Suns @ Pacers Saturday game thread 1-9-2021

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Embiid is putting up MVP like numbers on more than 5 shots a game. Gobert is averaging 9.1 attempts. Im not sure who you are referring to but the top 15 scoring c's all average more than 5 fg attempts.

You must be registered for see images attach

there is your problem

 

[Cheesebeef]

there is your problem

Gobert is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Embiid is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Hell, even Clint Capella is averaging over 5 shots per game.

I could go on and on here.

I feel like a certain contingent of fans would prefer him to aimlessly barrel into defenders like their archetypal TOUGH GUY from the 80s and 90s when their child like impressions of right and wrong were formed.

what you feel and what actually is are two very different things. The idea that we just want to see Ayton back to the his rookie year level of offensive play as somehow being stupid is truly bizarre.

I prefer smart over stupid.

there's nothing smart about taking yourself completely out of plays catching the ball at the top of the key. There's nothing smart about bringing the ball down which Ayton does repeatedly when he either gets the ball in perfect position to score. And there's nothing smart about a 7 footer who just routinely gets stuffed at the rim because he puts up a weak layup attempt instead of going up strong.

Akeem wasn't a "tough guy". David Robinson wasn't a "tough guy". Tim Duncan wasn't a "tough guy". Ayton has the skills to be that guy and instead of playing like Clint Capella on offense. No one wants Ayton to be Shaq. That's just a straw man argument you've created because you have none to actually make re: his offense.

 

[gimpy]

I haven't watch much of th he Suns, especially now that I don't have Fox Sports. You said he routinely gets stuffed at the rim? That true?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He’s 22 years old. He’s two years younger than Mikal. If I were to take a guess based on his play and some of his recent statements, as well as my admittedly armchair observations at home watching him, it seems as if he has been hit with a rather bizarre career trajectory:

1. Rookie year, #1 pick, local kid, massive expectations, very little in the way of actual basketball training, and on a complete dumpster fire of a team. He puts up 16 and 10 on very good efficiency, but is AWFUL at defense. Team is AWFUL
2. Second season, presumably hears a lot about how bad his defense was, what a mistake he was as a pick as opposed to Luka, and works hard to become a better defender (this isn’t easy mentally on anyone much less a 21 y/o kid), and comes out absolutely cooking (18/11/4blk just controlling the paint) and dominant against Kings in a blowout win. Team added a good PG finally in RR and has some expectations to fight for a playoff spot. Then he gets hit with 25 game suspension. Completely throws the rudders off. Then he gets to watch as the team plays amazing without him (for a bit), and is still in the chase for playoff spot when he returns. Again, the rudders are off and he is improved at defense but the team kinda waffles until the shutdown.
3. The Bubble. Solid play, defensively particularly, but unspectacular. Yet, the team goes 8-0. Interesting.
4. Year 3. Massive expectations. CP3 in (a demanding cat, no?), Jae coming off Finals’ experience. More guys yelling at him to be there now, no, NOW! No, not there! Rotate! Switch! Dive! DO SOMETHING!! It is all a bit overwhelming for a 22 year old kid that has only really had one season of basketball and even that was on a joke team with a joke roster.

What I mean to say is that he has absolutely an unfinished product. He is A LOT more raw than Luka even though he’s older in life years. I think he is showing signs of polish: he passes well, he defends at key moments against top players without fouling, he hunts the boards at key moments. He is learning what it takes to win. He is fitting into a team with better offensive players than him. He is becoming a winner. I think he has the makings of a championship pedigree and I wouldn’t mistake his inaction for laziness but rather system overload. Let him have some time to catch up with his third PG in three years.

I’ll be honest what I just read was a lot of excuses. I don’t see those as reasons.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How quickly we forget Alex 'Stone Hands' Len

And I had done so happily. Thanks a lot!

 

[Hoop Head]

there is your problem

There are 35 centers averaging more than 5 shots a game. Who is this vaunted second best center who averaged less? You made the claim, back it up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

When you're right at the basket and seven feet tall, dunking instead of babying out with a soft layup is smart.

Particularly when you miss the gimme and then miss both free throws to boot. Soft as possible offensively.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There are 35 centers averaging more than 5 shots a game. Who is this vaunted second best center who averaged less? You made the claim, back it up.

He means Ayton

 

[Mainstreet]

I suppose if someone could download the pdf they could get an approximate measure of Ayton's hand size.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawi...cle_4ffd3a18-d230-11e8-a694-ab094ab63dac.html

 

[Raze]

Two things can be true at once:

1. Ayton needs to be more aggressive on offense.
2. Ayton needs the offense to get him more touches.

Oh and one more true statement:

3. We're in first place in spite of those two things.

Right now we have a top 5 O and a top 5 D. How much of that top 5 D is because Ayton has set his entire focus on dominating D?

And that's all Ayton seems to want to talk about any more (and Paul, and Book, and Monty...). The guy was naturally talented on O when he came into the league and was a liability on D. In spite of that, he's made his weakness his strength all to the benefit of his team. And this honestly comes at his own expense (as everyone continues to bag on him for not scoring more). The guy is putting his team first and is playing GREAT D.

At one point last night I was begging for Monty to put Ayton back in when Sabonis started going off. Dario and Jay were getting absolutely lit up by him. I then had to pause and realize... Holy cow... Ayton is a defensive stopper now. And sure enough, he did just that. We crushed that team the second DA was glued to Sabonis.

This is what we should focus on. Ayton is playing team ball. And we're in first place.

 

[1Sun]

Two things can be true at once:

1. Ayton needs to be more aggressive on offense.
2. Ayton needs the offense to get him more touches.

Oh and one more true statement:

3. We're in first place in spite of those two things.

Right now we have a top 5 O and a top 5 D. How much of that top 5 D is because Ayton has set his entire focus on dominating D?

And that's all Ayton seems to want to talk about any more (and Paul, and Book, and Monty...). The guy was naturally talented on O when he came into the league and was a liability on D. In spite of that, he's made his weakness his strength all to the benefit of his team. And this honestly comes at his own expense (as everyone continues to bag on him for not scoring more). The guy is putting his team first and is playing GREAT D.

At one point last night I was begging for Monty to put Ayton back in when Sabonis started going off. Dario and Jay were getting absolutely lit up by him. I then had to pause and realize... Holy cow... Ayton is a defensive stopper now. And sure enough, he did just that. We crushed that team the second DA was glued to Sabonis.

This is what we should focus on. Ayton is playing team ball. And we're in first place.

He just needs to put the same level of effort and intensity on offense that he does on defense. Who'd have ever thought that needed to be said?

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

There are 35 centers averaging more than 5 shots a game. Who is this vaunted second best center who averaged less? You made the claim, back it up.

I was sorting by WS. It’s probably not optimal but it’s better than lolPPG.

Jarrett Allen.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

He just needs to put the same level of effort and intensity on offense that he does on defense. Who'd have ever thought that needed to be said?

nobody has endless energy reserves
I prefer he continues to leverage his energy and ability in the manner he has thus far (making us a top4 team itl and legit title contender) than trying to do EVERYTHING to appease dumb fans that keep crying thru all the winning

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Two things can be true at once:

1. Ayton needs to be more aggressive on offense.
2. Ayton needs the offense to get him more touches.

Oh and one more true statement:

3. We're in first place in spite of those two things.

Right now we have a top 5 O and a top 5 D. How much of that top 5 D is because Ayton has set his entire focus on dominating D?

And that's all Ayton seems to want to talk about any more (and Paul, and Book, and Monty...). The guy was naturally talented on O when he came into the league and was a liability on D. In spite of that, he's made his weakness his strength all to the benefit of his team. And this honestly comes at his own expense (as everyone continues to bag on him for not scoring more). The guy is putting his team first and is playing GREAT D.

At one point last night I was begging for Monty to put Ayton back in when Sabonis started going off. Dario and Jay were getting absolutely lit up by him. I then had to pause and realize... Holy cow... Ayton is a defensive stopper now. And sure enough, he did just that. We crushed that team the second DA was glued to Sabonis.

This is what we should focus on. Ayton is playing team ball. And we're in first place.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I would rather Cam and Mikal keep shooting than force feeding Ayton so he can get his. The offense is 4th right now. It’s working. Really well. Even though Paul has been shooting unusually poorly, and Booker has been a turnover box much of the year.

IF IT AINT BROKE

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Gobert is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Embiid is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Hell, even Clint Capella is averaging over 5 shots per game.

I could go on and on here.



what you feel and what actually is are two very different things. The idea that we just want to see Ayton back to the his rookie year level of offensive play as somehow being stupid is truly bizarre.



there's nothing smart about taking yourself completely out of plays catching the ball at the top of the key. There's nothing smart about bringing the ball down which Ayton does repeatedly when he either gets the ball in perfect position to score. And there's nothing smart about a 7 footer who just routinely gets stuffed at the rim because he puts up a weak layup attempt instead of going up strong.

Akeem wasn't a "tough guy". David Robinson wasn't a "tough guy". Tim Duncan wasn't a "tough guy". Ayton has the skills to be that guy and instead of playing like Clint Capella on offense. No one wants Ayton to be Shaq. That's just a straw man argument you've created because you have none to actually make re: his offense.

You assume two things here, both fatal to your argument:
1. That the offense would be better if Ayton “went back to his rookie year” play (really just a lot of looting in a riot), as opposed to our #4 ranked offense (with subpar play from CP and DB) that is working extremely well exactly as it is being deployed.
2. That there wouldn’t be a concomitant drop off in his defense if he went back to the level of offensive play...in the year that he was...awful at defense at the most important defensive position by far. Energy is a thing. Fans who never played sports think guys never have to ramp it down; they’re dumb.

 

[1Sun]

nobody has endless energy reserves
I prefer he continues to leverage his energy and ability in the manner he has thus far (making us a top4 team itl and legit title contender) than trying to do EVERYTHING to appease dumb fans that keep crying thru all the winning

That's still no excuse to be as soft and passive as he is on offense. He doesn't need to be a scoring machine or dominate on the offensive end. He just needs not to be Alex Len there.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

That's still no excuse to be as soft and passive as he is on offense. He doesn't need to be a scoring machine or dominate on the offensive end. He just needs not to be Alex Len there.

Alex Len never averaged more than 9ppg and was never close to the passer or gravitational force or offensive rebounder or a hundred other things that Ayton is on offense. If he “just” needs to not be Len then why are you complaining?

 

[1Sun]

Alex Len never averaged more than 9ppg and was never close to the passer or gravitational force or offensive rebounder or a hundred other things that Ayton is on offense. If he “just” needs to not be Len then why are you complaining?

Because he has been playing with Len's level of passivity and with Len's fumbling hands.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I don’t care if he has Len’s quizzical expression. We are winning and he’s a massive reason why.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You assume two things here, both fatal to your argument:
1. That the offense would be better if Ayton “went back to his rookie year” play (really just a lot of looting in a riot), as opposed to our #4 ranked offense (with subpar play from CP and DB) that is working extremely well exactly as it is being deployed.
2. That there wouldn’t be a concomitant drop off in his defense if he went back to the level of offensive play...in the year that he was...awful at defense at the most important defensive position by far. Energy is a thing. Fans who never played sports think guys never have to ramp it down; they’re dumb.

1. i think once the playoffs come and you don’t have the ability to adjust or have a multitude of options on offense, you ain’t winning a title. And if Ayton DID provide that, I think we’d be a legit title contender. Right now... I think we’re a tier below that.

2. Ayton should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. The idea that he can’t be a defensive and offensive force, or merely an GOOD option on offensive is just dumb and sets the bar too low for someone with his natural talent. The question is he does he have the desire to do that.

without him being a solid piece of the offense, I just don’t see this team realistically challenging for a title. Playoffs, sure. But I think there is actually potential for more if Ayton reached more of his.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was sorting by WS. It’s probably not optimal but it’s better than lolPPG.

Jarrett Allen.

Dude stop. That’s just silly.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

nobody has endless energy reserves
I prefer he continues to leverage his energy and ability in the manner he has thus far (making us a top4 team itl and legit title contender) than trying to do EVERYTHING to appease dumb fans that keep crying thru all the winning

Another excuse.

and poor form for the board again. Lame.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

1. i think once the playoffs come and you don’t have the ability to adjust or have a multitude of options on offense, you ain’t winning a title. And if Ayton DID provide that, I think we’d be a legit title contender. Right now... I think we’re a tier below that.

2. Ayton should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. The idea that he can’t be a defensive and offensive force, or merely an GOOD option on offensive is just dumb and sets the bar too low for someone with his natural talent. The question is he does he have the desire to do that.

without him being a solid piece of the offense, I just don’t see this team realistically challenging for a title. Playoffs, sure. But I think there is actually potential for more if Ayton reached more of his.

First, playoff basketball is definitely a different animal and the Suns seem built for it. We play very much of a half court style game with our league slowest pace. Booker, when he’s on, is an elite half court option. We have excellent shooting on the wings and we have a rim presence that has to be respected in DA. Chris Paul has loads of experience and will be a steady hand. We also defend at a high level.

We clearly have a multitude of options on offense: we have 7 guys averaging double figures in scoring! Cam and Mikal are showing signs of dribble drive ability and CP15 is a guy that can get a bucket. Hell Galloway and Crowder can sneak up on you and score 20 if you’re not looking.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Another excuse.

and poor form for the board again. Lame.

I seriously believe people will complain here if Ayton passes out to a shooter to win a playoff game. Those folks are lame and I’m not letting it slide for decorum’s sake. Sometimes children need discipline.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I would rather Cam and Mikal keep shooting than force feeding Ayton so he can get his. The offense is 4th right now. It’s working. Really well. Even though Paul has been shooting unusually poorly, and Booker has been a turnover box much of the year.

IF IT AINT BROKE

What you’re missing is what happens when the threes aren’t falling? Like Detroit. That’s when you would like to be able to feed what should be a beast in the post. I truly get the feeling that you think we’ve arrived. Like we are the champions. Creating maximum flexibility both defensively and offensively should be our goal. How do you stop a team that can rain threes and has an unstoppable force near the basket? You can’t. But you seem to want to settle for less.