Team USA - Shawn and Amare

[thegrahamcrackr]

Chris Paul was on sports talk radio today and the hosts asked him about Amare. He said that Amare was progressing really well and that everybody is going to be amazed at how good of a shooter he is. Chris Paul was really impressed by Amare's shot and his extended range.

I have watched Amare shoot for long periods of time since his injury about half a dozen times. His shot is amazing, and most of the NBA hasn't seen it - although I can't imagine it counts as being surprising after it was hyped for a year...

But like Cheese said, they problem is the lack of explosiveness - not the shot. One thing I forgot to mention, Amare was wearing ankle weights during the practice. Add in that he hasn't missed an entire practice, and does the 2 a days with the team - I think it is safe to say the knee is healed. Mentally he definitely isn't there though, you could really tell when they were doing their stretches. Anything that required putting weight or pressure on the knee he would do about half as much as he did with his other knee.

I am still think Amare will come back an All-star at the least. It just will be a different version of Amare than we saw the first few years.

 

[Nasser22]

I wonder how much explosiveness he'll have by the end of the year when it really matters. That'll be almost 2 years after the surgery. I think he'll do a good job this year. No more dunks overAdonal Foyle but he should be better all-around with some dunks added in.

 

[F-Dog]

In other WC news, Boris is apparently (by the stats) putting up a string of impact-free performances with the French NT. He's probably just trying to get his teammates up to speed.

http://www.galanissportsdata.com/Galanis/Basketball/Acropolis/2006/a1day.asp?d=3

 

[boisesuns]

I have watched Amare shoot for long periods of time since his injury about half a dozen times. His shot is amazing, and most of the NBA hasn't seen it - although I can't imagine it counts as being surprising after it was hyped for a year...

But like Cheese said, they problem is the lack of explosiveness - not the shot. One thing I forgot to mention, Amare was wearing ankle weights during the practice. Add in that he hasn't missed an entire practice, and does the 2 a days with the team - I think it is safe to say the knee is healed. Mentally he definitely isn't there though, you could really tell when they were doing their stretches. Anything that required putting weight or pressure on the knee he would do about half as much as he did with his other knee.

I am still think Amare will come back an All-star at the least. It just will be a different version of Amare than we saw the first few years.

Thanks Graham,

It's nice to see these first hand accounts. Anything else is just speculaton or opinions drawn from reading other people's articles. I think as we all get a chance to see Amare in gametime sitations, it will be obvious how much he has to go and how his game as changed. (I'm sure some livley discussions will come out once more people see him play)

Hopefully he'll get some playing time in the next few USA games to see how hew does. All most of use have seen is the scrimmage and some summer leauge games. If he's better than that, that's encouraging. If he's able to shoot well, it might be a bonus for the suns offense.

 

[devilfan02]

Just heard on Bickley and MJ this morning that Colangelo said it would be a long shot for Amare to make the final roster for the trip to China. He also said that Boris and his agent are rumored to be demanding Nene type money (10 mill per year) which we couldn't afford due to the luxury tax. They metioned that if Sarver won't pay him that and therefore let Diaw walk then they would resign Barbosa. I still can't believe how badly the Nuggets screwed the market by signining Nene to that rediculous deal. Colangelo said that Amares knee isn't ready yet as his explosiveness and elevation aren't there yet. They quoted Amare as saying he's not yet comfortable while in traffic in the lane.

Let me remind everyone that this is all coming from Bickley. I don't know how you all feel but I don't believe anything he says about the Suns. He has had an EXTREME personal vandetta against the Suns FO ever since we traded JJ to the Hawks. Everytime I hear him talking about the Suns, it's in a horrible fashion and it makes me sick. First of all, why doesn't he get over JJ as Boris proved he's just as valuable, if not more than, JJ. I'm not gonna rant anymore but I hope I'm not alone on this topic. The Suns have been the most successful AZ sports franchise (besides the Dbacks 2001 WS) on the court and in the community and Bickley talks about them like their the worst team in the league. He makes me sick

 

[The Commish]

Delayed takeoff for Amaré

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 3, 2006 12:00 AM

LAS VEGAS - Amaré Stoudemire was accustomed to flying when he put on the NBA's most dynamic aerial displays before two knee surgeries.

He was the show's most fearless pilot but he probably won't make the next major flight. Stoudemire likely will not be among the 12 players of this week's 15 USA Basketball campers to get tickets to the World Championship.

Tonight's exhibition game against Puerto Rico, to be shown live on ESPN2 at 8, appears to be Stoudemire's final major test in his summer comeback program. It kicked into gear with his first five-on-five game five weeks ago and continued with lukewarm reviews at the Vegas Summer League and USA Basketball camp.

"Chances are, when we leave at the end of the week, that would probably be the end of it and that we wouldn't take him on the trip because he's just not physically far enough long," said USA Basketball senior men's team managing director Jerry Colangelo, who is also the Suns' chief executive officer and chairman. "But this was good for him. He did play up."

Stoudemire may have missed USA Basketball's exhibition tour in Korea and China and World Championship competition in Japan anyway. His first son (second child) is due in about a week. Family considerations aside, Stoudemire did not progress enough to help a team going for gold.

The Suns All-Star even sat out Wednesday's practice with a sore hip, which was unrelated to his knee troubles.

Stoudemire's lag continues to have more to do with a lack of his trademark explosiveness on the court. Healthwise, he has no swelling or pain in his surgically repaired knees.

"It is frustrating," Stoudemire said. "It's tough to take a back seat when you're used to being in the front seat. It's a matter of willpower. It's more of a mental thing when you know you're the head of your class and a knee surgery sets you back. I will be back to the head of the class."

Stoudemire had one standout day, the final intrasquad scrimmage of the camp's first week here, but is usually tentative to let go on the court. That is why he is playing this summer. The Suns would have a perplexing situation if he were going through these awkward stages, which he puts at 70 percent, during training camp in Europe.

"People have delusions if they think he's going to be 100 percent in October," Colangelo said. "In all likelihood, it's going to take him longer than that but as long as he's progressing and moving forward, it just takes time. It's not for lack of effort.

"He was given clearance. Now, it's a mental thing in my opinion."

For example, Stoudemire tried windmill dunks in practice to see how high he can get as he jumps from outside the paint.

"But as far as in traffic, I'm not comfortable yet," he said.

With Shawn Marion out of the mix due to knee pain and Stoudemire likely heading home for good, the Suns' ties to the team will lie with Colangelo, assistant coach Mike D'Antoni and the ties to guard Joe Johnson, who has played like a superstar in Las Vegas.

Now, Stoudemire will leave knowing what he needs to play like a star again.

"He's still got a lot of work to do in the weight room," D'Antoni said. "To get his pop back, he's got a ways to go. This has been great for him just to show him where he's at and the work he's got to do.

 

[Mainstreet]

Even if I try to put a positive spin on the article concerning Amare, it does not sound encouraging. IMO, the Suns need to pick up a quality player... somehow... to add depth to the 4/5. They need to do what it takes, hopefully giving up as little as possible besides picks and the TE. However, likely any move would ultimately involve KT, especially because of his salary over the next two seasons. Also I'm not confident KT's wheels will hold up either, the way the Suns run.

I wish I had the answer.

 

[JS22]

Even if I try to put a positive spin on the article concerning Amare, it does not sound encouraging. IMO, the Suns need to pick up a quality player... somehow... to add depth to the 4/5. They need to do what it takes, hopefully giving up as little as possible besides picks and the TE. However, likely any move would ultimately involve KT, especially because of his salary over the next two seasons. Also I'm not confident KT's wheels will hold up either, the way the Suns run.

I wish I had the answer.

Thought I'd ask you this, as well as anyone else:

Would you, knowing what you know now, pull the trigger on the reported Gasol + 1st round pick for Amare trade? D'antoni confirmed this himself, right before the draft. I remember him saying that he basically laughed and hung up the phone.

Gasol would be a hell of a fit in this system.

 

[Mainstreet]

Thought I'd ask you this, as well as anyone else:

Would you, knowing what you know now, pull the trigger on the reported Gasol + 1st round pick for Amare trade? D'antoni confirmed this himself, right before the draft. I remember him saying that he basically laughed and hung up the phone.

Gasol would be a hell of a fit in this system, and is a legit 7 footer.

Yes, I would. Gasol would have been awesome in a Suns uniform. But I also caught a lot af criticism for my support on another hypothetical trade with Toronto where the Suns would have traded Amare for Bosh and the #1 pick. I fear Amare may never be the same.

The haters, please spare me, as this is only my opinion.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, I would. Gasol would have been awesome in a Suns uniform. But I also caught a lot af criticism for my support on another hypothetical trade with Toronto where the Suns would have traded Amare for Bosh and the #1 pick. I fear Amare may never be the same.

The haters, please spare me, as this is only my opinion.

at this point, I'd dothe Bosh deal, hell, I'ddo it straight up - but no way in hell would Itouch Gasol - that would make us the 2000-2004 Dallas Mavs, only with a much older Nash - those teams were complete pretenders. No thanks.

And IF the above is true about Boris, then I don't know what to say. 10 million is cheap for a guy with Boris' skills. But hey, I guess we don't learn from our past mistakes... great.

 

[Cheesebeef]

andy - which knee is it that's bothering him? The micro'ed one or the other one? Sheesh, I can't believe we have to talk about BOTH knees. I have a really bad feeling about Amare - we've been hearing 70% for the laast month - when/how is that going to change - he seems to be stuck in neutral right now.

I still, to this day, can't believe they tried bringing him back mid-season.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Thought I'd ask you this, as well as anyone else:

Would you, knowing what you know now, pull the trigger on the reported Gasol + 1st round pick for Amare trade? No D'antoni confirmed this himself, right before the draft. I remember him saying that he basically laughed and hung up the phone. Good

Gasol would be a hell of a fit in this system.

Everything is gong to work out fine, many will be eating amare crow, of course there will always be haters.

 

[devilfan02]

andy - which knee is it that's bothering him? The micro'ed one or the other one? Sheesh, I can't believe we have to talk about BOTH knees. I have a really bad feeling about Amare - we've been hearing 70% for the laast month - when/how is that going to change - he seems to be stuck in neutral right now.

I still, to this day, can't believe they tried bringing him back mid-season.

It sounds like his knees are fine, it's more of a mental thing. From the above article:

"Stoudemire's lag continues to have more to do with a lack of his trademark explosiveness on the court. Healthwise, he has no swelling or pain in his surgically repaired knees."

It's prob more of rust and D'antoni/Colangelo making sure he'll be ready for the NBA season. Sounds like he also needs to get in the weight room and get some strength back in his legs.

 

[F-Dog]

Microfracture is a two-year recovery process. The question for next season has always been whether Amare can be effective at 80%--he was ineffective at 60% last season, but part of that was an inability (or unwillingness) to make adjustments in his game.

IMO, the Suns need to pick up a quality player... somehow... to add depth to the 4/5. They need to do what it takes, hopefully giving up as little as possible besides picks and the TE. However, likely any move would ultimately involve KT, especially because of his salary over the next two seasons. Also I'm not confident KT's wheels will hold up either, the way the Suns run.

The Suns have known they would need another 4/5 since before the draft. I don't know how they had originally expected to take care of the problem.

I believe the team's TE expires in less than two weeks.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Everything is gong to work out fine, many will be eating amare crow, of course there will always be haters.

this is such stupid inflammatory crap - do you REALLY think there are Amare HATERS here? Good lord - the stupidity of such statements is beyond me. Just because people worry about a guy who's had a knee surgery that's CRUSHED careers and then had to have ANOTHER surgery on the opposite knee (and as far as the "he was overcompensating" reason for that, anyone know any other player who had micro-fracture then had knee surgery on the other one for "overcompensating") - doesn't make them haters. It makes them concerned and for good reason.

 

[devilfan02]

this is such stupid inflammatory crap - do you REALLY think there are Amare HATERS here? Good lord - the stupidity of such statements is beyond me. Just because people worry about a guy who's had a knee surgery that's CRUSHED careers and then had to have ANOTHER surgery on the opposite knee (and as far as the "he was overcompensating" reason for that, anyone know any other player who had micro-fracture then had knee surgery on the other one for "overcompensating") - doesn't make them haters. It makes them concerned and for good reason.

Especially when we just maxed him out and our Championship run depends solely on the health of his knees. As you said, there are no Amare haters here yet fans who want to see the most versatile/explosive big man regain his form

 

[Nash]

I assume you mean 2 years is the minimum period for a complete recovery, IF one happens ?

 

[Nash]

I read about the microfracture surgery in Wikipedia and put in some excerpts below which will help us understand the surgery better.

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Procedure

The surgeon makes a tiny, quarter-inch incision on the affected knee and inserts a long thin scope (arthroscope). This scope allows the surgeon to work directly on the joint area. First, any calcified cartilage is removed.

Why is it called microfracture?

Then, the surgeon uses an ice pick-like tool called an awl to punch very small holes (“microfractures”) in the bone near the defective cartilage. Blood and bone marrow (which contains stem cells) seep out of the holes, creating a blood clot that releases cartilage-building cells. The fractures are treated as an injury by the body, which is why it results in new, replacement cartilage.[6]

Microfracture surgery can help a patient prevent a partial or total knee replacement. It is also used to treat pain in the knee from cartilage injuries, as well as early arthritis of the knee, lesions on the kneecap, degenerative chondral lesions of the knee, and traumatic injuries to the cartilage. It does have limitations, and is less effective in treating older patients, overweight patients, or cartilage damage that is larger than 2.5 cm.

Current studies have shown a success rate of 75 to 80 percent among patients 45 years of age or younger, even among professional athletes.[3][5] With the help of physical therapy, patients can often return to sports (or other intense activities) in about 4 months. However, this is a best-case scenario and depends on the severity of the cartilage damage (and any other conditions existing in the knee). Normal patients and professional athletes who play at the highest level however are quite different, as Chris Webber, who underwent the surgery, has stated that a full recovery in 4 months is nearly impossible. Webber returned to the NBA eight months after his surgery but did not feel "like himself" until a few years later

Note the mention on "severity of damage". We know that Amare had been experiencing soreness for quite a while that summer before they decided to look deeply into the problem (atleast that's what I gathered from Jack McCallum's report on his time with the Suns).
I wonder how badly his cartilage was torn/injured when he went in for surgery. Guess Kenyon Martin's injury was far more severe, since he's not been able to make a solid comeback after his surgeries.

The list includes many NBA players such as Webber, Allan Houston, Penny Hardaway, Zach Randolph, Jamal Mashburn, Kenyon Martin, and Jason Kidd. Many NFL players (including Bruce Smith and Stephen Davis) have also needed the surgery.
Partially because of the high level of stress placed on the knees by these athletes, the surgery is not a panacea and results have been mixed. Houston, Mashburn, and Hardaway's careers all effectively ended after they underwent the surgery. Martin has only been able to play sporadically in the 2005-06 NBA season. However, many players such as Kidd, Webber, and Randolph have been able to return at or near their pre-surgery form.

In October 2005, young star Amaré Stoudemire of the Phoenix Suns underwent perhaps the highest-profile microfracture surgery to date.

A personal anecdote on the baker's cyst:

I injured my knee 10 years back while playing cricket (not the dart game , I was playing REAL cricket). The ball is as hard or harder than a baseball and has a sharper seam that projects from the surface, hence making the bounce unpredictable. My right knee cap got partially moved and my knee was swollen like a pumpkin...almost After 2 months of bed rest waiting for the fluid accumulation to subside, I got back to moving around slowly and was back in shape to start playing again in a while. But one thing people around me noticed was my involuntary tendency to favor the left leg while walking or just standing. It was so hard to start using both legs normally.

Whenever I exerted too much pressure on the injured right leg for extended periods, the knee would swell up (which I have learned is what Amare referred to as baker's cyst).

10 years later, after having being in good enough shape to start for my undergrad college basketball team(5 yrs back); when I look at my legs to compare them, there is a distinct difference in their girths from the thighs down to my ankle. The injured leg is thinner, the muscles are thinner due to atrophy and I've started using my left leg as the anchor whenever there is a situation that needs me to support myself on one leg (kicking in soccer, leaning over to reach stuff etc.). I don't think I will ever do enough exercises dedicated to making my right leg stronger.

But having been through this crap, I can understand Amare's tendency to be tentative while taking off with the injured knee. Its just a thing that happens involuntarily, something ingrained in the mind.

 

[Cheesebeef]

ugh - every time I readabout microfracture it makes me sick. The only guy who's come back from it in decent in form is Kidd, maybe Randolph - but neither of those guys' games were as dependent on explosion and quickness like Amare's was. To throw Chris Webber in the mix as "successful", just shows how few successful guys there really are. That guy is a total shell of what he once was.

 

[F-Dog]

I assume you mean 2 years is the minimum period for a complete recovery, IF one happens ?

Yes.

 

[Chaplin]

Of course, their are huge differences in their surgeries and Amare's. Not to say Amare will recover 100%, but you can't ignore those differences.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Of course, their are huge differences in their surgeries and Amare's. Not to say Amare will recover 100%, but you can't ignore those differences.

I'll believe it when I see it - until then, I'd rather go with the chalk, expect nothing and be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong. I've gotten my hopes up with different players coming of this sugery before (Penny, Wadsworth). It's like the President says: Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice... uh... you won't get fooled again.

 

[Chaplin]

I'll believe it when I see it - until then, I'd rather go with the chalk, expect nothing and be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong. I've gotten my hopes up with different players coming of this sugery before (Penny, Wadsworth). It's like the President says: Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice... uh... you won't get fooled again.

Except the President has been fooled thousands of times and still doesn't get it.

I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised. I understand the fears, although from every single report, anything said stresses that the knees are fine, it's more of a mental and conditioning issue right now. If that's true, then that is a terrific sign--if not, well, then obviously that's bad. But like I've said before, I'm not going to live my life according to a negative feeling about his knees. If I'm deluding myself, then so be it, but it's like the existance of aliens--unless I see concrete proof, I'll assume that the pain from the knee problem doesn't exist and it's like everyone close to the situation says--mental and conditioning.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except the President has been fooled thousands of times and still doesn't get it.

I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised.

me too.

But like I've said before, I'm not going to live my life according to a negative feeling about his knees.

This isn't meant to pick a fight with you Chap, but I've never understood these type of comments in general. I love the Suns, but my life has nothing to do with them - plain and simple. It always seems weird to me when people throw the "I'm not going to let it affect my life negatively" card down, as if people who are concerned are thinking about this 24/7 and letting it depress them. Believe me - there's plenty more things in the world to be excited about and even more in the world to be depressed about than Amare Stoudemire's knees.

 

[Chaplin]

me too.



This isn't meant to pick a fight with you Chap, but I've never understood these type of comments in general. I love the Suns, but my life has nothing to do with them - plain and simple. It always seems weird to me when people throw the "I'm not going to let it affect my life negatively" card down, as if people who are concerned are thinking about this 24/7 and letting it depress them. Believe me - there's plenty more things in the world to be excited about and even more in the world to be depressed about than Amare Stoudemire's knees.

I think it's just a response to the incredible negativity, that's all. I've guessed over the years that your negativity is not as extreme as you make it out to be, so no worries there.

And I didn't want to infer that the condition of Amare's knees affects your life any which way. For me, the Suns are an obssession, and hence a huge part of life. I want them to succeed just as much as the next guy. Of course, them NOT winning the title or Amare being injured isn't going to make me lose a job or break up with a girl (or maybe it will!), but I hope you see what I mean.

That said, I hope he improves exponentially in the next 3 months, which is a long time. And I for one hope he doesn't go to Japan.