Suns @ Timberwolves Monday game thread 11-15-2021

[Cheesebeef]

Something to think about, Jae Crowder and Cam Johnson are currently ranked #26 and #32 respectively among power forwards per RealGM.

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Yikes.

 

[95pro]

CJ, i've said before looks physically bigger. Also i'm not sure if he grew. I think he tries to play too much within himself, he'll move the ball more than the other reserves. I think with his form and finding consistent minutes within a consistent rotation he'll be fine. We have played 13 games and it feels like the first 8 games the rotations and minutes were all over the place. Now things seem to be settling and hopefully he can find his rhythm.

Oh that nasty dunk Cam Johnson had on the Lakers a few years back was actually on McGee.

Edit: after posting thing i went to cj's highlights, and yes he is a lot bigger now.

 

[GatorAZ]

NBA players wearing undershirts has always peeved me and Cam’s is especially annoying. I think it’s too tight says this amateur scout.

 

[Cheesebeef]

NBA players wearing undershirts has always peeved me and Cam’s is especially annoying. I think it’s too tight says this amateur scout.

i've got a weird annoyance with that also.

 

[Covert Rain]

So? As we all know, +/- is more indicative of the group on the floor, not just individually.

That's a fair point. Looking at just PER or +/- by itself isn't enough. He is also part of the worst 5 lineups with PIE (Player impact), in three of the 5 worst lineups in terms of PACE. His overall numbers are down.

So even if he is playing better individual defense he is creating matchup problems for the Suns while on the court. There is no denying that. I don't know how much they are playing him time wise at PF but that would explain it.

Dude...I am no Cam hater. I didn't even say it was all his fault. Only pointing out how disappointing he has been this year. It's still really early and I think he will come around.

LOL, his body won't be, but that's the only position he's played since the beginning of last year. Last night he even played some center.

LOL. His body?!?! What the heck are you talking about? What does that even mean? So his body never will be but he will be in spirit? Mentally? You can put a player at any position. Doesn't mean that is his position.

 

[Chaplin]

That's a fair point. Looking at just PER or +/- by itself isn't enough. He is also part of the worst 5 lineups with PIE (Player impact), in three of the 5 worst lineups in terms of PACE. His overall numbers are down.

So even if he is playing better individual defense he is creating matchup problems for the Suns while on the court. There is no denying that. I don't know how much they are playing him time wise at PF but that would explain it.

Dude...I am no Cam hater. I didn't even say it was all his fault. Only pointing out how disappointing he has been this year. It's still really early and I think he will come around.


LOL. His body?!?! What the heck are you talking about? What does that even mean? So his body never will be but he will be in spirit? Mentally? You can put a player at any position. Doesn't mean that is his position.

You said he’ll never play PF but he has been for over a year.

 

[Covert Rain]

You said he’ll never play PF but he has been for over a year.

No I didn't. I said "He will NEVER be a PF in the NBA." I did not say "Play". Big difference. On the Suns depth chart he is also listed as the 2nd SF and on EPSN.COM his official position is SF.

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[elindholm]

No I didn't. I said "He will NEVER be a PF in the NBA." I did not say "Play". Big difference. On the Suns depth chart he is also listed as the 2nd SF and on EPSN.COM his official position is SF.

Phoenix Suns 2024-25 NBA Roster - ESPN

Explore the 2024-25 Phoenix Suns NBA roster on ESPN. Includes full details on point guards, shooting guards, power forwards, small forwards and centers.

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ESPN is not the arbiter of what someone's "official position" is, if there even were such a thing, which there isn't.

 

[Covert Rain]

ESPN is not the arbiter of what someone's "official position" is, if there even were such a thing, which there isn't.

I don't know what this means. So Chris Paul's "official position" isn't PG? Again, nobody is saying we don't move guys around in the lineup. We do. Book for example slides to Point on occasion. For much of last season Jae slid to center. I don't think anybody considers Jay a Center. That's not what I am saying. I am saying that there is a position in basketball called a Power Forward. Cam doesn't appear to me to be a typical Power Forward. Maybe some do and that's fair. IMO he isn't a typical PF and has problems lining up against traditional PF's. That's what I mean.

I thought Cam was always pegged as a utility player that would slide up and down but I could be wrong. I don't recall the draft talk by the Suns but the Suns have been looking to solidify the PF position for how long now? They brought in Jae and there has still been talk about solidifying that position each offseason. That to me screams they don't think he is a typical PF but I could be wrong. I just don't think he matches up well against other PF's in this league and likely why they wanted him to bulk up. To try and become that player.

 

[JCSunsfan]

i've got a weird annoyance with that also.

Ha. Me too. Not sure why.

 

[Chaplin]

No I didn't. I said "He will NEVER be a PF in the NBA." I did not say "Play". Big difference. On the Suns depth chart he is also listed as the 2nd SF and on EPSN.COM his official position is SF.

Phoenix Suns 2024-25 NBA Roster - ESPN

Explore the 2024-25 Phoenix Suns NBA roster on ESPN. Includes full details on point guards, shooting guards, power forwards, small forwards and centers.

www.espn.com

Jesus. Give it a rest. Now you’re just acting argumentative for the sake of it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Jesus. Give it a rest. Now you’re just acting argumentative for the sake of it.

Pointing out what I didn't say isn't an argument Chap. It's a fact. I never said that and you know it. Now you are deflecting for the sake of deflecting.

 

[Chaplin]

Pointing out what I didn't say isn't an argument Chap. It's a fact. I never said that and you know it. Now you are deflecting for the sake of deflecting.

This whole line of thought from you is ridiculous.

 

[elindholm]

I don't know what this means. So Chris Paul's "official position" isn't PG? Again, nobody is saying we don't move guys around in the lineup. We do. Book for example slides to Point on occasion. For much of last season Jae slid to center. I don't think anybody considers Jay a Center. That's not what I am saying. I am saying that there is a position in basketball called a Power Forward. Cam doesn't appear to me to be a typical Power Forward. Maybe some do.

I agree that Johnson is not a prototypical PF, nor a successful atypical PF. It's the word "official" that's out of place. In football, positions are defined by rule, and jersey numbers are coded to player positions (or at least used to be; I heard something about that changing recently). There is no discussion of positions anywhere in basketball rules. Positions are a made-up thing to make the game easier to talk and think about.

I agree that the Suns have a serious problem at PF. They drafted Johnson to be an 8th man, and that's what he is. I think I remember the team saying that they saw him as a future PF when they drafted him, but I could be wrong about that. In any case, if they drafted him to be a true starting PF, they made a bad miscalculation, although not so bad as the one they made with Smith.

Crowder should be a 20-mpg energy/grit guy off the bench. He's forced into the starting PF role by default. If Ain'tn were a realistic option for low-post offense, the Suns could get away with PF by committee. But instead they have no one who can create his own shot in the paint, and that's a pretty serious weakness.

 

[Covert Rain]

This whole line of thought from you is ridiculous.

So deflect again from the fact you are wrong. You can disagree with my line of thought. That is fair and reasonable. That is not what I reacted to. Again...you know it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I agree that Johnson is not a prototypical PF, nor a successful atypical PF. It's the word "official" that's out of place. In football, positions are defined by rule, and jersey numbers are coded to player positions (or at least used to be; I heard something about that changing recently). There is no discussion of positions anywhere in basketball rules. Positions are a made-up thing to make the game easier to talk and think about.

I agree that the Suns have a serious problem at PF. They drafted Johnson to be an 8th man, and that's what he is. I think I remember the team saying that they saw him as a future PF when they drafted him, but I could be wrong about that. In any case, if they drafted him to be a true starting PF, they made a bad miscalculation, although not so bad as the one they made with Smith.

Crowder should be a 20-mpg energy/grit guy off the bench. He's forced into the starting PF role by default. If Ain'tn were a realistic option for low-post offense, the Suns could get away with PF by committee. But instead they have no one who can create his own shot in the paint, and that's a pretty serious weakness.

I think you might be right. I couldn't recall. That's a good take though on Cam and the overall issues at the position.

 

[Chaplin]

So deflect again from the fact you are wrong. You can disagree with my line of thought. That is fair and reasonable. That is not what I reacted to. Again...you know it.

What am I wrong at again?

Who cares what his position is? He’s played both forward positions from the bench but you have some strange obsession that we are married into distinct positions. You sound like BC.

Him playing PF has nothing to do with him not hitting shots.

 

[Covert Rain]

What am I wrong at again?

Who cares what his position is? He’s played both forward positions from the bench but you have some strange obsession that we are married into distinct positions. You sound like BC.

Him playing PF has nothing to do with him not hitting shots.

Now you are just playing stupid. STOP. Do I need to show you your own post about what you claim I said verses what I did? You were wrong plain and simple. You are entitled to disagree with me and my opinion. I take no issue with that. What I do take issue with is you putting words into my mouth.

In terms of the topic? Maybe you just don't get what I am saying. The position he plays on the floor determines matchups with other teams. On what planet doesn't that matter? The NBA is all about matchups. When he is on the floor the teams +/- and pace is off. That has everything to do with matchups on the floor. Also, if you go back to my original post I said it appears to me he is not moving well without the basketball like he was last year. That creates easy shots for him when he does. Which part of that is an unreasonable assumption or as you say "ridiculous"??

 

[Chaplin]

Now you are just playing stupid. STOP. Do I need to show you your own post about what you claim I said verses what I did? You were wrong plain and simple. You are entitled to disagree with me and my opinion. I take no issue with that. What I do take issue with is you putting words into my mouth.

In terms of the topic? Maybe you just don't get what I am saying. The position he plays on the floor determines matchups with other teams. On what planet doesn't that matter? The NBA is all about matchups. When he is on the floor the teams +/- and pace is off. That has everything to do with matchups on the floor. Also, if you go back to my original post I said it appears to me he is not moving well without the basketball like he was last year. That creates easy shots for him when he does. Which part of that is an unreasonable assumption or as you say "ridiculous"??

He has had multiple opportunities for open threes and he simply isn’t hitting them. Maybe he’s hesitant when guys are flying towards him, who knows? I do know that the vast majority of the shots he takes are threes with guys flying at him. Doesn’t matter what position he plays.

Point is, him being a bench PF doesn’t mean a lot in the scheme of things. It’s not like every team has an Anthony Davis guarding him off their bench. The problem is thinking that all the defenders he sees are bigger stronger and better than him. And that just isn’t the case. There is not much difference between Cam playing PF and the most of the rest of the leagues bench PF’s.

Where we get in some trouble is at the starting position and Jae Crowder. Strong as all get out but he can’t guard bigger players, they just shoot over him, like KAT was doing last night. And he just shoots and shoots and shoots. At least Cam doesn’t shoot the ball every time he touches it.

 

[Covert Rain]

He has had multiple opportunities for open threes and he simply isn’t hitting them. Maybe he’s hesitant when guys are flying towards him, who knows? I do know that the vast majority of the shots he takes are threes with guys flying at him. Doesn’t matter what position he plays.

Point is, him being a bench PF doesn’t mean a lot in the scheme of things. It’s not like every team has an Anthony Davis guarding him off their bench. The problem is thinking that all the defenders he sees are bigger stronger and better than him. And that just isn’t the case. There is not much difference between Cam playing PF and the most of the rest of the leagues bench PF’s.

Where we get in some trouble is at the starting position and Jae Crowder. Strong as all get out but he can’t guard bigger players, they just shoot over him, like KAT was doing last night. And he just shoots and shoots and shoots. At least Cam doesn’t shoot the ball every time he touches it.

I have noticed him not hitting threes but he just seems to sit there at the three point line more than I have seen him. Maybe it's just because Bridges has been so freaking good without the ball it's exposing Cam more this year. He just doesn't seem as active to me this season without the ball on offense. It just seems like when Cam is making guys chase him all over the court it tends to open things up a bit more for him if they think he might cut or rub off another player for a shot.

 

[Vacard]

Man, KAT might play no defense, he might be chewed out by Paul, but we do need a third reliable scorer because when Klay comes back then GS got it on lock.