Suns vs Cavs - Bledsoe's return

[sunsfan88]

Green, more than anyone, killed us tonight. He did the same thing the last time Bledsoe returned to the lineup. IIRC, he disappeared for 3 or 4 games before he went back to giving us double digit points routinely. I hope this time he got it out of his system in one night. Jeff has stated that he'll still get his minutes so I dont know why Eric's return would bother him but it looks like it does.

Green, Eric and Goran combined for 3 of 18 from the 3 point line. Hard to win shooting like that.

Bledsoe was a +2, every other Sun fell to the minus side tonight.

I think Green tries to chuck to stat pad when Bledsoe plays. He wants the coach to keep in the game for long and he wants to try and prove that he should be the starter so he shoots as soon as he gets the ball instead of thinking about driving it or passing it to an open teammate. He wants his #s to look good so that his next contract will pay him handsomely and give him a starting gig.

He cares more about points now than assists or rebounds. Even defensively he was a wreck.

He plays selfish. That play today on the fast break when he had 2 teammates with him on a 3 on 1 and decided to try the layup and miss instead of passing it to an open teammate reminded me of elindholm saying how our players are selfish in the other thread.

 

[Catlover]

I think Green tries to chuck to stat pad when Bledsoe plays. He wants the coach to keep in the game for long and he wants to try and prove that he should be the starter so he shoots as soon as he gets the ball instead of thinking about driving it or passing it to an open teammate. He wants his #s to look good so that his next contract will pay him handsomely and give him a starting gig.

He cares more about points now than assists or rebounds. Even defensively he was a wreck.

He plays selfish. That play today on the fast break when he had 2 teammates with him on a 3 on 1 and decided to try the layup and miss instead of passing it to an open teammate reminded me of elindholm saying how our players are selfish in the other thread.

I don't think that's it. I think it's confidence and maybe he gets his feelings hurt a bit. He's bounced around from one team to another and one league to another and now he thinks he's finally found a home. He goes out there and puts up big numbers and then finds out it's all for naught, it's back to the bench for him. I'm just speculating so obviously that's all a big maybe. But IIRC, he didn't come in and chuck the last time Bledsoe came back. I'm pretty sure he passed up a lot of shots and played almost timidly.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Our defensive rotations were way way screwed up last night. A lot of wide open shots for the cavs. A real lack of chemistry by the Suns all the way around. I chalk that up to PJ Tucker's absence and working Bledsoe back in. I expect things to improve as we move forward.

 

[JS22]

I don't think the fat lady has sung and Elvis is has not left yet, but yes soon not even in theory ... if they continue like this.

The fat lady is clearing her throat.

Not quite ready to sing yet, though.

 

[slinslin]

We won't catch Memphis that is for sure, Memphis recent record is something like 22 W 7 L

As long as they are healthy they are simply a very good team.

We play Minnesota next Sunday, if we continue to slump the Timberwolves could take us then. In my opinion that is the best case now.

8th seed and first round exit
9th seed and 1 late lottery pick in a deep draft and 2 second round picks sometime in the future
10th seed and 2 late lottery picks in a deep draft

 

[Mainstreet]

What does that even mean?? They could be playing any team, being a young team. The expectations to get back into playoff seeding, this being a huge game (irrespective of team). Like it or not... The Suns are an overachieving, young, inexperience team!

The overachieving aspect is rapidly going by the wayside. I do not believe the Suns recent poor play, especially on defense, can be attributed solely to playoff pressure.

 

[Mainstreet]

Frye has to go in the offseason if he opts out.

He has been absolute killing us since the allstar break. I can't remember 1 good game from him since.

Frye, Christmas, Randolph, Barbosa and maybe Tucker and Ish depending on demands.. We need roster space for our first round picks and free agents.

On the bright side Minnesota is only 3 losses behind us and 7-3 over their last 10 games. If they overtake us in the standings we are very very very likely to get at least #13 Suns, #14 TWolves, #17 Wizards and #28 Indiana.

I'm in general agreement with you but I can't believe Frye will opt out in the last year of his contract.

I think some of the Suns roster may be included in a trade using draft picks if the Suns have a potential star type player on their radar. I do think teams will be knocking on the Suns door during the draft if a player they want slides. Having picks #13,#14, and #17 would be sweet.

 

[TucsonDevil]

I'm in general agreement with you but I can't believe Frye will opt out in the last year of his contract.

Frye is great to have on the court if he is balanced out with another bruiser down low (Amare, 1st half/season Miles, etc). When he is supposed to be the bruiser - the Suns are in trouble. We can't have too softies in the 4-5 hole - even if one can stretch the floor and create spacing necessary for shooters. If Len could be a rim protector and double digit rebounder - I don't have any issues keeping Frye.

That's a big IF

 

[Mainstreet]

Frye is great to have on the court if he is balanced out with another bruiser down low (Amare, 1st half/season Miles, etc). When he is supposed to be the bruiser - the Suns are in trouble. We can't have too softies in the 4-5 hole - even if one can stretch the floor and create spacing necessary for shooters. If Len could be a rim protector and double digit rebounder - I don't have any issues keeping Frye.

That's a big IF

I don't think the Suns have a choice about keeping Frye unless he can be packaged in a trade. If I had my choice, Frye would be gone next season. I'd rather have a player like Spencer Hawes play Frye's role. He will be a FA and he is only 25.

 

[elindholm]

This fantasy of trading Frye is dangerous. The problem with trading players you don't want is that generally no one else wants them either. It's quite likely that the cost of keeping Frye will be easier to stomach than the cost of trading him.

 

[desertdawg]

This fantasy of trading Frye is dangerous. The problem with trading players you don't want is that generally no one else wants them either. It's quite likely that the cost of keeping Frye will be easier to stomach than the cost of trading him.

Yup, you gotta pimp them hoes when they hot, not when they have cold sores.

 

[Errntknght]

Yup,...

Dammit dawg, after 16 thousand posts you should know better!

 

[AfroSuns]

The overachieving aspect is rapidly going by the wayside. I do not believe the Suns recent poor play, especially on defense, can be attributed solely to playoff pressure.

I agree, but you cant ignore it is part of it. Tucker out is one, Bledsoe's return resulting in Green going to the bench and playing probably his worse game of the season played a huge role too in yesterday's loss.

 

[GYDevil]

We won't catch Memphis that is for sure, Memphis recent record is something like 22 W 7 L

As long as they are healthy they are simply a very good team.

We play Minnesota next Sunday, if we continue to slump the Timberwolves could take us then. In my opinion that is the best case now.

8th seed and first round exit
9th seed and 1 late lottery pick in a deep draft and 2 second round picks sometime in the future
10th seed and 2 late lottery picks in a deep draft

You can make an argument that the current Suns position is the absolute worst case scenario for this season from a draft perspective. No Minny pick and Suns pick is the worst it could possibly be without making the playoffs.

You can also make the argument that the improvement and unexpected play of Dragic, Morris twins, Plumlee, Green, etc is worth the cost in draft position, but from what I have seen from this board, it appears most would have preferred a top-5 suns pick and Minny pick rather than a run at the playoffs that fell short. I am on the fence and haven't really decided which one is better.

 

[Mainstreet]

This fantasy of trading Frye is dangerous. The problem with trading players you don't want is that generally no one else wants them either. It's quite likely that the cost of keeping Frye will be easier to stomach than the cost of trading him.

I agree it's all fantasy right now but if the Suns go after some talent via trade, perhaps Frye plus picks can be used to make the trade work. Also he will be an expiring contract if he picks up his option.

 

[Superbone]

I'm not mad at any outcome this season. The team has been entertaining to watch and has been the talk of the NBA for much of the season. We are definitely overachieving. We are not going to be a difference maker this year anyway. Just play out the season to the best of our abilities and let the cards lay where they fall.

Next year, if we are able to make a decent free agent acquisition or two, we can start to make some real noise in the West.

 

[BC867]

Frye is great to have on the court if he is balanced out with another bruiser down low (Amare, 1st half/season Miles, etc). When he is supposed to be the bruiser - the Suns are in trouble. We can't have too softies in the 4-5 hole - even if one can stretch the floor and create spacing necessary for shooters. If Len could be a rim protector and double digit rebounder - I don't have any issues keeping Frye.

That's a big IF

A bruiser down low wouldn't be another one alongside Frye. He'd be the only one. You don't move up the ladder with one power player any more than with the zero we have now.

No matter what, Frye in a post position (especially with the time he is getting at Center) is a detriment, even with his sporadic ability to hit 3's.

Losing Frye and replacing him with a legitimate power player would be addition by subtraction, even if the replacement is just average. And, no, I don't believe that Markieff is that power player either.

 

[Catlover]

A bruiser down low wouldn't be another one alongside Frye. He'd be the only one. You don't move up the ladder with one power player any more than with the zero we have now.

No matter what, Frye in a post position (especially with the time he is getting at Center) is a detriment, even with his sporadic ability to hit 3's.

Losing Frye and replacing him with a legitimate power player would be addition by subtraction, even if the replacement is just average. And, no, I don't believe that Markieff is that power player either.

Of course you do. I can't believe you're even saying this. Read what you wrote. You're basically saying that if you can't have two good power players you don't want any. Sorry, I'll take Wilt Chamberlain and slide whatever scrub shows up into the 4 slot and be confident we'd move up that ladder you mentioned. Two is better than none but so is one.

I'd be fine pairing Frye with a good all around center. I'd be fine replacing him with a stud power forward to play alongside Plumlee or Len. But replacing Frye with an average power forward does little for us. An average power forward would have made us better in probably 30 games this season and a little worse in the other 34 games. I don't see how that makes us better. I'd like to improve our forward/center positions but if we're going to just set our sights on average we should target the center position. That's the position we fall short in the most and it's by quite a margin IMO.

 

[SirStefan32]

Frye will be a sizable expiring contract, so I can imagine the Suns being able to move him, but I am not really optimistic about that. Nobody wants to take your crap without giving you some of their own crap.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I really disagree with the coaching staff's decision to not give Len an opportunity to you know ... prove himself

It is ridiculous in my mind that his SEASON HIGH in minutes this year is 22 ! ... he played about 16 mpg for 3 games w/ Plumlee out, seemed to move better as the 3 games went along, + did NOT hurt the team noticeable when he was on the floor ...

And then against LAC he played 3 minutes and he DNP last night: I don't get it - Even if Len played poorly in the 3 games (Which he didn't), that doesn't change the fact that playing him 3 out of every 5 games is limiting his development, growth, confidence, etc.

Basically - It's just hard to get a good read on Len when his minutes are (unfairly) inconsistent ... it is ridiculous that this late in the season, Len's game / identity is still unclear simply because he hasn't gotten consistent minutes at any pt. this season ...

What is so hard about playing him 10-15 minutes per game for 5 - 10 games STRAIGHT to see what he can bring ?

 

[Catlover]

I really disagree with the coaching staff's decision to not give Len an opportunity to you know ... prove himself

It is ridiculous in my mind that his SEASON HIGH in minutes this year is 22 ! ... he played about 16 mpg for 3 games w/ Plumlee out, seemed to move better as the 3 games went along, + did NOT hurt the team noticeable when he was on the floor ...

And then against LAC he played 3 minutes and he DNP last night: I don't get it - Even if Len played poorly in the 3 games (Which he didn't), that doesn't change the fact that playing him 3 out of every 5 games is limiting his development, growth, confidence, etc.

Basically - It's just hard to get a good read on Len when his minutes are (unfairly) inconsistent ... it is ridiculous that this late in the season, Len's game / identity is still unclear simply because he hasn't gotten consistent minutes at any pt. this season ...

What is so hard about playing him 10-15 minutes per game for 5 - 10 games STRAIGHT to see what he can bring ?

If we knew for sure what his effort and focus was during practice and if we knew for sure what the medical staff was saying we might have a better understanding why a team in need of a big man hasn't played the one they have.

I don't know what's going on but I do know that even in ideal situations it's common for big men to take a few years to learn how to play the game. Len's situation is far from ideal. He came to the game late, he came out early despite not having really played at a level to justify that early departure, he had a serious injury and spent the offseason and much of the early season recovering from that injury. At this point, any expectations at all of either Len or the way he is being used seem unreasonable to me.

 

[Errntknght]

Plumlee looked much more like his early season self in this game than he has for the last month or so. EJ kept relating it to Bledsoe's return but I'm inclined to think it was coincidental. Eric looked better than I expected him to in his first game back but I think it disturbed the teams equilibrium some - Westbrook's return to OKC was not that smooth either.

Cleveland improved themselves with the addition of Hawes and Deng, and on top of that they were outhustling us... we were on the wrong side of underestimating an opponent this time. They were not the same team we came back against so easily in out last game against them... we made runs but they didn't fold this time. PJ's fire and rebounding were sorely missed but I'm not sure they would have changed the outcome. Maybe if he's somehow inspired the guys to make their frickin' free throws...

The road trip is coming at a good time... they can help team cohesion and with that we may see them playing harder and smarter. And if not we just might add Minny's pick.

 

[BC867]

We should target the center position. That's the position we fall short in the most and it's by quite a margin IMO.

That is absolutely right! And that is what I meant by:

Losing Frye and replacing him with a legitimate power player would be addition by subtraction, even if the replacement is just average. And, no, I don't believe that Markieff is that power player either.

Frye and Kieff have logged more minutes at Center than probably even Plumlee.

As long as Frye is around, we're stuck in that level of complacency. At the beginning of the season, I was afraid that he would be our primary Center with the game on the line.

 

[Catlover]

That is absolutely right! And that is what I meant by:

Frye and Kieff have logged more minutes at Center than probably even Plumlee.

As long as Frye is around, we're stuck in that level of complacency. At the beginning of the season, I was afraid that he would be our primary Center with the game on the line.

But I don't think Frye is the reason we don't have a center. As a matter of fact when Plumlee played like a real center Frye played very well, offensively and defensively. During those stretches he even played well for short stretches as a backup center but once Plumlee disappeared Frye was exposed. I still believe the loss of Bledsoe played into the decline for both players but regardless, we're really coming up short at the center spot.

Frye is clearly not a minutes eater at center but I don't see how we can blame him for being our best option. You have to surround him with the right players just to survive his weaknesses at the four, at the five the other team is going to find him and expose him if he's out there for more than a couple of minutes especially if he has no help. I really like what Keef brings to the game but the same applies to him. He's not soft but his lack of length limits what he can do. But with a decent big man playing next to him I think he can be a pretty good player for us.

 

[BC867]

Frye is clearly not a minutes eater at center but I don't see how we can blame him for being our best option.

I am not blaming Frye. He is what he is and he does what he's told.

I was hoping that Shavlik would be given a chance at backup Center once he arrived.

Imagine if Okafor had healed and had taken over at Center. But, alas, he doesn't want to be here or have anything to do with the Suns, for that matter.