Suns updates and discussion for the 2023-24 season

[1982baskets]

Well, there are two reasons that something that would make sense won't happen:
1. James Jones
2. Frank Vogel
When the Suns season ends in disappointment yet again, look at these two numbskulls as the
major reason.

Did Frank Vogel coach last year? What about the year before? Vogel is a proven championship winner. He's also done extremely well in Indiana. I am trying to understand what the real situation is. This team won something like 45 games last year in a much weaker West. This year, teams like OKC, Minnesota, Clippers have all evolved into much better teams. The Lakers for example made the West Finals last year and have been hovering around 9 to 10. The Nuggets around 3-4. The Kings, also a good team, around 6 to 7.

We've got to be real. This isn't the same Suns team that went to the NBA Finals in 2021. This is a team that came off a 45 win season, with 2 stars and a declining HOF point guard, a disgruntled me first Center. We've turned that into a team with 3 stars, a really hard working 2-way Center, and added a shooter like Grayson. The results don't show a lot of improvement in the wins and losses, but this is not because we didn't improve. Our defense and offense is in the top 10 of the NBA. Our health? That's the main problem. Beal, Book and KD have played less than 25 percent of the games together. You put so many new pieces together and your main core pieces don't get reps in, you will not be elite.

We're in a better place today than we were at the end of last season. Now that's not the place we aim to be at (championship level) but we've got the pieces in place and I do believe Vogel has the ability to coach a team to a championship. What we need now is patience, and a healthy season from KD/Book/Beal. This may not be our year, but doesn't mean next year will be a repeat.

 

[Yuma]

Did Frank Vogel coach last year? What about the year before? Vogel is a proven championship winner. He's also done extremely well in Indiana. I am trying to understand what the real situation is. This team won something like 45 games last year in a much weaker West. This year, teams like OKC, Minnesota, Clippers have all evolved into much better teams. The Lakers for example made the West Finals last year and have been hovering around 9 to 10. The Nuggets around 3-4. The Kings, also a good team, around 6 to 7.

We've got to be real. This isn't the same Suns team that went to the NBA Finals in 2021. This is a team that came off a 45 win season, with 2 stars and a declining HOF point guard, a disgruntled me first Center. We've turned that into a team with 3 stars, a really hard working 2-way Center, and added a shooter like Grayson. The results don't show a lot of improvement in the wins and losses, but this is not because we didn't improve. Our defense and offense is in the top 10 of the NBA. Our health? That's the main problem. Beal, Book and KD have played less than 25 percent of the games together. You put so many new pieces together and your main core pieces don't get reps in, you will not be elite.

We're in a better place today than we were at the end of last season. Now that's not the place we aim to be at (championship level) but we've got the pieces in place and I do believe Vogel has the ability to coach a team to a championship. What we need now is patience, and a healthy season from KD/Book/Beal. This may not be our year, but doesn't mean next year will be a repeat.

I think people have high expectations that this team we put together would just crush other teams. I factor in all the things you say, and figured it was going to be a slog for us this season. There is alarming concern with our fourth quarter play to be fair to those who have concerns. It would be much better for all our mental health if we played better in the fourth quarters for sure.

 

[Ronin]

David Roddy adds depth as youngest player on Suns roster

David Roddy is one of the newest Phoenix Suns players and the youngest at 22 years old. With all of that considered, Roddy believes he can contribute this season and is more than a developmental player on a long-term deal. “I know I can add to this team,” Roddy said Tuesday when he joined...

sports.yahoo.com

 

[1982baskets]

The expectations with a top heavy roster, 3 super maxed out players, tax situation, it should never been an expectation of a team that will be the first or second seed. Not unless everything went perfect, such as health of Beal. Beal has been injury prone the last few years. Now this year, we've seen both Beal and Book be injury prone.

When you have a roster like ours, newly put together, not realistic to have an expectation of being the best. We're in the good, not great category. Which to me is where I expected us to be. Now, if Beal and Booker been healthy throughout, say we had gotten 50 to 55 games from the big 3 and we're sitting sixth in the standings, then I can a reason to make some panic moves.

Even then, I feel we're a dangerous team to face. We know how to play defense and we have great weapons on offense. If we can get a string of 15 to 20 games with Booker, Beal, Durant, Nurk and Allen so they can gain some reps, momentum and all that going into the play ins or playoffs, I think this isn't a team anyone wants to face in those stages.

 

[Chaplin]

Book is really casual here, some good stuff:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Suns_fan69]

Book is really casual here, some good stuff:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Rare for Book to participate in podcasts like this (first time, I think?).

 

[Hoop Head]

Did Frank Vogel coach last year? What about the year before? Vogel is a proven championship winner. He's also done extremely well in Indiana. I am trying to understand what the real situation is. This team won something like 45 games last year in a much weaker West. This year, teams like OKC, Minnesota, Clippers have all evolved into much better teams. The Lakers for example made the West Finals last year and have been hovering around 9 to 10. The Nuggets around 3-4. The Kings, also a good team, around 6 to 7.

We've got to be real. This isn't the same Suns team that went to the NBA Finals in 2021. This is a team that came off a 45 win season, with 2 stars and a declining HOF point guard, a disgruntled me first Center. We've turned that into a team with 3 stars, a really hard working 2-way Center, and added a shooter like Grayson. The results don't show a lot of improvement in the wins and losses, but this is not because we didn't improve. Our defense and offense is in the top 10 of the NBA. Our health? That's the main problem. Beal, Book and KD have played less than 25 percent of the games together. You put so many new pieces together and your main core pieces don't get reps in, you will not be elite.

We're in a better place today than we were at the end of last season. Now that's not the place we aim to be at (championship level) but we've got the pieces in place and I do believe Vogel has the ability to coach a team to a championship. What we need now is patience, and a healthy season from KD/Book/Beal. This may not be our year, but doesn't mean next year will be a repeat.

Vogel was in Indiana almost a decade back, 8 years ago. He's flamed out of Orlando and LA since then and while he did a coach a championship team that bubble championship is often discredited. If anyone deserves credit for that title its LeBron and AD, not Vogel. That is the only time the Lakers won a playoff series in Vogel's 3 years there as well. They lost to us in the 1st round the following season and missed the playoffs altogether the next year. Vogel doesn't have a quality track record. He could very well be the worst title winning coach ever.

This team isn't doing better than when Monty was coaching them, on either side of the ball. That's either an indictment on Vogel or James Jones for firing Monty.

I wouldn't say the West is better this year either. It's as good as it was last year. The West is deep and tough and the Suns are losing ground despite their franchise centerpiece being 26 years old. Surrounding Booker by geriatrics won't bring this team a title and that should be clear to everyone by now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Vogel was in Indiana almost a decade back, 8 years ago. He's flamed out of Orlando and LA since then and while he did a coach a championship team that bubble championship is often discredited. If anyone deserves credit for that title its LeBron and AD, not Vogel. That is the only time the Lakers won a playoff series in Vogel's 3 years there as well. They lost to us in the 1st round the following season and missed the playoffs altogether the next year. Vogel doesn't have a quality track record. He could very well be the worst title winning coach ever.

This team isn't doing better than when Monty was coaching them, on either side of the ball. That's either an indictment on Vogel or James Jones for firing Monty.

I wouldn't say the West is better this year either. It's as good as it was last year.

This is demonstrably and just factually false. The best team in the West last was the Nuggets with 52 wins. That’s lowest 1 seed has had for wins for like a decade. The 2 seed won 48 games. Also, unheard of in the West for a really long time.

This year alone, you’re likely looking at the top 4 teams winning more games than last year’s 1 seed and better records with 5 and 6 seeds as well compared to last year.

I know you always want to show how right you are about how bad the KD trade was and this team is no better than last year’s, but when you make such specious arguments like the above that can be literally be proven false, it does your original argument no favors.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is demonstrably and just factually false. The best team in the West last was the Nuggets with 52 wins. That’s lowest 1 seed has had for wins for like a decade. The 2 seed won 48 games. Also, unheard of in the West for a really long time.

This year alone, you’re likely looking at the top 4 teams winning more games than last year’s 1 seed and better records with 5 and 6 seeds as well compared to last year.

I know you always want to show how right you are about how bad the KD trade was and this team is no better than last year’s, but when you make such specious arguments like the above that can be literally be proven false, it does your original argument no favors.

Last year's team had a better net rating than this year's squad, despite having an even worse bill of health and only getting 8 games out of Durant.

Monty had to go, you can't bomb out like that two seasons straight, he looked totally checked out anyway. However, Vogel certainly seems like a downgrade.

 

[Hoop Head]

This is demonstrably and just factually false. The best team in the West last was the Nuggets with 52 wins. That’s lowest 1 seed has had for wins for like a decade. The 2 seed won 48 games. Also, unheard of in the West for a really long time.

This year alone, you’re likely looking at the top 4 teams winning more games than last year’s 1 seed and better records with 5 and 6 seeds as well compared to last year.

I know you always want to show how right you are about how bad the KD trade was and this team is no better than last year’s, but when you make such specious arguments like the above that can be literally be proven false, it does your original argument no favors.

The #2 seed won 51 games. Can't even get your own information correct because you're constantly looking to tell someone how wrong they are. The only reason I saw your post is Phraz replied to it and you reminded me why I have you on ignore. You're trying to restate what I said, which is the West was just as strong last year and I believe that because there's a similar amount of parity. Last year the 12th seed was in the hunt for a play in spot until the final 2 weeks and it doesnt look like that will happen this year as there is more space between the 10 and 11 seed than last year. The West also has weaker teams with San Antonio and Portland being terrible and both struggling to win 20 games. If you want to look at the top for the strength that's fine but I choose to look at the whole conference, which is less bunched together than last year. Having a few outliers doesn't paint the picture of the whole conference.

Now do me a favor, quit trying to twist what I say. Even if I don't see it 99% of the time, I will catch it occasionally. I imagine you still do the same to others also and this board would be a better place if you quit trying to be so petty. It has been a more pleasant experience for me since I blocked you at the beginning of the season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The #2 seed won 51 games. Can't even get your own information correct because you're constantly looking to tell someone how wrong they are. The only reason I saw your post is Phraz replied to it and you reminded me why I have you on ignore. You're trying to restate what I said, which is the West was just as strong last year and I believe that because there's a similar amount of parity. Last year the 12th seed was in the hunt for a play in spot until the final 2 weeks and it doesnt look like that will happen this year as there is more space between the 10 and 11 seed than last year. The West also has weaker teams with San Antonio and Portland being terrible and both struggling to win 20 games. If you want to look at the top for the strength that's fine but I choose to look at the whole conference, which is less bunched together than last year. Having a few outliers doesn't paint the picture of the whole conference.

Now do me a favor, quit trying to twist what I say. Even if I don't see it 99% of the time, I will catch it occasionally. I imagine you still do the same to others also and this board would be a better place if you quit trying to be so petty. It has been a more pleasant experience for me since I blocked you at the beginning of the season.

Hmm whenever I think of strength of the conference it’s always been in terms of the playoff teams and contenders, not the dregs or those desperately trying to make the playoffs. Maybe just me? Anyone else think about strength of a conference in terms of the bottom half?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hmm whenever I think of strength of the conference it’s always been in terms of the playoff teams and contenders, not the dregs or those desperately trying to make the playoffs. Maybe just me? Anyone else think about strength of a conference in terms of the bottom half?

No.

Also, get ready for the inevitable “Cool Bro” criticism in response to your post (or hopefully a new nickname I can look forward to mocking in the future).

 

[Cheesebeef]

The #2 seed won 51 games. Can't even get your own information correct because you're constantly looking to tell someone how wrong they are.

Yup. I forgot about the Grizzlies. So I was wrong there. See how easy that was for me to admit when I was wrong.

Meanwhile, everything else I said about the West this year compared to last was right.

1-10, literally, every single record is better, in the top 7, by leaps and bounds, but still better in 8-10 as well.

The rest of your argument judging the Conference basically by the bottom up really isn’t even serious enough to bother replying to, so I’ll spare the board with more flame war between the two of us and leave it at that.

 

[taz02]

Last year's team had a better net rating than this year's squad, despite having an even worse bill of health and only getting 8 games out of Durant.

Monty had to go, you can't bomb out like that two seasons straight, he looked totally checked out anyway. However, Vogel certainly seems like a downgrade.

This sums it up pretty well. KD and crew will likely turn on Vogel pretty quick if they feel he's the problem and the season doesn't end well.

We are what we are at this point and I have no idea what to expect from this team. I wouldn't be surprised by a finals appearance or a 30 point blowout loss in the play in.

 

[Hoop Head]

Hmm whenever I think of strength of the conference it’s always been in terms of the playoff teams and contenders, not the dregs or those desperately trying to make the playoffs. Maybe just me? Anyone else think about strength of a conference in terms of the bottom half?

Going to hyper focus on 1 piece of what I said? I look at the whole conference, not just the top or bottom. If you want to claim the top determines strength then I suppose the 2016 West was the strongest in the history of the league given the Warriors won 73 games.

Like I said, I choose to view the conference as a whole and given how up in the air all playoff series were last year the depth was better than this year.

Is that easy to understand or are you going to nitpick like your brother to be pedantic?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Going to hyper focus on 1 piece of what I said? I look at the whole conference, not just the top or bottom. If you want to claim the top determines strength then I suppose the 2016 West was the strongest in the history of the league given the Warriors won 73 games.

Like I said, I choose to view the conference as a whole and given how up in the air all playoff series were last year the depth was better than this year.

Is that easy to understand or are you going to nitpick like your brother to be pedantic?

I was stating how I’ve viewed strength. You’re welcome to think of it differently. I was just interested in seeing how others viewed it. But sure, go ahead and pick a fight with me because you’re arguing with my brother

 

[Hoop Head]

I was stating how I’ve viewed strength. You’re welcome to think of it differently. I was just interested in seeing how others viewed it. But sure, go ahead and pick a fight with me because you’re arguing with my brother

Like you weren't standing up for your brother. There was zero reason to say what you did otherwise. It's comical how you two act like you don't mean to stand up for each other, it just so happens you both do it coincidentally whenever one of you start an argument.

 

[Yuma]

Like you weren't standing up for your brother. There was zero reason to say what you did otherwise. It's comical how you two act like you don't mean to stand up for each other, it just so happens you both do it coincidentally whenever one of you start an argument.

Isn't that what brothers do? If I saw my brother in a fight in a bar, I would no doubt jump in! LOL!

 

[Covert Rain]

Now do me a favor, quit trying to twist what I say.

The irony.

 

[95pro]

Vogel was in Indiana almost a decade back, 8 years ago. He's flamed out of Orlando and LA since then and while he did a coach a championship team that bubble championship is often discredited. If anyone deserves credit for that title its LeBron and AD, not Vogel. That is the only time the Lakers won a playoff series in Vogel's 3 years there as well. They lost to us in the 1st round the following season and missed the playoffs altogether the next year. Vogel doesn't have a quality track record. He could very well be the worst title winning coach ever.

This team isn't doing better than when Monty was coaching them, on either side of the ball. That's either an indictment on Vogel or James Jones for firing Monty.

I wouldn't say the West is better this year either. It's as good as it was last year. The West is deep and tough and the Suns are losing ground despite their franchise centerpiece being 26 years old. Surrounding Booker by geriatrics won't bring this team a title and that should be clear to everyone by now.

I disagree with the 'either side of the ball', our defensive stats show Vogel has our defense improving. I say this considering our roster are offensive minded guys first and really not known to be defensive stoppers. Then you add a somewhat slow footed center who has to play drop most times, and just a ton of roster movement, we can see that now we have somewhat of a solid rotation, the defense is trending up on the better half league wide.

I'm right there with you though, the overall the western conference is about the same, the east got weaker. I'd say powers have shifted to Okc and Wolves, obviously. But can the Lakers and Warriors turn it on for a first round and win against a 1 or 2 seed, yes. They are still dangerous with Steph and James. The 10th seed last year was 13 games back, and currently 11.5 games back. The east is a joke with double that spread.

I don't know who could replace Vogel, but I think one or the other is gone in Vogel or Young. The main thing I hate is our offense, crazy right? Considering we have mf'ing Book, Beal and KD on our roster, then shooters in Gordon and Allen.

 

[Yuma]

I don't know who could replace Vogel, but I think one or the other is gone in Vogel or Young. The main thing I hate is our offense, crazy right? Considering we have mf'ing Book, Beal and KD on our roster, then shooters in Gordon and Allen.

The offense has been a BIG disappointment to me. Especially the struggles we have had with the double teams in the fourth quarter. If Vogel goes, no way do I want Kevin Young to replace him. The struggles on offense make me discount this guy.

 

[Covert Rain]

The offense has been a BIG disappointment to me. Especially the struggles we have had with the double teams in the fourth quarter. If Vogel goes, no way do I want Kevin Young to replace him. The struggles on offense make me discount this guy.

I guess the depends on if you think Vogel is the type of coach where it's his way or the highway. That might suppress what Young would do given the reigns. If not? I agree. This offense is the most simplistic one I have seen in a long time.

 

[Hoop Head]

The irony.

Trying to start conflict where there is none? Oh the predictability.


Just to spell it out, this has nothing to do with you but you decide to throw needless jabs because ???? I know you're petty, wouldn't have predicted you to be that petty though. Guess I was wrong when I assumed you were better than that. I won't make that mistake again, it's cool.

 

[Hoop Head]

I disagree with the 'either side of the ball', our defensive stats show Vogel has our defense improving. I say this considering our roster are offensive minded guys first and really not known to be defensive stoppers. Then you add a somewhat slow footed center who has to play drop most times, and just a ton of roster movement, we can see that now we have somewhat of a solid rotation, the defense is trending up on the better half league wide.

I'm right there with you though, the overall the western conference is about the same, the east got weaker. I'd say powers have shifted to Okc and Wolves, obviously. But can the Lakers and Warriors turn it on for a first round and win against a 1 or 2 seed, yes. They are still dangerous with Steph and James. The 10th seed last year was 13 games back, and currently 11.5 games back. The east is a joke with double that spread.

I don't know who could replace Vogel, but I think one or the other is gone in Vogel or Young. The main thing I hate is our offense, crazy right? Considering we have mf'ing Book, Beal and KD on our roster, then shooters in Gordon and Allen.

I think our defense is similar in quality to last year overall. There's better stints this year where we play great defense but there's more clueless inept stints as well. We always seemed to be play average defense under Monty, minus a possession or a run here and there but more often than not the D was good. I don't think its improved a noticeable amount or regressed as a whole. It's average, in that 10-15 range of the league. With the fall off on offense, the failure to noticeably improve the defense should cost Vogel his job at years end.

Last year in the playoffs any seed could have taken any round. We saw the 7 seed Lakers make the WCF after having the best record in the league post trade deadline. They still only managed to get to the 7th seed though. We saw the 6th seed Warriors beat the 3 seed Kings also. None of those were really upsets either. This year there is more defined hierarchy in OKC, Minnesota, Nuggets, and Clippers. The Nuggets have been on cruise control all season and I feel Minnesota are pretenders more than contenders. The Clippers and OKC are dangerous squads though. There isn't the same quality in the bottom half. I don't think anyone is penciling the Suns, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, or Warriors into the WCF and any of them making it that far would be surprise. No one would guess they'd make it out. There's more disparity between the haves and have nots. Even the best teams have some questions like can Minnesota actually win in the postseason, can the Clippers stay healthy and quit being the Clippers, is OKC too young? There weren't those questions last year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think our defense is similar in quality to last year overall. There's better stints this year where we play great defense but there's more clueless inept stints as well. We always seemed to be play average defense under Monty, minus a possession or a run here and there but more often than not the D was good. I don't think its improved a noticeable amount or regressed as a whole. It's average, in that 10-15 range of the league. With the fall off on offense the failure to noticeably improve the defense should cost Vogel his job at years end.

Last year in the playoffs any seed could have taken any round. We saw the 7 seed Lakers make the WCF after having the best record in the league post trade deadline. They still only managed to get to the 7th seed though. We saw the 6th seed Warriors beat the 3 seed Kings also. None of those were really upsets either. This year there is more defined hierarchy in OKC, Minnesota, Nuggets, and Clippers. The Nuggets have been on cruise control all season and I feel Minnesota are pretenders more than contenders. The Clippers and OKC are dangerous squads though. There isn't the same quality in the bottom half. I don't think anyone is penciling the Suns, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, or Warriors into the WCF and any of them making it that far would be surprise. No one would guess they'd make it out. There's more disparity between the haves and have nots. Even the best teams have some questions like can Minnesota actually win in the postseason, can the Clippers stay healthy and quit being the Clippers, is OKC too young? There weren't those questions last year.

What in the world are you talking about? First…. there weren’t questions about the Clippers health last year?! There’s questions about the Clippers health EVERY YEAR, ESPECIALLY LAST YEAR when Paul George GOT HURT INDEFINITELY with a month to go and Kawhi is ALWAYS questionable and ended up hurt also. I mean, it is BIZARRE to put that as a question this year and then say it wasn’t one last year. Also, last year there ABSOLUTELY were similar questions asked about last year’s top teams. People questioned could the Nuggets win in the postseason (never had before), absolutely questioned if a 48 win Sacramento team too young since they’d never made the playoffs, and were asking are the Grizzlies too much of a mess with the Ja stuff.

Also, Denver showed how weak last year’s West was because they breezed through the West, going 12-3. I mean… if the West was so tough, shouldn’t someone have given a 53 win Denver team a really good run? And if you say the Suns took to them to 6, I can pull up whatever voluminous amount of posts where YOU trashed the Suns in that series as not being close. As to the rest of your argument, last year saw those upsets BECAUSE everyone except Denver was so mediocre and had MAJOR questions going into the playoffs. Do you even realize how much you’re contradict yourself by claiming this year there’s more of a heirarchy and that’s why it was more competitive last year, but then end your statement by saying there’s major questions about the teams up top (save Denver) that could lead to them losing?