Suns Press conference today. 07/16/19

[TJ]

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Hmm. I haven't watched this in a while. Ayton as a perimeter defender.

Don’t watch the Buffalo game if you want to see Ayton’s perimeter defense.

But, yes. He can protect the rim just fine

 

[Rab]

Someone asked about his contract: amount?, teams interested, offers, etc. Basically said he can't talk about that.

That was Doug Franz from Doug and Wolf. What awful question he asked but I don’t expect much from him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hoop Head]

I can see the Suns trying to run a defense similar to Boston's last year. Good perimeter defense with a big body that plays physical inside so if someone makes it in the paint for a bucket they think twice about doing so again because Ayton/Baynes will make them earn it. That's what Baynes did in Boston and it worked well for them. I could see it working here also if you compare personnel.


As defenders....

Rubio > Kyrie
Booker < Jaylen Brown
Oubre > Jayson Tatum
Saric > Marcus Morris
Ayton < Horford - mainly because Horford is so experienced and savvy at this point in his career but Ayton has a lot more size and bulk to toss around.

I'd call Saric and Morris a push but I gave the edge to Saric because I gave the edge to Horford over Ayton in another comparison that could have been a push.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Rubio is better than Kyrie. I'd rather have Kyrie and so would 30 other NBA GM's but when comparing their defense, Rubio is a much better defender than Kyrie is.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can see the Suns trying to run a defense similar to Boston's last year. Good perimeter defense with a big body that plays physical inside so if someone makes it in the paint for a bucket they think twice about doing so again because Ayton/Baynes will make them earn it. That's what Baynes did in Boston and it worked well for them. I could see it working here also if you compare personnel.


As defenders....

Rubio > Kyrie
Booker < Jaylen Brown
Oubre > Jayson Tatum
Saric > Marcus Morris
Ayton < Horford - mainly because Horford is so experienced and savvy at this point in his career but Ayton has a lot more size and bulk to toss around.

I'd call Saric and Morris a push but I gave the edge to Saric because I gave the edge to Horford over Ayton in another comparison that could have been a push.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Rubio is better than Kyrie. I'd rather have Kyrie and so would 30 other NBA GM's but when comparing their defense, Rubio is a much better defender than Kyrie is.

I believe Horford has long been considered an excellent defender. Ayton has a long ways to even be comparable much less a push imo. And I doubt saric is better than Morris.

 

[Hoop Head]

I believe Horford has long been considered an excellent defender. Ayton has a long ways to even be comparable much less a push imo. And I doubt saric is better than Morris.

Horford is a good team defender but not a rim protector. I think that's the most we can hope for from Ayton. Ayton isn't going to be a great shot blocker, or even a good one, but I think he showed later in the year when he was put on Lebron or Giannis that he could play some solid D on them. If Monty can install a good defensive scheme for the team, with Ayton picking guys up at a certain point then I think he could work well in the team defense scenario also.

That was also a knock on Horford and the Celtics for his time there, they didn't have any real rim protection. Their rim protection was keeping guys from the rim. Horford did not defend like your typical Center. I concede Horford is a better defender than Ayton is now but he's also a 12 year vet or something. He's been in the league a long time and has learned a lot of tricks that Ayton will with time.

My main point was how Boston played good D without a rim protector and Horford involved or not, they didn't have one and that's probably how we'll look next season unless Ayton spends the entire summer picking Mutombo's brain and applying all he learned.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Horford is a good team defender but not a rim protector. I think that's the most we can hope for from Ayton. Ayton isn't going to be a great shot blocker, or even a good one, but I think he showed later in the year when he was put on Lebron or Giannis that he could play some solid D on them. If Monty can install a good defensive scheme for the team, with Ayton picking guys up at a certain point then I think he could work well in the team defense scenario also.

That was also a knock on Horford and the Celtics for his time there, they didn't have any real rim protection. Their rim protection was keeping guys from the rim. Horford did not defend like your typical Center. I concede Horford is a better defender than Ayton is now but he's also a 12 year vet or something. He's been in the league a long time and has learned a lot of tricks that Ayton will with time.

My main point was how Boston played good D without a rim protector and Horford involved or not, they didn't have one and that's probably how we'll look next season unless Ayton spends the entire summer picking Mutombo's brain and applying all he learned.

What we saw from Ayton is that he can be a very good one on one defender but he seems to have great difficulty in a team defensive scheme. He really struggles with switching and rim defense when it is not his man going to the rim. He can be a good shot blocker but he has to learn team defense. I do think it is possible to learn this, it is not just about talent or natural inclination. I just do not know if HE will learn it.

 

[95pro]

Ayton's a good defender when he's on the ball or switching on to the ball, bad when it comes help defense and at post up defense. He doesn't seem to block anything while rotating for help defense or when someone posts up on him. The rotations should be tightened up a bit with our roster not having to play out of position this year.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I would like to point out that we are basing these things on one year of playing out of position in college and 1 year of having poor coaching in the NBA. I would like to see how he looks with some solid NBA coaching and a little more time to acclimate to the NBA game before I start suggesting he can never do this or that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Horford is a good team defender but not a rim protector. I think that's the most we can hope for from Ayton. Ayton isn't going to be a great shot blocker, or even a good one, but I think he showed later in the year when he was put on Lebron or Giannis that he could play some solid D on them. If Monty can install a good defensive scheme for the team, with Ayton picking guys up at a certain point then I think he could work well in the team defense scenario also.

That was also a knock on Horford and the Celtics for his time there, they didn't have any real rim protection. Their rim protection was keeping guys from the rim. Horford did not defend like your typical Center. I concede Horford is a better defender than Ayton is now but he's also a 12 year vet or something. He's been in the league a long time and has learned a lot of tricks that Ayton will with time.

My main point was how Boston played good D without a rim protector and Horford involved or not, they didn't have one and that's probably how we'll look next season unless Ayton spends the entire summer picking Mutombo's brain and applying all he learned.

I’ll agree with most of what you state. Where I think I diverge a bit is in terms of post defense. I think Ayton was surprisingly good in space as a defender (as you pointed out with LeBron and giannis) buy I think he struggled in the post against big string guys. And Horford excels there from my memory.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would like to point out that we are basing these things on one year of playing out of position in college and 1 year of having poor coaching in the NBA. I would like to see how he looks with some solid NBA coaching and a little more time to acclimate to the NBA game before I start suggesting he can never do this or that.

Absolutely correct. But we can only comment on what’s actually occurred. Anything else is 100% pure conjecture.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Absolutely correct. But we can only comment on what’s actually occurred. Anything else is 100% pure conjecture.

I'm not talking about what he is or isn't good at, but comments that suggest he can never be good at something. For instance saying he will never be a good shot blocker. Maybe the odds aren't great that he will be, but it is way too early say never just yet. If he makes major improvements in that area in his 2nd season I think it would suddenly become fair to say that he might end being a good shot blocker. There is certainly nothing physical keeping him from being good at that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would like to point out that we are basing these things on one year of playing out of position in college and 1 year of having poor coaching in the NBA. I would like to see how he looks with some solid NBA coaching and a little more time to acclimate to the NBA game before I start suggesting he can never do this or that.

That is the hope--that this is about coaching and not about the player himself.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I’ll agree with most of what you state. Where I think I diverge a bit is in terms of post defense. I think Ayton was surprisingly good in space as a defender (as you pointed out with LeBron and giannis) buy I think he struggled in the post against big string guys. And Horford excels there from my memory.

That is a correct observation. Ayton seems to get "into" defending more mobile players--pf's and mobile centers. He had real problems with the big low post players, and we had no one else on the roster who could handle those players either.

That makes the Baynes acquisition interesting. He seems to thrive on that physical post defense. There could be a two-fold benefit. He can defend those types of players when Ayton is struggling and maybe he can help teach Ayton how to do it. I think the former is a guarantee. I am skeptical about the latter.

 

[Hoop Head]

I’ll agree with most of what you state. Where I think I diverge a bit is in terms of post defense. I think Ayton was surprisingly good in space as a defender (as you pointed out with LeBron and giannis) buy I think he struggled in the post against big string guys. And Horford excels there from my memory.

I don't recall him playing much defense in the post but it wouldn't surprise me to learn he has problems there since he had problems gaining position in the post on the offensive end. He has a lot to learn when it comes to post play.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm at a loss for words regarding the defensive conversation going on.

1. Ayton is a horrible help and weak side defender. he has the lateral quickness to guard his man but abhorrent spacial awareness or recognition when playing off ball or coming to help.

2. Rubio is a good man for steals and transition defense..... he is a HORRIBLE man on man half-court defender.

3. Booker is our version of Harden. Offensively & Defensively.

4. Oubre is a solid if unspectacular defender. he can get the job done if properly motivated.

5. Bridges is a very good defender who is still learning to be a great defender.

6. Saric is a horrible defender. Like..... profoundly bad if we start him at the 4.


If our starting lineup is not a bottom 10 defense in the league I will be shocked. I am prepared for a bottom 5 defense and a bottom 15 offense. 23 to 27 wins is my range for us.

Remember: We were 15th (last) in the west last year and 14 games from the 14th seed. 29 games back of the 8 seed.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think having Baynes to practice with Ayton will help his progression. He dealt with Holmes last season and Holmes is a decent backup but he was also smaller than Ayton, slower, and weaker. Baynes is slower but he's got more size and strength. He'll be a handful for Ayton physically and Ayton will also need to learn to score on him. His speed and agility will help but Baynes will learn his go to moves and stop him sooner than later. Baynes is a vet that has been around the block while Holmes was a 3rd string big that didn't see much floor time in Philly and I doubt he saw a lot of practice time either.

Jones talked up the Baynes acquisition specifically in regards to how that will help Ayton in practice and I hope that's true. A smart coach like Monty should be able to make that work. Monty will also be able to throw Saric and Kaminsky on him to change it up some. He's practiced and coached with Embiid and Anthony Davis, he knows today's bigs. Saric has practiced alongside Embiid and KAT so he's familiar with Monty will be trying to teach Ayton.

I think, and hope, that we see a huge leap in Ayton's play this year. I hope he can start shredding that soft label also. He doesn't need to be a beast but to see him go into beast mode a few times would be nice. I can only recall one game last year when he did that, the Orlando overtime that he dominated. I'm pretty sure that was against Orlando but I know it was the entirety of overtime.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm at a loss for words regarding the defensive conversation going on.

1. Ayton is a horrible help and weak side defender. he has the lateral quickness to guard his man but abhorrent spacial awareness or recognition when playing off ball or coming to help.

2. Rubio is a good man for steals and transition defense..... he is a HORRIBLE man on man half-court defender.

3. Booker is our version of Harden. Offensively & Defensively.

4. Oubre is a solid if unspectacular defender. he can get the job done if properly motivated.

5. Bridges is a very good defender who is still learning to be a great defender.

6. Saric is a horrible defender. Like..... profoundly bad if we start him at the 4.


If our starting lineup is not a bottom 10 defense in the league I will be shocked. I am prepared for a bottom 5 defense and a bottom 15 offense. 23 to 27 wins is my range for us.

Remember: We were 15th (last) in the west last year and 14 games from the 14th seed. 29 games back of the 8 seed.

I take issue with your use of the word horrible. While the weaknesses you mentioned are legit, "horrible" is an exaggeration.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm at a loss for words regarding the defensive conversation going on.

1. Ayton is a horrible help and weak side defender. he has the lateral quickness to guard his man but abhorrent spacial awareness or recognition when playing off ball or coming to help.

2. Rubio is a good man for steals and transition defense..... he is a HORRIBLE man on man half-court defender.

3. Booker is our version of Harden. Offensively & Defensively.

4. Oubre is a solid if unspectacular defender. he can get the job done if properly motivated.

5. Bridges is a very good defender who is still learning to be a great defender.

6. Saric is a horrible defender. Like..... profoundly bad if we start him at the 4.


If our starting lineup is not a bottom 10 defense in the league I will be shocked. I am prepared for a bottom 5 defense and a bottom 15 offense. 23 to 27 wins is my range for us.

Remember: We were 15th (last) in the west last year and 14 games from the 14th seed. 29 games back of the 8 seed.

The Suns were 6-6 in games that Oubre started before he was benched so he could have surgery on his hand. In those 6 wins, 2 came against the Warriors and Bucks who had the best record in their conferences at the time. Oubre was sat after that 12 game stretch with his own hand injury that cost him the remainder of the season and 2 games before Oubre was sat, Tyler Johnson was sat for the remainder of the season with an injury as well. They each had surgery so they definitely had injuries but the severity of their injuries can be questioned since neither showed signs of their injuries in the previous games. Once they were pulled, the Suns tank went full speed ahead.

The Suns sucked, I'm not debating that. However that final month of the season it can be questioned if they tanked or not. After sitting Johnson for the final 13 games and Oubre for the final 11 they sat Ayton for the final 5 and Booker for the final 3. Neither Booker or Ayton had surgery. Those 2 were sat for tank purposes and if you watched toward the end of the year it was pretty obvious.

They weren't a good team though. I'm not saying they were, but their record doesn't tell the entire story. Since they added 2 starters late in the season and ditched some dead weight, it took some time to develop chemistry amongst those left. Johnson was a big acquisition since it allowed Booker to move back to SG and get healthy, finally, for the first time all season. Once Booker was healthy and everyone was familiar with each other, they had their season cut short with the surgeries for Oubre and Tyler Johnson in the middle of March.

After that stretch of 6-6, they went 2-9 without Johnson and Oubre. So trying to use their full season record and comparing it to others in the West doesn't accurately portray what the players you mentioned can do.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I take issue with your use of the word horrible. While the weaknesses you mentioned are legit, "horrible" is an exaggeration.

We also need to see what Monty can bring as a coach because a well coached team can absolutely outperform their individual talent on either side of the ball. That's not to say that it would make us a good defense, but it could allow us to be somewhat average instead of being very bad.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I take issue with your use of the word horrible. While the weaknesses you mentioned are legit, "horrible" is an exaggeration.

Deandre Ayton is a horrible defender. Like downright bad in most ways.

Advanced Stats:

• He was the 3rd worst center in the NBA for total defensive rating. Alex Len & Robin Lopez were 1 &2. LOL
• 5th worst in block percentage.
• Bottom 8 in blocks per 48.
• Bottom 9 in blocks per PF.
• Middle of the pack (22nd) in blocks per game.

Beyond the stats, he has never fully grasped help defense in a way that could ever make anyone be able to project him into the top half of NBA Centers. With his physical tools, he does get in the way sometimes, but it almost seems more by coincidence than actual design.

He was very bad in College. And was very bad his rookie year. This is really not debatable.

This is like trying to fix a Quarterbacks accuracy. Sure you can jiggle around with footwork, but some stuff is just innate and god give. Deandre Ayton DOES...... NOT...... HAVE....... IT.

 

[Dr. Jones]

FYI: Devin Booker and Tyler Johnson were 4th and 5th worst IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in defensive rating. Saric was 24th worst. Atleast Ayton & Oubre were in the bottom 35% of the league. Booker & Johnson were bottom 1%. Saric bottom 10%.

This team will not be hanging their hat on defense. Monty can't change that folks.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

FYI: Devin Booker and Tyler Johnson were 4th and 5th worst IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in defensive rating. Saric was 24th worst. Atleast Ayton & Oubre were in the bottom 35% of the league. Booker & Johnson were bottom 1%. Saric bottom 10%.

This team will not be hanging their hat on defense. Monty can't change that folks.

Has anyone suggested they will do this?

 

[Chaplin]

FYI: Devin Booker and Tyler Johnson were 4th and 5th worst IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in defensive rating. Saric was 24th worst. Atleast Ayton & Oubre were in the bottom 35% of the league. Booker & Johnson were bottom 1%. Saric bottom 10%.

This team will not be hanging their hat on defense. Monty can't change that folks.

Other than you're penchant to lecture and talk down to all of us, who has suggested we would be a defensive juggernaut? You don't like the team as constructed, we get it. It can be argued how much exaggeration you are using, but outside of that, there isn't much point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not talking about what he is or isn't good at, but comments that suggest he can never be good at something. For instance saying he will never be a good shot blocker. Maybe the odds aren't great that he will be, but it is way too early say never just yet. If he makes major improvements in that area in his 2nd season I think it would suddenly become fair to say that he might end being a good shot blocker. There is certainly nothing physical keeping him from being good at that.

Hmm haven’t seen a single poster say “never” in regards to his shotblocking potential.

 

[Hoop Head]

FYI: Devin Booker and Tyler Johnson were 4th and 5th worst IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in defensive rating. Saric was 24th worst. Atleast Ayton & Oubre were in the bottom 35% of the league. Booker & Johnson were bottom 1%. Saric bottom 10%.

This team will not be hanging their hat on defense. Monty can't change that folks.

Where are you getting those stats? I'm not showing the same thing on Basketball-Reference. Booker is low but Tyler Johnson is middle of the league. #296 of 530, Ayton #390, Saric is #395, and Oubre 362.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranks Johnson 104 out of 183, Ayton was 85th, Oubre 139th, and Saric 149 of 183. So again, not as bad as you say and different enough that I question where you're pulling those numbers from.