Suns pursuing Iman Shumpert

[HooverDam]

You're letting those little numbers deceive you because PJ is surrounded by piss-poor defenders which renders those kind of stats meaningless. When this team is focused and competitive, Tucker is incredible. I can't honestly say he gives it his all every night but seriously, who would given the lack of defensive focus our team plays with?

Steve

Uh no. Advanced stats are advanced because they can factor in things like playing time, lineups, etc.


Like I said before we'll have to agree to disagree on Tucker, you're not really backing up anything you say with anything but opinion. He's a fine player but not a tremendous asset.

Zeller could be used instead of PJ in the deal I outlined before but I'm not 100% sure they'd go for it. I listed PJ because it made the deal seem more likely.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just listened to part of interview with Lance Blanks on local 620 AM radio. He says the Suns are not anticipating a trade before the trade deadline. Of course there is always the caveat of an exception.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Uh no. Advanced stats are advanced because they can factor in things like playing time, lineups, etc.


Like I said before we'll have to agree to disagree on Tucker, you're not really backing up anything you say with anything but opinion. He's a fine player but not a tremendous asset.

Zeller could be used instead of PJ in the deal I outlined before but I'm not 100% sure they'd go for it. I listed PJ because it made the deal seem more likely.

Well, that is certainly true. I can't give you anything but my opinion. I guess I could look up advanced stats too but seeing as I find them irrelevant more often than not I see no reason to go there.

I watch the Suns play every game and in my opinion, Tucker should be the last player considered as filler for a trade. Again, I'm not saying he's untradable but if I were looking to acquire someone from the Suns he would be the number one or number two target on my list. If he is traded alongside Dudley I'd hope that Dudley was the filler as he has nowhere near the impact on the game that Tucker has, IMO.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Al Jefferson is basically a black Luis Scola.

That's complete nonsense. Jefferson is someone that any defense has to pay serious attention to. If he doesn't have the best low post game in the league, he's very close. Scola overcomes a severe athleticism deficit to score on guile and experience.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's complete nonsense. Jefferson is someone that any defense has to pay serious attention to. If he doesn't have the best low post game in the league, he's very close. Scola overcomes a severe athleticism deficit to score on guile and experience.

I like your assessment. I believe it to be correct. This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Scola.

 

[hcsilla]

That's complete nonsense. Jefferson is someone that any defense has to pay serious attention to. If he doesn't have the best low post game in the league, he's very close. Scola overcomes a severe athleticism deficit to score on guile and experience.

Actually, as much as surprising slinslins' statement is, he is not that far away from being correct.

Jefferson is bigger, longer and more athletic than Scola (which BTW, isn't saying too much). I'm not sure that he is more skilled or a better shooter as well.

In other words, if the Suns wanna rebuild, probably Jefferson is one of the last players that they want to rebuild around (I know that you were referring only to the comparison between Scola and Jefferson).

But the point is: does indeed Jefferson bring so much more on the table than Scola does? I have serious doubts.

 

[Phrazbit]

Jefferson is a much better player than Scola. Jefferson is like a poor man's Zach Randolph, while Scola is an inconsistent, below average, older player. He shows guile here and there and has some nice offensive nights, but given how inconsistent he is on offense and how consistently bad he is on defense; over the long haul you're getting a net negative from his position.

However, Jefferson is also not a player we should build around. I dont know what he is going to make this summer as a free agent but I know I sure as hell dont want the Suns to be the ones footing the bill. Given his age and price-tag he makes no sense for a team in our current situation.

 

[JS22]

I must be overvaluing Dudley. I would not give up Dudley for either of the players mentioned above (Hayward or Shumpert) even if we got a pick in that deal.
He is a good shooter and a good defender, and probably the best value for the money in the league.

As far as Jefferson goes or Milsap go, either one of them is better than what we have- Gortat, O'Neal, or Morris. Wouldn't give up any picks for any of them. Utah needs one of them gone far more than we need them.

Hayward I would, only because he's got more upside that Dudley at this point. And he's younger. I love Dudley. One of my favorite players. So I'd go nuts if they did something stupid like trade him AND a 1st for Shumpert. But Dudley for Hayward is a good trade. I'd even be willing to throw in a lottery protected 1st.

 

[elindholm]

But the point is: does indeed Jefferson bring so much more on the table than Scola does? I have serious doubts.

Jefferson is hands-down the best player and leader of the team currently sitting #7 in the Western Conference. You can't honestly believe that the Jazz would be anywhere close to that if they had Scola instead.

 

[elindholm]

However, Jefferson is also not a player we should build around. I dont know what he is going to make this summer as a free agent but I know I sure as hell dont want the Suns to be the ones footing the bill. Given his age and price-tag he makes no sense for a team in our current situation.

So I assume you're down on Dwight Howard as well? Howard is only a year younger than Jefferson, he makes a lot more, and his injury history is more frightening.

 

[Phrazbit]

So I assume you're down on Dwight Howard as well? Howard is only a year younger than Jefferson, he makes a lot more, and his injury history is more frightening.

Howard is a 3 time defensive player of the year, Jefferson is very poor defender. This is like comparing Dikembe Mutombo in his prime to Gortat because their offensive outputs are similar.

And even still, no I would not want the Suns to TRADE for Howard... because just like Jefferson he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. A 25 win team that is going to have cap room anyway giving up assets to trade for a UFA would be indescribably stupid.

 

[SirStefan32]

Howard is a 3 time defensive player of the year, Jefferson is very poor defender. This is like comparing Dikembe Mutombo in his prime to Gortat because their offensive outputs are similar.

And even still, no I would not want the Suns to TRADE for Howard... because just like Jefferson he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. A 25 win team that is going to have cap room anyway giving up assets to trade for a UFA would be indescribably stupid.

That makes no sense. If you wanted Jefferson (not sure that I do), it makes sense to trade Gortat and someone else to clear those $15M for next summer.
Howard is a diva- I don't want him in Phoenix at all, but the principle is the same.

Jefferson may be a flawed player in some ways, but some of you guys are seriously underrating him. He is a very big PF/C who has a very good low post game and can hit open jumpers. If you think you can find someone like that for less than $12- 15M per year, I'd love to see it.

 

[Phrazbit]

That makes no sense. If you wanted Jefferson (not sure that I do), it makes sense to trade Gortat and someone else to clear those $15M for next summer.
Howard is a diva- I don't want him in Phoenix at all, but the principle is the same.

Jefferson may be a flawed player in some ways, but some of you guys are seriously underrating him. He is a very big PF/C who has a very good low post game and can hit open jumpers. If you think you can find someone like that for less than $12- 15M per year, I'd love to see it.

It absolutely makes sense. You dont need to clear any space to offer Jefferson that contract, he is going to be sitting there as a free agent just waiting to get overpaid. And if you want to clear even MORE space then you can trade Gortat during the draft for picks, instead of throwing him away so you can rent Jefferson for a few months before having to fight to keep him in free agency.

Jefferson is a nice player, earlier I called him a poor man's Zach Randolph... I think that is a kind evaluation of him. But he clearly cannot carry a team, and will likely begin the typical decline big men of his build go through within the next few years. It would be bonkers for a team in our position to pursue him. We have so many holes on this roster, to go and plug a huge amount of salary for several seasons into a non-star like Jefferson would be a really really bad move.

 

[SirStefan32]

It absolutely makes sense. You dont need to clear any space to offer Jefferson that contract, he is going to be sitting there as a free agent just waiting to get overpaid.

Uh, if you have $10M in cap space, how can you offer someone $12M per year? If you have $12, why not get rid of a useless player to get an additional $7M, just in case you want to sign someone else?

And if you want to clear even MORE space then you can trade Gortat during the draft for picks, instead of throwing him away so you can rent Jefferson for a few months before having to fight to keep him in free agency.

That's just silly- who is offering you a single pick for Gortat, let alone multiple picks? Do you realize that you can't just trade someone who makes $7M+ for a pick or two?

Jefferson is a nice player, earlier I called him a poor man's Zach Randolph... I think that is a kind evaluation of him.

No, he is not a poor man's Zack Randolph. They are not even remotely similar.

But he clearly cannot carry a team, and will likely begin the typical decline big men of his build go through within the next few years. It would be bonkers for a team in our position to pursue him. We have so many holes on this roster, to go and plug a huge amount of salary for several seasons into a non-star like Jefferson would be a really really bad move.

Well, he's been carrying a pretty crappy Utah Jazz team. We can argue about the rest of that statement, but the first part is factually incorrect. We've seen that he can indeed carry a team.

 

[Phrazbit]

Uh, if you have $10M in cap space, how can you offer someone $12M per year? If you have $12, why not get rid of a useless player to get an additional $7M, just in case you want to sign someone else?

That's just silly- who is offering you a single pick for Gortat, let alone multiple picks? Do you realize that you can't just trade someone who makes $7M+ for a pick or two?

No, he is not a poor man's Zack Randolph. They are not even remotely similar.

Well, he's been carrying a pretty crappy Utah Jazz team. We can argue about the rest of that statement, but the first part is factually incorrect. We've seen that he can indeed carry a team.

During the draft you can absolutely trade players for picks, it happens all the time. And its far better than trading Gortat for nothing (which is what an expiring Jefferson amounts to), and it also creates more than enough cap space to sign a max contract.

That "pretty crappy" Jazz team has a lot more talent than we do and its not like they're world beaters with Jefferson.

And who would you compare him to? He, along with Zach Randolph are 2 of the few plodding, legit, low post scorers in the league right now. Zach is a better player on both ends, but I'd say they're similar types of players.

Trading for Jefferson is essentially a salary dump. If its Frye and Beasley we're sending over then wonderful, but obviously the Jazz would have no interest. And with as few assets as the Suns have it would be an abysmal move for us to use them on a rental like Jefferson.

 

[elindholm]

Howard is a 3 time defensive player of the year, Jefferson is very poor defender. This is like comparing Dikembe Mutombo in his prime to Gortat because their offensive outputs are similar.

I think Howard's defense is extremely overrated. He leads the league in rebounds because he's so big and doesn't have to compete with teammates for them, and he gets a lot of blocks, but I've never been especially impressed with his one-on-one defense.

We obviously have different opinions of how much Jefferson brings to the table, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Phrazbit]

All debate about Jefferson's ability aside (and I do think he would make us considerably better), I just dont see how trading for him with his free agent status and our record is justifiable. And I'd feel that way about virtually any upcoming UFA.

 

[AzStevenCal]

All debate about Jefferson's ability aside (and I do think he would make us considerably better), I just dont see how trading for him with his free agent status and our record is justifiable. And I'd feel that way about virtually any upcoming UFA.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is either.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

Nobody is (well, at least I am not) arguing whether it makes sense or whether it's a good idea. We are just pointing out that calling Jefferson "a black Scola" and a "poor man's Zack Randolph" is ridiculous.

 

[Phrazbit]

Nobody is (well, at least I am not) arguing whether it makes sense or whether it's a good idea. We are just pointing out that calling Jefferson "a black Scola" and a "poor man's Zack Randolph" is ridiculous.

I agree that "black Scola" is completely absurd. But I think "poor man's Randolph" is a compliment.

 

[SirStefan32]

I agree that "black Scola" is completely absurd. But I think "poor man's Randolph" is a compliment.

You are either intentionally trying to troll, completely insane, or you have no idea what you are talking about and don't care to learn.

Randolph may be a poor man's Jefferson, but Jefferson is not a poor man's Randolph. In addition to these stats, Jefferson is taller, longer, quicker, faster, more athletic, and four years younger.

Randolph:
Points: 15.7
FG% 47.3%
Rebounds 11.6
Assists: 1.5
Block: 0.5
Turnovers: 2
Steals: 0.9

Jefferson:
Points: 17.4
FG% 48.5%
Rebounds: 9.5
Assists: 2.1
Block: 1.2
Turnovers: 1.2
Steals: 0.9

Do some minor research before you post silly claims that are as far from reality as Beasley is from winning the defensive player of the year award.

 

[Phrazbit]

So basically you're killing the analogy because Jefferson scores 2 more points per game? Which could easily be made up (and then some) if Randolph took the same amount of shots as Al does.

I dont think that claim is so silly... they're similar players, they are not the SAME player, Jefferson is a bit quicker (but by no means quick) and Randolph is a bit stronger, but they are both slower bigs that do most of their work in the post, and can play with their back to the basket, a rarity in today's league. And I was talking about their play style, their age has nothing to do with play comparisons.

And I absolutely think Randolph is the better player. He is better on the glass, just as good (if not better) at scoring and a much better defender. Not saying Randolph is a great defensive player but he holds his own and plays well within Memphis' defensive system. While Jefferson stands out as a serious weakness in a typically stout Utah D.

And I wouldnt trade for Randolph either.

 

[SirStefan32]

That's not what you said.
You said that Jefferson is a poor man's Randolph, which is even more ridiculous than Slin's claim that Jefferson is a black Louis Scola (and let me tell you- it takes skill to reach Slin's level.)
Had you said that they are similar, or one is about as good as the other, I'd still disagree, but I wouldn't call your claim completely ridiculous. Randolph is slower than Dudley or Scola, he shoots lower percentage, doesn't block any shots, turns the ball over more, doesn't pass as well, though he is a better rebounder and defender. All that is besides the point though. The point is that we could have a legitimate argument about Randolph vs. Jefferson, but you just had to pull a Slinslin and call him a "poor man's Randolph."

 

[Phrazbit]

Whatever... I'd still call him a poor man's Randolph. To me that does not mean they have to be the same, just similar in play-style and one is notably worse than the other.

Just like I'd say Channing Frye is a homeless man's Ryan Anderson. Frye is longer, blocks more shots, but in terms of play-style they are very similar... only Anderson is much better.

 

[SirStefan32]

How is Randolph notably better? On what planet is he notable better?