Suns @ Warriors Tuesday game thread 5-11-2021

[Chaplin]

for this whole conversation you better make no mistake I’m 100% for trading him if it can bring you back KAT or Vucevic. I was driving that bus all season before the deadline.

We'd probably have to include Bridges for KAT, but not necessarily for Vucevic.

 

[Finito]

I just sit back and watch guys complain about him all day long when we’re bad. Guys say he’s the reason we’re bad when Ayton plays bad this whole team is bad

but would that mean when Ayton plays well this whole team is good???

but that would mean Ayton is responsible for the best Suns season in recent memory right.

Got to be right. I mean that’s what’s being said here. How can you be a bust if your the most important part of a team that’s the talk of the nba

aaah haa

oh wait when he plays well he’s a part of the whole team when he plays bad it’s just him bringing the whole team down alright I got it it’s a have my cake and eat it to situation.

 

[Finito]

But accepting that he won’t give effort is giving him a pass. It’s entirely within his control. The same as bookers mental meltdowns. Why don’t you just know who book is and give him a pass too?

note, I’m no book fanboy. I hold them both accountable. It’s just that Ayton’s failures are vastly more common, auspicious, and evidence a lack of competitive spirit whereas books read their heads less frequently and if anything evidence a fiery competitiveness that needs be better focused. I know of the two fact sets which I prefer.

so your saying they both suck

 

[Cheesebeef]

We'd probably have to include Bridges for KAT, but not necessarily for Vucevic.

Vucevic is too old. I’d think about Bridges.

if next year was:
CP3
Book
Crowder
PF - Someone solid
Towns

I’d give it a go.

The reality is that unless Ayton ever did take a big leap, this team as currently constructed is prob a year in, year out fighting for a 4 seed. Which make no mistake is miles ahead of where we’ve been, but that all falls apart the moment CP3 does or is gone.

 

[Cheesebeef]

so your saying they both suck

he’s saying they’re both flawed. Yet you only seem to bang on one of them and give the other a pass.

 

[Finito]

Vucevic is too old. I’d think about Bridges.

if next year was:
CP3
Book
Crowder
PF - Someone solid
Towns

I’d give it a go.

The reality is that unless Ayton ever did take a big leap, this team as currently constructed is prob a year in, year out fighting for a 4 seed. Which make no mistake is miles ahead of where we’ve been, but that all falls apart the moment CP3 does or is gone.

you know who I really want. Lou Dort

 

[Finito]

he’s saying they’re both flawed. Yet you only seem to bang on one of them and give the other a pass.

it’s not a pass what don’t you get.

 

[Cheesebeef]

it’s not a pass what don’t you get.

ok.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Calling the team below average when Ayton doesn't play well is DEFINITELY exaggeration. Come on. You actually compare us to the Sacramento Kings for gods sake.

Ayton doesn't play well MOST OF THE TIME. And we still have 40 wins.

I called the team below average when Ayton disappears, not when he fails to play well. You've even responded (and quoted) my posts where I made this point over and over and yet you continue to misrepresent my comments. Please stop doing that.

Without Ayton's effort on defense, we are a below average team. That's why we have 14 losses this season to teams that were below average or missing their best players. And that does not include our losses to teams that were missing non-star starters (Atlanta for example) or teams that have played the entire season without a key player (last night's loss for example).

When DA mails it in on defense, we are a below average team, even if he puts up a double double. His defense is critical to our success and his lack of intensity on defense is a significant factor in most of our losses.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I just sit back and watch guys complain about him all day long when we’re bad. Guys say he’s the reason we’re bad when Ayton plays bad this whole team is bad

but would that mean when Ayton plays well this whole team is good???

but that would mean Ayton is responsible for the best Suns season in recent memory right.

Got to be right. I mean that’s what’s being said here. How can you be a bust if your the most important part of a team that’s the talk of the nba

aaah haa

oh wait when he plays well he’s a part of the whole team when he plays bad it’s just him bringing the whole team down alright I got it it’s a have my cake and eat it to situation.

No that’s mistating things. I can only speak for myself, but I think it generally goes like this:

Ayton invisible - team can beat poor teams if everyone plays well. Can even beat occasional average teams if everyone plays great. Zero chance winning against slightly above average and better teams.

Ayton has below average game - team can beat poor teams with average play, but isn’t a cake walk. Tram can beat average teams with good play from others. Team can occasionally beat above average teams if they play great. Zero chance to beat playoff teams.

Ayton plays average - will beat poor teams. Will likely beat average teams with average play from rest of team. Will win 50%+ of games against above average teams with good play from rest of team. Will win some games against top teams when rest of team plays great.

Ayton plays above average - beat poor teams. Beat average teams. Beat above average teams even without great play from rest of team. Competitive with best teams and wins most if rest of team plays great.

Ayton beast mode (this is Bigfoot photo rare) - beat poor and average teams regardless of how rest of team plays. Win 75% against above average teams even with just average play from rest of team. Likely wins >50% against top teams with average play from rest of team and is a top contender with above average play from rest of team.

I also think the above gets skewed based on which end of the court his play is raised. If he’s only playing well on one end of the court the team performs much better when it’s on the defensive end and on the boards.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

so your saying they both suck

Lol. They both aren’t perfect players and have warts. But book has like a couple warts on his hands that he could get removed. Ayton looks like a Halloween witch and seems to choose to glue on more warts than are necessary.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

it’s not a pass what don’t you get.

I don’t get how you think it’s not a pass.

 

[AzStevenCal]

i still say we try to trade Ayton and pieces for Towns and just try to outscore everyone. Go out and get a good PF to put next to Towns and just try to Brooklyn Nets next year where our offense is just so overwhelming that it has a punchers chance to win it.

We'd have to strip the cupboard bare and greatly overpay because Ayton is still on his rookie deal (same with the other pieces we'd have to include).

 

[Mainstreet]

Wow I knew the defense had slipped but I hadn’t realized it completely fell apart and continued to ooze past mediocrity to just flat out bad.

If one goes back to the win over Utah game on April 30th, it's easy to see the decline in Suns defense afterwards with the exception of the second Knicks game.

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/phx

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think you don’t have a choice with Ayton. Once you draft him you’re kind of bound to him. The alternatives don’t bring you the necessary upside. Letting him walk doesn’t create a massive amount of cap space that would allow you to replace him with a key piece. And trading him likely nets you pennies on his “potential” dollar, so-to-speak. And those pennies likely end up with more cam Johnson’s and stix. Which means likely mediocrity-to-7 seed limbo. You almost have to bet on Ayton. The downside is similar mediocrity-to-7 seed (post Paul departure if not replaced with player of similar stature), while the upside for more hopefully still exists (even if the hope is slim)

I'd agree if he was the only one involved. But if we bomb out in the playoffs and that's the straw for Devin, I think we'd see CP opt out and Booker demand a trade. At that point, gambling on DA makes less sense. If DB is still committed though, I think we have to take the risk and pay Ayton a lot of money.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd agree if he was the only one involved. But if we bomb out in the playoffs and that's the straw for Devin, I think we'd see CP opt out and Booker demand a trade. At that point, gambling on DA makes less sense. If DB is still committed though, I think we have to take the risk and pay Ayton a lot of money.

man... that’s sounds like an insane plan. Does that mean paying him THIS off-season? They can’t do that.

reality is that if CP3 doesn’t opt out, and we don’t pay Ayton this off-season, next year could be the most keyed in Ayton will ever be because he will have something we know motivates him.. the possibility of a huge contract. Maybe even a chip on his shoulder for not extending him.

 

[Finito]

I don’t get how you think it’s not a pass.

how come Dario doesn’t do 360 windmill dunks during the game’s?

complaining about something a guys not isn’t going to make him who you want him to be no matter how much you complain.

should and could be are different than reality

 

[AzStevenCal]

man... that’s sounds like an insane plan. Does that mean paying him THIS off-season? They can’t do that.

reality is that if CP3 doesn’t opt out, and we don’t pay Ayton this off-season, next year could be the most keyed in Ayton will ever be because he will have something we know motivates him.. the possibility of a huge contract. Maybe even a chip on his shoulder for not extending him.

I can't think of a plan involving Ayton that doesn't feel a little insane.

As for motivation, I really believe he wants to be loved, he wants to be great and he wants money (big money). But how hard is he really willing to work in order to get any of those things? With what he's made so far and what he's sure to get as a free agent even if he doesn't step it up, he and his family will be set for generations if the money is handled properly.

 

[Mainstreet]

If I could have Booker on his good nights or Ayton on his good nights, I'd choose Ayton, he impacts the game in so many ways. And keep in mind, I'm a huge Booker fan. DA may not be the most disappointing player we've ever had but for me, he's easily the most frustrating.

And I have no idea how you get from where we were in the conversation to your last sentence. Seriously, what connection are you trying to draw? I've been talking about this team being overrated for more than 2 months now.

We are capable of beating any healthy team other than LAL or Brooklyn but we are easily capable of losing in the first round to any other team in the playoffs, including the play-in teams. Without active Ayton, we're roughly the Sacramento Kings. With DA fully engaged, we're roughly the Clippers. That's a huge swing and right now, I have no idea which DA we'll see in the postseason.

We agree, the Suns defensive decline is on the play of Ayton and Saric at backup center. The Suns essentially play small on ball most nights. They can't afford for either player not to step up offensively and defensively.

The trouble is both players have taken a step back.

 

[Cheesebeef]

how come Dario doesn’t do 360 windmill dunks during the game’s?

complaining about something a guys not isn’t going to make him who you want him to be no matter how much you complain.

should and could be are different than reality

And Booker isn’t going to be LeBron or Steph no matter how much you complain, but you still do it. None of us are banging on you to stop “crying”about Booker, so why do you feel the need to keep banging on us about the guy we’re disappointed in?

 

[Finito]

And Booker isn’t going to be LeBron or Steph no matter how much you complain, but you still do it. None of us are banging on you to stop “crying”about Booker, so why do you feel the need to keep banging on us about the guy we’re disappointed in?

you really want to compare how I talk about Booker to you and your brother on the Ayton train? Seriously?

Ayton isn’t a 2x all star either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can't think of a plan involving Ayton that doesn't feel a little insane.

As for motivation, I really believe he wants to be loved, he wants to be great and he wants money (big money). But how hard is he really willing to work in order to get any of those things? With what he's made so far and what he's sure to get as a free agent even if he doesn't step it up, he and his family will be set for generations if the money is handled properly.

i agree with your first statement. I also think the dangle of huge money is the only thing that can possibly get a full committed season out of him.

and if we only have one more season with CP3, might as well try that route with Ayton.

 

[Cheesebeef]

you really want to compare how I talk about Booker to you and your brother on the Ayton train? Seriously?

Ayton isn’t a 2x all star either.

forget it. Keep hammering away at us if it makes you feel better.

 

[taz02]

I don’t know if I’d call him the biggest disappoint in franchise history. Is he a star no? is a bum? No

all the crying in the world ain’t going to change who he is those raised expectations are your fault. I don’t look at Ayton and see leader I don’t care what he should be or could be I care what he is. That’s all pie in the sky would of should of stuff. You keep looking for him to be something he’s not and that’s just setting your self up for disappointment. He’s a good role player that’s it.

and no Booker and Ayton aren’t on the same level when it comes to being accountable. Booker is our star he is our leader he is our home grown all star. All the stuff you complain about Ayton for is what you need to complain about Booker for.

your star can’t go “fifth grader” at anytime. This is a star driven league your not going to go as far as Ayton takes you he’s a role player your going to go as far as Booker takes you. Steph doesnt have mental breakdowns, lebron doesn’t that’s the difference. So it’s not well at least he scores and excuses for him because you happen to like him or for whatever reason. This team will only go as far as Booker will take it on the court and in the locker room he’s the leader he’s the star.

like I said This is a complete team meltdown TEAM and when you fail you don’t fail from the middle you fail from the top down. If my guys fail it’s on me. I blame me I don’t point fingers

Who exactly is DA? That's the frustrating part, at least for me.

Is he the guy that averaged 21ppg and 12.5rpg during an 18 game stretch last season that included a 26 point 21 rebound game and a 28 and 19 game. Or, is he the shy timid child we have seen lately?

 

[Finito]

Who exactly is DA? That's the frustrating part, at least for me.

Is he the guy that averaged 21ppg and 12.5rpg during an 18 game stretch last season that included a 26 point 21 rebound game and a 28 and 19 game. Or, is he the shy timid child we have seen lately?

Derick Coleman.

all the talent in the world but his heart just ain’t in it.