. I can't figure it out either.

My guess is because D'Antoni is doing what the Mavs tried to do and doing it better. He has gotten them in back to back Western Conferance Finals, where as the mavs were always second round fodder. So they despise him because he has made the Suns a better looking version of themselves.

 

[DaMav]

I think this is a very strange opinion for a Mavs fan.

Not really.. I could probably list off 20 things that I think marks him as a less than adequate coach. But that would be off-topic, and I probably should have just omitted it.

I would be more than happy to share my reasons why, but past experience tells me it is not well-received by Suns fans, so I decided to just avoid getting into it.

 

[DaMav]

It isn't a question. He is trying to make a statement. To what end I can only guess. I still don't understand fans who hang out on other team's message boards.

To what end? I suppose as a discussion of the game and to try and see if there was something I am missing. From my perspective this thing is pretty locked down unless D'Antoni can find a way to get the Mavericks to change their defense. I am just not willing to accept my own opinion as all-knowing so I thought I would run it by people who are more familar with the Suns then myself.

Injuries are not really relevant here. Nothing you can do about them. Sure they are the reason why he potentially does not have a lot more options, but they play no role in how the rest of the series plays out. You have to make do with what you have... So from that perspective is there anything else that can be done by the Suns or is this for all intents and purposes over.

As a Mavericks fan, I see very little potential for the Mavs going away from what they have done with increasing effectiveness on the defensive end of the floor.

As for why fans would go to other forums? I like a good debate and discussion. I am passionate in my beliefs, support and opinions. Just talking to people who agree with you all the time is not really much intellectual stimulation. I like to see what people on the other side of the fence might think or believe about a series. I find the dichotomy fascinating.

If you guys don't want opponents here, fair enough, I won't post any more. No worries to me. I just think it is hard to ever find the truth via a unified single-sided opinion, regardless of the subject matter.

 

[Gaddabout]

Not really.. I could probably list off 20 things that I think marks him as a less than adequate coach. But that would be off-topic, and I probably should have just omitted it.

I would be more than happy to share my reasons why, but past experience tells me it is not well-received by Suns fans, so I decided to just avoid getting into it.

So what, the Mavs preach defense for one season and you're too good for a running coach like D'Antoni?

I'd be interested in your reasons, but to prevent any collateral damage, probably should just send it to me in a private message.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So what, the Mavs preach defense for one season and you're too good for a running coach like D'Antoni?

I'd be interested in your reasons, but to prevent any collateral damage, probably should just send it to me in a private message.

There wouldn't be any collateral damage as long as they aren't kiddy stuff like:

D'antoni looks like a guy from a porn movie or something rediculous like that. So far I doubt that this particular mavs fan would bother with something so juvenile.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

DaMav,

We have a specially created forum for opposing fans called the Smack Shack. This is where opposing fans can go argue about whatever.

A lot of Suns fans come here because it is a break from boards that are dominated by immature kids who run around on other blogs trying to pick fights.

This board was specifically created to be the antithesis of that.

 

[Evil Ash]

I have seen multiple mavs fans say this. I can't figure it out either.

My guess is because D'Antoni is doing what the Mavs tried to do and doing it better. He has gotten them in back to back Western Conferance Finals, where as the mavs were always second round fodder. So they despise him because he has made the Suns a better looking version of themselves.

The real reason for contempt ... Suns in 6 last year.

 

[nowagimp]

Not really.. I could probably list off 20 things that I think marks him as a less than adequate coach. But that would be off-topic, and I probably should have just omitted it.

I would be more than happy to share my reasons why, but past experience tells me it is not well-received by Suns fans, so I decided to just avoid getting into it.

And my past experience tells me that it is VERY UNLIKELY that a casual fan could tell a COY winner how to coach basketball in the NBA, but alternately, it is very likely that such a fan thinks he knows more than a top NBA coach.