Suns to trade Marbury, according to KDUS

[Goldfield]

I think the Suns were commited to the original core of the big three. But the Core has been seriously underachieving. With the team in the finantial situation it was in, they had no choice but to live or die with what they had in place.

Along came a desperate Knicks team that offered everything the Suns needed and more to have ALOT of options as soon as next year to improve they way they feel need be.


From a buisness stand point, you would much rather control you destiny, have the flexability with the cap, & Draft picks to improve your team or to trade them to improve. Than liver or die with somthing that isnt looking so promising.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm

Chaplin:

But I agree with the other guys--this deal was just too good to be true--and in hindsight, it is.

I must not understand what you mean by "hindsight" here. The Suns have traded arguably the league's most valuable point guard for a bunch of projects and a big cut in costs. "Hindsight" won't be available until we see what the team does with the money it saves, and how (or whether) the projects pan out. There isn't any hindsight now, because there is no new information. We know just as much now as we did two days ago.

For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I hate this trade when it happened because I love Stephon Marbury, but now that it's been a couple days, I can see the advantages of it.

But, at heart, I am a basketball guy--this board is full of business guys--the guys that are more concerned with the business side of the game rather than what we put on the court. All this trade Marion nonsense is a direct result of that. After Z and Amare come back, I'm not so sure we'll be as bad as you think.

What do you think the Phoenix Suns will be like when they're actually MOVING on the court? I love Steph, but I have to agree that when he had the ball in his hands, a lot of the time our other players just stood there and watched him. It was blatant. Obviously, now we can't do that. Just having a point guard that ISN'T a star player is going to be totally different than anything we've had in the past 15 years! We only got over the hump once in that 15 year span, all with all-star point guards.

There's a lot of question marks, but we are far from being labeled as a terrible team--not yet, anyway.

 

[George O'Brien]

I have to differ with a few of the assumptions being floated:

1. SIGNING MARBURY IN ORDER TO TRADE HIM: The Suns signed Marbury soon after the Jason Kidd deal was finalized. The Suns did not want to risk losing him to free agency this coming summer and were saying that Stephon is as good as Kidd.

2. PANIC AFTER LOSING A FEW GAMES: The Knicks initiated the talks even before Thomas became GM. While the final deal came together quickly, it appears that BC was very reluctant to make the deal until the offer was just too good to pass up.

3. THEY DIDN'T STAY WITH THEIR PLAN: Compared to the off season, the Suns got rid of Bo Outlaw and Big Jake in exchange for Jahidi White and Donnell Havey. White is a lot better than Jake and Harvey may be better than Bo. The Suns got rid of the last year of Outlaw's contract. Since they were not anticipating being able to get rid of the Hardaway contract, this did little to change their ability to go for free agents.

Maybee if they had known the season was going to be a disaster and that two key players would be injured, they would not have made the Knight for White trade. But if there had not been the injuires, the though of Googs at center was not pleasant.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by Chaplin
For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I hate this trade when it happened because I love Stephon Marbury, but now that it's been a couple days, I can see the advantages of it.

But, at heart, I am a basketball guy--this board is full of business guys--the guys that are more concerned with the business side of the game rather than what we put on the court. All this trade Marion nonsense is a direct result of that. After Z and Amare come back, I'm not so sure we'll be as bad as you think.

What do you think the Phoenix Suns will be like when they're actually MOVING on the court? I love Steph, but I have to agree that when he had the ball in his hands, a lot of the time our other players just stood there and watched him. It was blatant. Obviously, now we can't do that. Just having a point guard that ISN'T a star player is going to be totally different than anything we've had in the past 15 years! We only got over the hump once in that 15 year span, all with all-star point guards.

There's a lot of question marks, but we are far from being labeled as a terrible team--not yet, anyway.

Great post, PG's can't carry a team, thats why this trade wont hurt as bad as we think. JMHO


Also, I think it is important to think about the buisness side. If you dont worrie about the cap you cannot make the best team possable, including depth.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
schutd:

You seem to be ignoring the business side of this deal. Or am I misunderstnading you?

You might be misunderstanding me. If it's a good business decision to give Marbury a maximum extension, how can it then be a good business decision to trade him for table scraps just a few months later? Either one plan is right or the other one is, but they can't both be.

A. I dont call an instantaneous 115 million dollars of financial freedom table scraps.

B. You make the above statement as if the NBA was a hard immobile business where two seemingly contradictory attitudes can't be justified by evolving situations.

It could be justified as a good business decision to sign him when they did, and it can also now be a good business decision to let him go, based on a previously unforseen offer.

You are right about one thing. It will be quite some time before we can accurately judge this move. I just dont see any reason to be so down on it. It makes following the team that much more difficult. But I guess IM more of a roll with the punches kind of guy in terms of my Suns fandom. Nothing I can do about it regardless, and in the end its just sports, so Ill defer judgment to the guys making the decisions that matter.

Also, where it is being WIDELY rumored that this move is some sort of move to facilitate the sale of the team? Havent read any of that yet.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
schutd:

You seem to be ignoring the business side of this deal. Or am I misunderstnading you?

You might be misunderstanding me. If it's a good business decision to give Marbury a maximum extension, how can it then be a good business decision to trade him for table scraps just a few months later? Either one plan is right or the other one is, but they can't both be.

Because they didn't trade him for table scraps. They were able to rid themselves of the two years remaining after this one on Hardaway's maximum contract. That's nothing to scoff at. They also got $9-10 million in savings this season along with $3 million cash. You seem to be the only one who believes that, the draft picks, and the young players are table scraps.

Besides, I still don't understand why the signing could not have worked out either way. I agreed with you that they overpaid in Marbury's extension. They could have felt the same way knowing that they would always be the New York Knicks and maybe a couple other teams that would be willing to take him and his contract off their hands.

1. At least two of the four young players (Lampe, Vujanic, and the two draft picks) turn out to be quite good, by which I mean eight-man-rotation-on-an-elite-team good.

2. The Suns do something constructive with the money they've saved, which means not spending it on free agents who are overpriced, overrated, or injury-prone -- and also not using the savings to facilitate the sale of the team, which is now being widely rumored.

3. This latest rebuilding project is given a chance to work, rather than being (a) prematurely accelerated by stupidly optimistic contract extensions, and then (b) abruptly abandoned at the first sign of distress.

If all three of these things happen -- and it will be years before we know -- I will be happy. Otherwise I will consider it a huge mistake.

That's good, but how will he ever know that the team the way it was Sunday would have ever been any better or worse than they end up? As long as #2 is done correctly they will definitely be in better shape financially.

Joe Mama

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I hate this trade when it happened because I love Stephon Marbury, but now that it's been a couple days, I can see the advantages of it.

But, at heart, I am a basketball guy--this board is full of business guys--the guys that are more concerned with the business side of the game rather than what we put on the court. All this trade Marion nonsense is a direct result of that. After Z and Amare come back, I'm not so sure we'll be as bad as you think.

What do you think the Phoenix Suns will be like when they're actually MOVING on the court? I love Steph, but I have to agree that when he had the ball in his hands, a lot of the time our other players just stood there and watched him. It was blatant. Obviously, now we can't do that. Just having a point guard that ISN'T a star player is going to be totally different than anything we've had in the past 15 years! We only got over the hump once in that 15 year span, all with all-star point guards.

There's a lot of question marks, but we are far from being labeled as a terrible team--not yet, anyway.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I hate this trade when it happened because I love Stephon Marbury, but now that it's been a couple days, I can see the advantages of it.

But, at heart, I am a basketball guy--this board is full of business guys--the guys that are more concerned with the business side of the game rather than what we put on the court. All this trade Marion nonsense is a direct result of that. After Z and Amare come back, I'm not so sure we'll be as bad as you think.

What do you think the Phoenix Suns will be like when they're actually MOVING on the court? I love Steph, but I have to agree that when he had the ball in his hands, a lot of the time our other players just stood there and watched him. It was blatant. Obviously, now we can't do that. Just having a point guard that ISN'T a star player is going to be totally different than anything we've had in the past 15 years! We only got over the hump once in that 15 year span, all with all-star point guards.

There's a lot of question marks, but we are far from being labeled as a terrible team--not yet, anyway.

Good post, Chap. Youre right, I tend to focus on the business side more, and hope that proper business mgmt will ultimtely help the basketball side of things. Problem is, it takes A LONG time for the cause and effect to take place usually, and thats hard to deal with when looking at the team from a talent level standpoint. there has to be some middle ground, i guess.

And an intersting point on the lack of an all star PG. Hadnt thought about that.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by schutd
I just dont see any reason to be so down on it. It makes following the team that much more difficult. But I guess IM more of a roll with the punches kind of guy in terms of my Suns fandom. Nothing I can do about it regardless, and in the end its just sports, so Ill defer judgment to the guys making the decisions that matter.

Exactly

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by schutd
And an intersting point on the lack of an all star PG. Hadnt thought about that.

If Barbosa can get 15-18pts per game(he got 27 pretty easy his first start), without dominating the ball like Marbs did, this team will be IMPROVED. The only thing we will be missing is a go to guy for those buzzer shots, Marbs is one of the best at that.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by BEERZ
If Barbosa can get 15-18pts per game(he got 27 pretty easy his first start), without dominating the ball like Marbs did, this team will be IMPROVED. The only thing we will be missing is a go to guy for those buzzer shots, Marbs is one of the best at that.

If Barbosa played like he did in Chicago every night, he's be on the all-star team. I could live with 12-15 ppg if he keeps everybody involved and takes good shots. If nothing else, I think he will turn into a force on defense that could generate more steals.

His overall numbers in Chicago were fantastic, but I was especially impressed with a low one - only one turnover.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
If Barbosa played like he did in Chicago every night, he's be on the all-star team. I could live with 12-15 ppg if he keeps everybody involved and takes good shots. If nothing else, I think he will turn into a force on defense that could generate more steals.

His overall numbers in Chicago were fantastic, but I was especially impressed with a low one - only one turnover.

I'd like to have Barbosa have Steve Nash numbers when he became a starter for Dallas. He wasn't too flashy, but solid.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'd like to have Barbosa have Steve Nash numbers when he became a starter for Dallas. He wasn't too flashy, but solid.

Agreed, except, I think Barbosa will be much better defender.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Agreed, except, I think Barbosa will be much better defender.

Good point.

 

[elindholm]

Chaplin:

For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I want the Suns to know what they're doing. If I think they've made a mistake, I want them to prove me wrong.

How is it that little old elindholm (among others) thought that the Marbury extension was a mistake when it happened -- but it took the Colangelos another several months to figure it out? Doesn't that make anyone a bit uncomfortable? Aren't they supposed to be a lot wiser than us?

Joe Mama:

You seem to be the only one who believes that, the draft picks, and the young players are table scraps.

Sorry, I should have said "table scraps and a pile of money." But the surest way to save money is just to shut the team down altogether. Almost everyone on this board has passionately criticized the Clippers organization for being more concerned with the financial bottom line than with the quality of their basketball product. Please tell me, how are these Suns any better than the Clippers of the last decade?

Regarding the young players:

Lampe would have gotten minutes for the Knicks if he was worthy of them, especially early in the year before Mutombo emerged.

Vujanic is already in his mid-20s -- just a couple of years younger than Marbury -- and may never come over to the NBA at all.

The draft picks won't be high lottery picks, and in fact many people on this board are already speculating that at least one pick will be traded as part of another cost-cutting move.

schutd:

Also, where it is being WIDELY rumored that this move is some sort of move to facilitate the sale of the team? Havent read any of that yet.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/15122.htm

(Okay, I didn't realize at first that this was Peter Vecey )

http://www.slamonline.com/links/index.html

(Probably good through the end of today only)

I could probably find more.

George O'Brien:

1. SIGNING MARBURY IN ORDER TO TRADE HIM: The Suns signed Marbury soon after the Jason Kidd deal was finalized. The Suns did not want to risk losing him to free agency this coming summer and were saying that Stephon is as good as Kidd.

This is inaccurate. Marbury signed his extension this summer.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
[George O'Brien:

1. SIGNING MARBURY IN ORDER TO TRADE HIM: The Suns signed Marbury soon after the Jason Kidd deal was finalized. The Suns did not want to risk losing him to free agency this coming summer and were saying that Stephon is as good as Kidd.

This is inaccurate. Marbury signed his extension this summer. [/B]

After Kidd signed his contract. Marbury was eligible for free agency this coming summer, but they wanted to get him signed early.

 

[Goldfield]

Vujanic is already in his mid-20s -- just a couple of years younger than Marbury -- and may never come over to the NBA at all.

What is this? Age was never a reason Marbs was traded.

 

[elindholm]

Barbosa

I also want to address some of what's being said about Barbosa.

Now, I do need to confess that I haven't been able to watch many games recently, and I didn't see Barbosa score 27 against the Bulls.

From what I've seen, Barbosa is extremely quick, maybe the quickest player in the league, he has a nose for the hoop and a serviceable (though erratic) three-point shot. I think he could be a fine role player off the bench.

But he is not a point guard. He is a shooting guard in a point guard's body, a quicker version of Tony Delk. His four assists against the Bulls, in 39 minutes, were a career high. Now sure, his minutes have been very limited. But on the year he's averaging less than one assist per game, in about ten minutes. Those just aren't point guard numbers.

And when I have seen him play, I haven't seen that he has any real ability to run the offense or set things up for his teammates. Of course he might develop these abilities, but to start talking about how he'll be better for the team than Marbury is premature, to say the least.

 

[elindholm]

After Kidd signed his contract. Marbury was eligible for free agency this coming summer, but they wanted to get him signed early.

Marbury was signed through 2005 before the extension.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I was especially impressed with a low one - only one turnover.

He shot a good % from the field, but those stats were alot better till the fourth quarter. Playing with 8 guys showed in the fourth as the guys got tired they started missing alot of shots.

Barbosa was like 8 for 10 at one point or somthing.

 

[elindholm]

What is this? Age was never a reason Marbs was traded.

I'm referring to the potential for improvement. Often people use age as a crude measure to establish how likely it is that the player will get better. Marbury is still only 26, and while I agree that his personality made improvement rather unlikely, it was still a realistic possibility. Kidd, by comparison, is now 30 (or 31?) and I think has conceded that he will never be a decent shooter. Part of the reason that we were told to love the Marbury/Kidd trade was that Marbury was still quite young and on the "upside" of his career trajectory.

Vujanic is the same age as Marbury was when the Suns acquired him. By the time he puts on a Suns uniform, he may be the same age as Marbury is now.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
What is this? Age was never a reason Marbs was traded.

I'm referring to the potential for improvement. Often people use age as a crude measure to establish how likely it is that the player will get better. Marbury is still only 26, and while I agree that his personality made improvement rather unlikely, it was still a realistic possibility. Kidd, by comparison, is now 30 (or 31?) and I think has conceded that he will never be a decent shooter. Part of the reason that we were told to love the Marbury/Kidd trade was that Marbury was still quite young and on the "upside" of his career trajectory.

Vujanic is the same age as Marbury was when the Suns acquired him. By the time he puts on a Suns uniform, he may be the same age as Marbury is now.

Marbury has been in the NBA a long time while Vujanic has not. It would be shocking if Vujanic didn't improve after getting NBA minutes.

 

[Chaplin]

Re: Barbosa

Originally posted by elindholm


But he is not a point guard. He is a shooting guard in a point guard's body, a quicker version of Tony Delk. His four assists against the Bulls, in 39 minutes, were a career high. Now sure, his minutes have been very limited. But on the year he's averaging less than one assist per game, in about ten minutes. Those just aren't point guard numbers.

That is EXTREMELY premature. It was his first start, and you're condemning him for not having more than 4 assists? Already?

 

[Goldfield]

Re: Re: Barbosa

Originally posted by Chaplin
That is EXTREMELY premature. It was his first start, and you're condemning him for not having more than 4 assists? Already?

not to mention only ONE turnover in 39 min's, as a rookie in his first start.



Tony Delk?!?!? My opinion of the guy who said that just dropped abit.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
Chaplin:

For someone who continually argues against huge salaries and some of the moves we've made, you seem just a little bit hypocritical here. You don't seem to have any idea what you want.

I want the Suns to know what they're doing. If I think they've made a mistake, I want them to prove me wrong.

How is it that little old elindholm (among others) thought that the Marbury extension was a mistake when it happened -- but it took the Colangelos another several months to figure it out? Doesn't that make anyone a bit uncomfortable? Aren't they supposed to be a lot wiser than us?

Why is that little ole Elindholm is still convinced the Colangelos thought the signing was a mistake? Ive never heard anything from them that explicity stated anything other than we loved Steph, it was hard to let him go, but the future financial ramifications of the deal were too good to pass up (read: WE GOT RID OF PENNY!).

It doesnt make me uncomfortable. Im surprised that it happened. But to me its certainly justifiable.

Thanlks for the links. I hadnt considered that perspective, but I find it a little unlikely. No reason, call it a gut feeling.