Team USA - Shawn and Amare

[thegrahamcrackr]

andy - which knee is it that's bothering him?

He is not putting the full pressure on his mircofracture knee

 

[boisesuns]

Thought I'd ask you this, as well as anyone else:

Would you, knowing what you know now, pull the trigger on the reported Gasol + 1st round pick for Amare trade? D'antoni confirmed this himself, right before the draft. I remember him saying that he basically laughed and hung up the phone.

Gasol would be a hell of a fit in this system.

Gasol is softer than a twinkie on a hot sidewalk.

 

[Chaplin]

Amare still has a ton of value in the league, or else he wouldn't have a) been invited to Team USA tryouts, or b) even made it to the top 15. (Although Shawn Marion's injury might have had something to do with that)

 

[Joe Mama]

Especially when we just maxed him out and our Championship run depends solely on the health of his knees. As you said, there are no Amare haters here yet fans who want to see the most versatile/explosive big man regain his form

am I the only one who doesn't agree with this? Last season they were a Raja Bell injury away from the finals and a great shot at a championship. Now they did have some good fortune when it came to the playoff seeding, but let's not forget they also lost Kurt Thomas.

This year when they've kept the same basic group of players and added a backup point guard. Even if Amare Stoudemire is only 80% the whole year this team is better than last year's. If Amare Stoudemire is even at 90-95% by the playoffs I think they are the team to beat. Still, I believe if Amare Stoudemire doesn't play a game for the Phoenix Suns next season they still have a chance at a championship. It would just be much better with a healthy Amare Stoudemire.

If the Phoenix Suns want to try to bargain Boris Diaw down a little bit and it's fine with me. However if he's asking for Nene money and they let him go to restricted free agency I'm going to be pissed. This team is going to be in luxury tax territory anyways in 2007-08. Heck, I would rather let Barbosa walk or traded him to give Boris Diaw $10 million more over the life of his contract.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

Amare still has a ton of value in the league, or else he wouldn't have a) been invited to Team USA tryouts, or b) even made it to the top 15. (Although Shawn Marion's injury might have had something to do with that)

although Marion's injury MIGHT have had something to do with that? Come on now Chap.

Again - I ask if anyone here actually thinks THIS Amare would have made the 15 if not for JC running the entire ship? JC knows how important Amare's ego is. He's the one who got Amare out of his funk during his rehab earlier this year. I truly believe Jerry loves the kid and wants Amare to be his lasting legacy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

am I the only one who doesn't agree with this? Last season they were a Raja Bell injury away from the finals and a great shot at a championship. Now they did have some good fortune when it came to the playoff seeding, but let's not forget they also lost Kurt Thomas.

This year when they've kept the same basic group of players and added a backup point guard. Even if Amare Stoudemire is only 80% the whole year this team is better than last year's. If Amare Stoudemire is even at 90-95% by the playoffs I think they are the team to beat. Still, I believe if Amare Stoudemire doesn't play a game for the Phoenix Suns next season they still have a chance at a championship. It would just be much better with a healthy Amare Stoudemire.

If the Phoenix Suns want to try to bargain Boris Diaw down a little bit and it's fine with me. However if he's asking for Nene money and they let him go to restricted free agency I'm going to be pissed. This team is going to be in luxury tax territory anyways in 2007-08. Heck, I would rather let Barbosa walk or traded him to give Boris Diaw $10 million more over the life of his contract.

Joe

I really think using last year as an example is tough to do for a couple reasons. 1) the seeding played a HUGE part in why we got so far 2) Yes we lost KT, but he wasn't a part of the team that almost beat Dallas - TT was - there were two radically different teams that we had last year. The KT Suns teams lost to Dallas twice, while the TT Suns teams beat Dallas 3 straight times with Raja. The matchups were different from team to team and last year's Suns team couldn't beat EVERYONE and that's what a Championship team needs to be able to do - especially know that the playoff seedings are back to what they should be.

Bottom line - without Amare, this team is what last year's team was - a VERY dark horse, and an older dark horse to boot. It's a team that doesn't matchup well with Dallas and matches up decently with SA, but even then, that's assuming health and we haven't seen KT make it through an entire season playing at our pace.

I do totally agree with you on Diaw though.

 

[devilfan02]

am I the only one who doesn't agree with this? Last season they were a Raja Bell injury away from the finals and a great shot at a championship. Now they did have some good fortune when it came to the playoff seeding, but let's not forget they also lost Kurt Thomas.

This year when they've kept the same basic group of players and added a backup point guard. Even if Amare Stoudemire is only 80% the whole year this team is better than last year's. If Amare Stoudemire is even at 90-95% by the playoffs I think they are the team to beat. Still, I believe if Amare Stoudemire doesn't play a game for the Phoenix Suns next season they still have a chance at a championship. It would just be much better with a healthy Amare Stoudemire.

If the Phoenix Suns want to try to bargain Boris Diaw down a little bit and it's fine with me. However if he's asking for Nene money and they let him go to restricted free agency I'm going to be pissed. This team is going to be in luxury tax territory anyways in 2007-08. Heck, I would rather let Barbosa walk or traded him to give Boris Diaw $10 million more over the life of his contract.

Joe

We all know we are a contender with or without Amare. However, our big man depth was hurt with the loss of TT and saying KT will be healthy at the end of the year is a major assumption. If we don't have Amare it will be very tough. We had to go to game 7 in the first 2 rounds for crying out loud. It's very hard to win a championship playing that many games in a short period of time. Plus, the way we play our big men get into foul trouble fairly quick and they also tire more easily. Depth is essential in the playoffs and without Amare (and TT) we would be in trouble. I'm not going to get into how healthy we need (percentages) him but he is a necessity if we want to go the distance. Marks and Burke def won't cut it

If we did sign Barbosa, I don't know what to think about the Diaw situation. It seems that the Suns have continually asked players the last couple years to take discounts and have repeatedly got spurrned. The nuggets completely screwed the market and now we are left with Diaw wanting that much money. It's gonna come down to either Marion or Diaw and I can't believe Sarver let it get to this......

 

[Chaplin]

although Marion's injury MIGHT have had something to do with that? Come on now Chap.

Again - I ask if anyone here actually thinks THIS Amare would have made the 15 if not for JC running the entire ship? JC knows how important Amare's ego is. He's the one who got Amare out of his funk during his rehab earlier this year. I truly believe Jerry loves the kid and wants Amare to be his lasting legacy.

15 players out of 350. Please keep that in mind.

 

[Chaplin]

I really think using last year as an example is tough to do for a couple reasons. 1) the seeding played a HUGE part in why we got so far 2) Yes we lost KT, but he wasn't a part of the team that almost beat Dallas - TT was - there were two radically different teams that we had last year. The KT Suns teams lost to Dallas twice, while the TT Suns teams beat Dallas 3 straight times with Raja. The matchups were different from team to team and last year's Suns team couldn't beat EVERYONE and that's what a Championship team needs to be able to do - especially know that the playoff seedings are back to what they should be.

Bottom line - without Amare, this team is what last year's team was - a VERY dark horse, and an older dark horse to boot. It's a team that doesn't matchup well with Dallas and matches up decently with SA, but even then, that's assuming health and we haven't seen KT make it through an entire season playing at our pace.

I do totally agree with you on Diaw though.

Um, let's look at last season, shall we? Besides Dallas and San Antonio (and us), who would you say was the 4th best team of the Western Conference Playoffs? The Los Angeles Clippers. The way the Lakers played us, I would have rather face any of the Sacramento/Memphis/Denver trilogy.

So in essence, seeding did NOT help us except to let us avoid San Antonio or Dallas in an earlier round. Instead, we faced the 4th and possibly the 5th best teams in the playoffs, whereas Dallas and San Antonio each had worse opponents.

Make no mistake: We overachieved, but our road to the Western Finals was no picnic either. I wish people would stop underrating the quality of those two opponents.

 

[Cheesebeef]

15 players out of 350. Please keep that in mind.

again - you didn't answer my question. If JC wasn't involved, do you think Amare makes this 15 man cut? You also have to take into consideration that wayyyy down the line, in maybe two years when we actually have to go to the Olympics, you really think Team USA would have enjoyed goign to Amare after they spurned him this year?

There's more to just "Amare made the team. That MUST mean he's still really good!" It's quite naive not to take into account the politics that must be played with the whole Olympics thing, especially when so many of our guys flat out rejected team USA in the last couple big events and we got slaughtered.

Besides Chap - using the 15 players out of 350 - I guess Bruce Bowen and Brad Miller, Shane Battier should then be considered rarified air as well... come on man. That's simplistic arguing and nothing more. Certain players are there for certain reasons - but I guess using your rational, those guys are mega-studs. Sorry, you can't just throw something like that out there without considering what's below the surface on that argument.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

again - you didn't answer my question. If JC wasn't involved, do you think Amare makes this 15 man cut?

Yes. He made it by default pretty much. There was no way that Morrison or Ridnour were going to make this cut (the only two people to get cut). As soon as Shawn pulled out, Amare became the 15th man by default.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

am I the only one who doesn't agree with this? Last season they were a Raja Bell injury away from the finals and a great shot at a championship. Now they did have some good fortune when it came to the playoff seeding, but let's not forget they also lost Kurt Thomas.

You could also argue that they were a Lamar Odom brainfart away from getting bounced in the second round or a Mike Dunleavy ******** substitution away from getting bounced in the second round and those teams were marginal at best. Complaining about poor luck in the WCF doesn't mean much considering it took a tremendous amount of good luck just to get there.

This year when they've kept the same basic group of players and added a backup point guard. Even if Amare Stoudemire is only 80% the whole year this team is better than last year's. If Amare Stoudemire is even at 90-95% by the playoffs I think they are the team to beat. Still, I believe if Amare Stoudemire doesn't play a game for the Phoenix Suns next season they still have a chance at a championship. It would just be much better with a healthy Amare Stoudemire.

Not sure how you think this considering even mediocre big men had their way with the Suns in the postseason last year and the Mavs absolutely steamrolled us. How you forget the Mavs were beating the Suns pretty handily in Game 1 with a heathy Raja Bell until a miracle stole the game. Heaven forbid we played the Spurs, they would have been lucky just to win one quarter. No Amare = No Championship. An 80% Amare and maybe they get there but another postseason with Diaw in the middle means no championship. I'm not counting on KT because everything seems to be pointed at them trading KT and shedding his salary.

If the Phoenix Suns want to try to bargain Boris Diaw down a little bit and it's fine with me. However if he's asking for Nene money and they let him go to restricted free agency I'm going to be pissed. This team is going to be in luxury tax territory anyways in 2007-08. Heck, I would rather let Barbosa walk or traded him to give Boris Diaw $10 million more over the life of his contract.

Agreed. Players like Barbosa (undersized SGs who play little defense and provide energy off the bench) are a dime a dozen around the NBA where athletic point forwards who can score and rebound are very rare and are not available for MLE or trade.

 

[mkapp]

Looks like Amare is done in Vegas. I just read on Yahoo Sports, that Amare has been cut from the US team prior to the Asia trip.

 

[arthurracoon]

You could also argue that they were a Lamar Odom brainfart away from getting bounced in the second round or a Mike Dunleavy ******** substitution away from getting bounced in the second round and those teams were marginal at best. Complaining about poor luck in the WCF doesn't mean much considering it took a tremendous amount of good luck just to get there.

as well as a tim thomas shot from losing in the first round or a kobe shot (end of regulation in game 6) from losing in the first round

 

[Chaplin]

Besides Chap - using the 15 players out of 350 - I guess Bruce Bowen and Brad Miller, Shane Battier should then be considered rarified air as well... come on man. That's simplistic arguing and nothing more. Certain players are there for certain reasons - but I guess using your rational, those guys are mega-studs. Sorry, you can't just throw something like that out there without considering what's below the surface on that argument.

It's not like they chose these players from out of a hat. Come on now. What's the point of a national team if they pick mediocre players? Should they pick Jake Voskuhl simply because he has a penchant for fouling? Or Smush Parker? Or Marcus Banks? Or Al Jefferson? Why pick Amare over 95% of the league? You can't honestly think it's because of simple favortism, can you?

 

[nowagimp]

We had to go to game 7 in the first 2 rounds for crying out loud. It's very hard to win a championship playing that many games in a short period of time. Plus, the way we play our big men get into foul trouble fairly quick and they also tire more easily. Depth is essential in the playoffs and without Amare (and TT) we would be in trouble. I'm not going to get into how healthy we need (percentages) him but he is a necessity if we want to go the distance. Marks and Burke def won't cut it

If we did sign Barbosa, I don't know what to think about the Diaw situation. It seems that the Suns have continually asked players the last couple years to take discounts and have repeatedly got spurrned. The nuggets completely screwed the market and now we are left with Diaw wanting that much money. It's gonna come down to either Marion or Diaw and I can't believe Sarver let it get to this......

Why is it that no one has mentioned the acquisition of Banks. I remember that the reason the suns couldnt keep a lead against Dallas and needed extra games to dispose of the lakers and clips is that Nash was having on and then off games due to fatigue. When Nash went to the bench fatigued, the leads evaporated with turnovers at the point. banks should help there as he takes good care of the ball. And the suns will be better defensively at guard as well. If Nash does not get run down in the regular season, and/or Banks is productive of the bench at the point, this team is much better. If Nash is not fatigued and we have KT for even 15 mins/game for defensive rebounding, instead of TT, is this a better team? I think some board members will be suprised to see what an energized Nash will do in the playoffs. If Amare can play 25 productive minutes a game, with his newly found deadly shot, the suns will be a favorite to reach the finals, and will be deeper on the front line(for fouls) than last year.

 

[Muggum]

Everyone continues to blame Amare's lack of explosiveness on 1) his lack of muscle strength, and 2) his mental blocks. Everyone continues to say that medically, the knee is 100 percent.

But I'm inclined to believe that it's the knee, and not the brain or the quad muscles, that's the problem. Many players who suffered through microfracture surgery never made it back at all. I'm supposed to buy it's because they were simply afraid? Or because their quadriceps weren't strong enough? Amare's the most fearless guy I've ever seen. And guys like Jamal Mashburn, Andre Wadsworth, Mark Smith, Zach Randolph, etc... are/were warriors. And stronger than oxes, too.

Bottom line, this surgery is still relatively experimental, and all evidence points to the fact that while it can 'fix' knees, it also can damage them in some real, lasting way.

Guys face mental blocks and muscle strength issues coming off all sorts of surgeries. But microfracture alone is associated with various destroyed careers. The only surgery I can compare it to, in terms of its severity and dubious results, is the Tommy John baseball elbow surgery.

I'm so bummed. That doctor (quack?) said Amare would be back 100 percent. We're over a year out now. And Amare just got cut from the USA team, with not-so-promising quotes coming from Colangelo and others about his status.

Ugh.

 

[JS22]

Everyone continues to blame Amare's lack of explosiveness on 1) his lack of muscle strength, and 2) his mental blocks. Everyone continues to say that medically, the knee is 100 percent.

But I'm inclined to believe that it's the knee, and not the brain or the quad muscles, that's the problem. Many players who suffered through microfracture surgery never made it back at all. I'm supposed to buy it's because they were simply afraid? Or because their quadriceps weren't strong enough? Amare's the most fearless guy I've ever seen. And guys like Jamal Mashburn, Andre Wadsworth, Mark Smith, Zach Randolph, etc... are/were warriors. And stronger than oxes, too.

Bottom line, this surgery is still relatively experimental, and all evidence points to the fact that while it can 'fix' knees, it also can damage them in some real, lasting way.

Guys face mental blocks and muscle strength issues coming off all sorts of surgeries. But microfracture alone is associated with various destroyed careers. The only surgery I can compare it to, in terms of its severity and dubious results, is the Tommy John baseball elbow surgery.

I'm so bummed. That doctor (quack?) said Amare would be back 100 percent. We're over a year out now. And Amare just got cut from the USA team, with not-so-promising quotes coming from Colangelo and others about his status.

Ugh.

Every single one of your posts is negative.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Chaplin]

Very glad that Amare officially isn't going to Japan. That's a lot of hours of not doing any rehabbing, between the long flights and the jet lag.

Not surprising, but glad it's official.

 

[Joe Mama]

although Marion's injury MIGHT have had something to do with that? Come on now Chap.

Again - I ask if anyone here actually thinks THIS Amare would have made the 15 if not for JC running the entire ship? JC knows how important Amare's ego is. He's the one who got Amare out of his funk during his rehab earlier this year. I truly believe Jerry loves the kid and wants Amare to be his lasting legacy.

Give me a break cheese. Like Andy said, he made the team by default. It probably didn't hurt that he is a 4/5 who can shoot the basketball.

as well as a tim thomas shot from losing in the first round or a kobe shot (end of regulation in game 6) from losing in the first round

How about the referees in Game 4 of the first round? Kurt Thomas might not have been missed as much in the Western Conference finals, but he's injury was huge in the first and second round. Like I said, they were lucky with the seeding because even at full strength not sure they could have gone to even Game 7 with San Antonio.

My plan was that the Phoenix Suns chances at a championship to not fall ENTIRELY on Amare Stoudemire's health. You could read Jill

 

[Muggum]

Yeah, I'm a sour grape. We've established this. What can I say, deal with me.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, I'm a sour grape. We've established this. What can I say, deal with me.

nice - so with Amare cut, I assume he's not gonna be in action in the game against Puerto Rice tonight? Good thing I cleared my calendar for that... oye!

 

[mribnik]

nice - so with Amare cut, I assume he's not gonna be in action in the game against Puerto Rice tonight? Good thing I cleared my calendar for that... oye!

I thought I also read in another thread that he is going to play tonight and it will be his last game. We'll see.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I thought I also read in another thread that he is going to play tonight and it will be his last game. We'll see.

crap - so now Im just gonna have to wait to see - oh well,hope he does and I hope I see any kind of glimmer there is to hang on to.

 

[mribnik]

crap - so now Im just gonna have to wait to see - oh well,hope he does and I hope I see any kind of glimmer there is to hang on to.

Actually it's from this thread, on page 5.

"Tonight's exhibition game against Puerto Rico, to be shown live on ESPN2 at 8, appears to be Stoudemire's final major test in his summer comeback program. It kicked into gear with his first five-on-five game five weeks ago and continued with lukewarm reviews at the Vegas Summer League and USA Basketball camp."