Suns vs. Houston - Who's better and why?

[SunsCat]

(Thought I'd make a little attempt to get things rolling here as the evening falls on us & everyone is starting to arrive home. A cut & paste from a topic I started over at phxsuns.net, speaking a bit of Team-A-Days a bit earlier. Enjoy! )

Yes, the boards CluthcCity.net and the boredom of summer known as the NBA Offseason has prompted me to start this discussion - and I invite the folks from ClutchCity to participate as well.

<B>Who is the better team?</B>

I'll start it off with a complete listing of each team's roster (if there is any discrepencies in the Rocket's roster, feel free to correct). A "*" indicates the player is a rookie:

Phoenix guards: Marbury, Leandro Barbosa*, Joe Johnson, Anfernee Hardaway & Casey Jacobsen.

Phoenix forwards: Shawn Marion, Zarko Cabarkapa*, Bo Outlaw, Amare Stoudemire & Tom Gugliotta.

Phoenix centers: Iakovos "Jake" Tsakalidis, Jake Voskuhl & Scott Williams

Projected Phoenix starters: 1 - Stephon Marbury, 2 - Anfernee Hardaway/Joe Johnson (it's open), 3 - Shawn Marion, 4 - Amare Stoudemire, 5 - Jake Tsakalidis

Projected Phoenix bench: Leandro Barbosa, Casey Jacobsen, Joe Johnson/Penny, Zarko Cabarkapa, Bo Outlaw, Jake Voskuhl & Scott Williams (Tom Gugliotta on IL)

----------------------------------------

Houston guards: Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Moocie Norris (? Is he being brought back?) & Eric Piatkowski.

Houston forwards: Eddie Griffin, Maurice Taylor, Adrian Griffin, Bostjan Nachbar, Glen Rice & Malick Badiane*.

Houston centers: Yao Ming & Kelvin Cato.

Projected Houston starters & bench: You tell me, as the roster is obviously still in flux (a few FA's apparently undecided, so I didn't list them).

In the words of Charles V, dis-cuss.

 

[Chaplin]

Regardless of their roster, a lot of people all over the place are touting Jeff Van Gundy as the coach. But, really, is JVG that much better than Rudy T? I guess defensively, JVG might be a better coach, but we're not talking about Phil Jackson versus Frank Johnson, are we?

 

[SunsCat]

I hear ya. I purposely left the coaches out of the discussion because JVG hasn't coached one single game for Houston yet. Who knows how he'll perform?

And on that note, I feel the one thing we definitely have over Houston is chemistry (and continuity for once), not to mention a top 3 assemblage of staff behind FJ. And, said staff knows exactly what role each has & knows exactly where they want this team to go - and the drive & focus with which to do it, IMO.

Ah! How cool is it that in just 2 short years we've gone from total disarray to the point of only needing fine tuning? Meanwhile, where are the Rockets?

 

[Chaplin]

No kidding. The Rockets have a good foundation, but it's built on gimmick, mainly an extremely overrated point guard who doesn't pass, a very short shooting guard who is a good scorer, and a huge Chinese dude.

I'm not sold on Eddie Griffin as the PF of the future for them either.

 

[SirStefan32]

One team that I am not afraid of is Houston.

They have a very overrated point guard, a couple of decent shooting guards, and a young center who will be a star one day.

 

[SunsCat]

<I>No kidding. The Rockets have a good foundation, but it's built on gimmick, mainly an extremely overrated point guard who doesn't pass, a very short shooting guard who is a good scorer,...</I>

Bingo, Chap'. THE ONE constant that Houston has had in it's 4 year playoff drought (post-Pippen) is that it has a backcourt that thinks only of themselves (Francis/Mobley). Truth be told, it's scary to think about what kind of impact Yao might have had this year if Francis & Mobley had fed him more often. If JVG can massage Francis' ego enough to run some offense through Yao (Yao, with his passing & playmaking abilities to go along with his awesome footwork in the post, is definitely capable), look out!

That's said, with Francis' ego, that's one hell of a big "if".

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SunsCat
<I>No kidding. The Rockets have a good foundation, but it's built on gimmick, mainly an extremely overrated point guard who doesn't pass, a very short shooting guard who is a good scorer,...</I>

Bingo, Chap'. THE ONE constant that Houston has had in it's 4 year playoff drought (post-Pippen) is that it has a backcourt that thinks only of themselves (Francis/Mobley). Truth be told, it's scary to think about what kind of impact Yao might have had this year if Francis & Mobley had fed him more often. If JVG can massage Francis' ego enough to run some offense through Yao (Yao, with his passing & playmaking abilities to go along with his awesome footwork in the post, is definitely capable), look out!

That's said, with Francis' ego, that's one hell of a big "if".

I also don't think that Yao Ming is the second coming of Shaq. I think he'll be a good player, but I see him as being closer to Vlade Divac than Shaq. (Rik Smits has always been a good comparison) I'm just waiting to see what kind of health problems he'll end up with (ankles, feet, whatever). I like Yao, but realistically I don't think he'll ever be superstar. But he seems like a really cool guy, and can be good for the NBA, until he's busted for pot in a couple years.

 

[fordronken]

I was never all that impressed with Tomjonavich or Van Gundy as a coach. Watch footage of either of these guys' teams in the finals and it makes you really wonder what they were doing. That being said, sometimes just cleaning house and bringing in a new staff takes the players out of their comfort zone and makes them work harder. Van Gundy always came across as a coach who is tougher with his players, and Tomjonavich as the opposite. We'll see what happens.

 

[Joe Mama]

The way I figure it last season the Phoenix Suns were a decent bench player away from a top 6 playoff seed. In fact one could argue that if they had just stayed healthy (Hardaway & Big Jake) they would have had one of those top 6 playoff seeds. The way I figure it if they can stay healthy and Cabarkapa contributes the Suns will be one of the top six playoff teams in the Western Conference this season. If not, they will be fighting for one of those last two spots... with the Houston Rockets.

The Houston Rockets are obviously better at Center. Yao Ming is probably the second-best Center in the NBA, and he should get better when JVG has the Rockets forcing the ball into the middle. I think that's probably the only position where the Houston Rockets are obviously better than the Phoenix Suns.

Regardless of how these teams matchup position by position few people outside of southern Texas would argue that the Rockets are better than the Phoenix Suns. Steve Francis may be the fan's all-star pick, but Marbury was a better player last year. I think he'll be better this year as well.

I think the Rockets are going to miss Posey's defense. Obviously Piatkowski is a better shooter, but he really does nothing else better. So far I don't think the Rockets have done much to improve their team over last year's roster. Like the Suns they'll be counting on another year's experience and chemistry to improve. They will also have different coaching they are hoping will help them.

I think the Phoenix Suns are much better than the Rockets at the forward position. Houston fans can completely overrated Griffin. It's a good thing New Jersey made poor draft picks with the other two picks they received for Griffin. Jefferson already looks a lot better than Griffin. Jason Collins is good, but if the Nets had taken Zach Randolph or Brendan Haywood at #18 and Tinsley or Parker at #23 it would look even more disastrous for Houston. I'm not sure what my point was with all of that except to say that it looks like a bad trade for Houston so far.

Oh well, I've rambled long enough. I do think the Phoenix Suns are quite a bit better than the Houston Rockets despite their close records last season. We'll see what happens with their new coaching situation.

Joe Mama

 

[SunsCat]

<I>I think the Rockets are going to miss Posey's defense. Obviously Piatkowski is a better shooter, but he really does nothing else better.</I>

I hear ya, Joe. IMO, they've done nothing but duplicate in acquiring Piatkowski when they already have Rice, although I like Pike a lot.

<I>The way I figure it last season the Phoenix Suns were a decent bench player away from a top 6 playoff seed. In fact one could argue that if they had just stayed healthy (Hardaway & Big Jake) they would have had one of those top 6 playoff seeds.</I>

Solid sentiment as well. In fact, my contention for Big Jake has been that the main reason he wasn't utilized enough when he came back was that by the time he was able to play, we were in the middle of a tight playoff race with a rotation that gelled, resulting in Big Jake getting shafted for playing time, thus resulting in Big Jake not being able to play himself back into shape, and etcetra, and etcetra, and etcetra... And with Penny (for once), we can have faith that at least his knee can hold up in his reduced role.

My God folks, I haven't been this excited about the prospects for our Suns since we went 8-0 in pre-season 1994 (with a roster featuring newly acquired Danny Manning - on that note, when is the last time you could buy Manning stats from that 1994-1995 season of 18 ppg, 7rpg & 3 apg OFF THE BENCH for $1 million? DAMN Joe Kleine for falling on Manning's left leg in practice in February, 1995!!!)!!!

 

[elindholm]

on that note, when is the last time you could buy Manning stats from that 1994-1995 season of 18 ppg, 7rpg & 3 apg OFF THE BENCH for $1 million?

The luxuries of title contenders. Malone will probably put up close to that for the Lakers, for about the same money.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

Big Jake wouldn't have done Sh*@@%^ last year.

 

[SunsCat]

I imagine so (numbers-wise), but Malone will be starting & getting more than the 31 minutes it took Manning to get those numbers cold off the bench.

BTW, Manning also shot 54.7% off the bench that year.

MAN! If only Joe Kleine hadn't fallen on Manning's left leg on February 6th, 1995 in practice... Before that, ALL the pundits were predicting a Magic/Suns Finals.

Also a little known fact: The ORIGINAL M & M boys were labeled on account of Manning & Majerle, thanks to their <B>49 PPG AVERAGE OFF THE BENCH TOGETHER between mid-December, 1994 through mid-January, 1995!!!</B>

We were 38-10 at the 1995 All-Star break, folks..............

 

[SunsCat]

Originally posted by PhiLLmattiC
Big Jake wouldn't have done Sh*@@%^ last year.

And why the hell is that, "Phil"?!?!?!?! Please elaborate.............

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Originally posted by PhiLLmattiC
Big Jake wouldn't have done Sh*@@%^ last year.

Not really sure I understand your statement. Jake could of helped the Suns out big time in the playoffs if he didn't have the back problems/injuries before the playoffs.
The Suns do not need him to post huge numbers. JAKE is a nice big body to clog the middle and effect shoots. As I recall from previous years of watching him, he usually starts the seaon off slow and picks it up at the end. If JAKE was playing like he did at the end of the season like in years past, there might have been a different senerio to the Suns/Spurs playoff match.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

Well not that he wouldn't do @#^#%^ but I couldn't see him doing anymore than what jason collins did for the nets. BTW Jason Collins is a lot better at setting picks.

 

[boisesuns]

i think if it's stricly who is the better "team" it is the suns. houston seems to be a lot of one on one basketball. the suns played more as a team last year and they will more so this year.

can van gundy change that? i'm not sure if rudy t did....houston basically can do two things. 1) let steve francis control the ball and run the show, or 2) feed it into yao every play and run the offense through him. they can win with one or the other, but not as often as they would need in the western conference. can van gundy balance the two?? if he can, they will be a better team, but it might mean they are ranked 7th instead of 9th in the west. they still need another player or two in my opinion.

right now i give the edge to the suns. during this season, the edge should become a gap

 

[Errntknght]

It will be interesting to see what van Gundy does with the Rockets - at both ends of the floor. I was surprised they let Posey get away as he seemed to be the kind of defender that JvG would like. Still with Yao Ming in the middle he ought to be able to make them into a strong defensive team.

At the offensive end I expect he'll get the offense to go thru Ming much more than it did last year. He's got a big advantage over Rudy last year because he knows going in what Ming can do on the floor. Besides that, Rudy loved one on one play and JvG is more of a 'teamwork' coach. I don't see him having a lot of trouble achieving balance between going thru Ming and drives by the guards - the real secret will be to use each threat to amplify the other.

The Suns are in a similar situation with Amare. He distorts the defense as soon as he touches the ball and they need to use that to make life easier for Marion, Marbs and others. FJ didn't seem to have any concept of doing that last year and I really don't expect him to grasp it this year. Eventually, the players will start using that on their own as they continue playing together but I expect the Suns to lag the Rockets considerably in that regard this year.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Errntknght
The Suns are in a similar situation with Amare. He distorts the defense as soon as he touches the ball and they need to use that to make life easier for Marion, Marbs and others. FJ didn't seem to have any concept of doing that last year and I really don't expect him to grasp it this year. Eventually, the players will start using that on their own as they continue playing together but I expect the Suns to lag the Rockets considerably in that regard this year. [/B]

IOW

"Our coach is an idiot that doesn't know the first thing about basketball. But eventually the dolts that we have for players will catch on to the obvious fact that when Amare touches the ball, good things happen for everyone--but don't expect them to see it very soon."

I'm sorry, I shouldn't put words in your mouth like that.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
IOW

"Our coach is an idiot that doesn't know the first thing about basketball. But eventually the dolts that we have for players will catch on to the obvious fact that when Amare touches the ball, good things happen for everyone--but don't expect them to see it very soon."

I'm sorry, I shouldn't put words in your mouth like that.

LOL

 

[Errntknght]

Hey, nothing I said indicated I thought the players were dolts!

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

I think the Rockets are going to miss Posey's defense. Obviously Piatkowski is a better shooter, but he really does nothing else better.

Joe Mama

Yes, and that's why they signed Adrian Griffin who is not much worse (if at all) defensively than Posey.

 

[slinslin]

Too bad they can't play Griffin and Piatkowski together instead of Posey....

The Rockets are not better than the Suns.

I like our bench this season better than the Rockets' and I like our starters much better.

I really don't like Mobley. I wouldn't say he is much better than Hardaway and Johnson could be better than him this season.

Yao Ming despite the hype hasn't shown me the killer instinct or "upside" that would make him significantly better this season.

What can he add to his game? He might be exhausted because he has to play for china.

I don't think that you can just give the ball more often to Ming and have Francis and Ming being better. Francis needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Their offense could be horrible if they decide to run it through Ming.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by slinslin
Too bad they can't play Griffin and Piatkowski together instead of Posey....

Nobody said that they can.

I do think that Griffin will start at SF and he isn't a significant downgrade defensively comparing to Posey.

 

[slinslin]

Adrian Griffin is only an average defender in my opinion. He gets some praise for his defense but at least while he was with the Mavericks I was unable to see why.

Anyway he will be a significant downgrade offensively.