Team USA - Shawn and Amare

[Chaplin]

Seems to me like the opposite--D'Antoni is giving lessons to the other coaches on how International Basketball is played.

 

[nowagimp]

Seems to me like the opposite--D'Antoni is giving lessons to the other coaches on how International Basketball is played.

yup, I think thats right.

 

[Errntknght]

Seems to me like the opposite--D'Antoni is giving lessons to the other coaches on how International Basketball is played.

I agree with this but, hopefully, D'Antoni is learning something about pressing and trapping defenses. If you recall he tried using those maneuvers his first year with the Suns and they stunk.

As far as attacking FIBA type zones, you'd think he'd know how to do that but the Suns have not shown great prowess in attacking NBA zones so apparently the techniques he knows do not translate well. Of course, team USA will not be playing against NBA zones but maybe he'll learn something along that that line from the other coaches during discussions.

I'm not claiming these are major items for the Suns because their long range shooters make zoning them difficult and D'Antoni probably doesn't want to have the guys expending the energy on defense to press and trap a whole lot. Still there will probably be times when having them in the arsenal makes a difference in the outcome of games.

 

[Chaz]

I disagree about D'Antoni and zones.

I thought he made some excellent adjustments against NBA zones in the playoffs.

 

[nowagimp]

I disagree about D'Antoni and zones.

I thought he made some excellent adjustments against NBA zones in the playoffs.

I agree with you sirchaz. The suns are the top shooting team in the NBA, inside, outside, whatever. Teams that play zone against the suns are killed unless they just plain miss their open shots.

 

[Errntknght]

I already said that the Suns outside shooting makes them tough to zone but I'd be interested to know what adjustments you guys recall seeing the Suns make against the zones in the playoffs - particularly any that got them inside shots.

I expected to see Boris move to the middle against them and I didn't see that nor did I see attempts to pass to baseline cutters, which is very effective against zones.

 

[George O'Brien]

I already said that the Suns outside shooting makes them tough to zone but I'd be interested to know what adjustments you guys recall seeing the Suns make against the zones in the playoffs - particularly any that got them inside shots.

I expected to see Boris move to the middle against them and I didn't see that nor did I see attempts to pass to baseline cutters, which is very effective against zones.

Obviously there are zones and there are zone. Most zones leave a hole at the high post, which is why good mid range shooting and passing by the center is so important.

One aspect to the Suns using the press might be that it would be used primarily with their backups. Barbosa and Banks will probably play about 25 minutes each. It's more of a struggle to ask Bell and Marion to press, but it appears that the real energy is expended by the guards.

 

[nowagimp]

I already said that the Suns outside shooting makes them tough to zone but I'd be interested to know what adjustments you guys recall seeing the Suns make against the zones in the playoffs - particularly any that got them inside shots.

I expected to see Boris move to the middle against them and I didn't see that nor did I see attempts to pass to baseline cutters, which is very effective against zones.

The suns create spacing all over the floor, its the way the offense is designed. The problem with zones is that when they extend to the 3 pt line, the middle or the back door will be open. It would be even more effective if the suns had a low post offensive threat, but even with the current team, the suns can score alot of points in the paint if the D overextends. If the defense shuts the paint down, the 3 will be open. the suns just take what the defense gives. The teams that play the best D on the suns(spurs, pistons) do not play zone, they play man to man with help. These teams also have good shot blocking that is effective since the suns(w/out amare) dont have a low post threat, its always smaller players driving the lane for points in the paint.

The strategy that the suns use against a zone is to have rapid ball movement around the perimeter to make the defense work until someone is open, then the "best" shot is taken. Zone can be rough to play when you have the outside shooters and ball movement to make the defense move quickly in response to passing around the perimeter. This opens up the drive for penetrators, having defenders running at them in response to crisp ball movement. Ball movement speed on the perimeter can be hindered alot more effectively with a man to man help defense. The key would be to keep a man on Nash regardless and hinder passing lanes to and from him with other "tall" defenders. Thats easier said than done, but better done with a man-to-man help defense.

 

[nowagimp]

I already said that the Suns outside shooting makes them tough to zone but I'd be interested to know what adjustments you guys recall seeing the Suns make against the zones in the playoffs - particularly any that got them inside shots.

I expected to see Boris move to the middle against them and I didn't see that nor did I see attempts to pass to baseline cutters, which is very effective against zones.

If the suns arent making the outside shots, the cutters will not be open, and they were hot and cold in the playoffs. I remember the suns getting 48 points in the paint one game (in the playoffs) when the opponent(mavs?) chose to guard the 3 line aggressively.

The reasons that the suns were hot and cold:

1) Nash fatigue, when its showed it showed(10 missed 3's in a row)

2) Barbosa jitters, he got better as the playoffs progressed, but missed alot of open shots against the lakers.

3) JR, who shot JR? Or better, where did JR's shot go?

4) The House was NOT on fire, in any playoff game

5) Raja calf tear, couldnt make one three with that injury.

What adjustments could be made to a "packed in" defense? Cerrtainly not back door cutters.


Defenses adjust to injuries(or player dissappearances like JR) and the cost is lost spacing. The strategy wasnt the problem, the player personnel limitations were.

The morale: Zones work if you dont hit your outside shots, period.

 

[Errntknght]

Zones work if you dont hit your outside shots, period.

I certainly wouldn't claim that good outside shooting isn't effective but I've seen zones busted by inside passing as well, so I have to disagree with your absolute position. You don't see it often because teams don't try it.

 

[George O'Brien]

When attacking the zone, there is no substitute for good ball movement and that includes good shooting. Zones can be extended to stop shooters, but good ball movement is harder to counter.

At the same time, cold shooting is hard to overcome no matter what the opponent is doing.

 

[Joe Mama]

When attacking the zone, there is no substitute for good ball movement and that includes good shooting. Zones can be extended to stop shooters, but good ball movement is harder to counter.

At the same time, cold shooting is hard to overcome no matter what the opponent is doing.

Equally as important as moving the ball is moving without the ball, and I think that's the one thing the Phoenix Suns still don't do quite as well as they should. That's true regardless of whether the defense is playing man-to-man or zone. Get the ball to a long, distributor in the middle and work the baseline.

The Suns are pretty good at moving the ball around quickly. They aren't as good at moving without the ball.

Joe

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the problems we have in evaluating the Suns is that they have not had much continuity. Of guys who played much 2004-05, only Nash and and Marion returned. Amare was hurt and Barbosa did not play much in 2004-05. It was a massive roster turnover.

It takes a while for teams to play smoothly as a team. The Suns offensive stats improved over the course of the season and their defense imporved until KT went down. Playing together and for the same coach tends to help players react rather than have to think about what they need to do.

This year the Suns will have only one player in the rotation who has not played for the D'Antoni. It is my hope that this will mean training camp will be less focused on teaching the system and more on refinements.

Calling moving without the ball a "refinement" is a bit of a push, but in a sense it is. The primary focus of teaching offense is:

1. How to run the D'Antoni break
2. How to run the various forms of the pick and roll including spacing
3. How to spot the open man and get him the ball quickly in pass rotations when opponets switch
4. Determining when the opposition is sufficiently spread to fake the shot and take the ball to the basket and when to kick out

Adding Boris has created a whole new set of opportunities, but they had to incorporate the use of inside passing and cutters during the season. Also, if what we are reading about Amare is true, we should see a lot more passing on his part as well, which will make developing off the ball movement all the more important.

 

[Errntknght]

Calling moving without the ball a "refinement" is a bit of a push, but in a sense it is.

For the Suns, moving without the ball would be revolutionary. D'Antoni has never preached it and it doesn't come naturally to anyone but Marion - and he tends to look for open areas more than cutting lanes. I expected Bell to show quite a lot in this regard coming from a Jerry Sloan team but he is as pitiful as Barbosa. James Jones started showing a little inclination to move inside after his 3pt shooting evaporated but nothing that you would call cutting.

The best thing going for the Suns is that they will not have a frontcourt player who is not at least a fair mid-range shooter so the area right around the basket will be open frequently - and that should tempt the wings and guards to try cutting.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think there is a kind of philosophical tradeoff between cutting and spacing, even though there shouldn't be. In a free form offense like the Suns run, the risk is to have two guys cut toward the same open area, thus getting in each other's way.

In a sense, the pick and roll relies on a cutter who happens to be the pick man. When run properly, it creates a mismatch which forces someone to leave their man to help. This leaves the help defender's man open for a jump shot. The key is stay put and wait for Nash's pass.

Shifting to an offense that uses cutters is quite different, but makes a lot of sense when a great passer like Boris has the ball in low. It takes a while to get used to reading the defense and knowing when to cut and when not to. However, it is clearly something they need to put a lot more focus on.

 

[Nash]

http://www.nba.com/features/060822_usaslo_recap.html

"Second-Quarter Surge Lifts U.S. Past Slovenia

SAPPORO, Japan, Aug. 22 -- USA Basketball remain unbeaten, posting a 114-95 victory over Slovenia.
After trailing by five points in the first quarter, Team USA, which clinched a spot in the round of 16, went on an 11-0 run to take the lead for good.
USA Basketball outscored Slovenia 36-22 in the second quarter to take a 66-49 halftime lead and firmly take control of the game.
Dwyane Wade scored 20 points and LeBron James had 19 for USA Basketball, which forced 25 turnovers and handed out 21 assists.
Chris Paul did an excellent job directing the offensive attack for Team USA, giving out nine assists, and Elton Brand (16) and Carmelo Anthony (14) also scored in double digits.
Slovenia, which dropped to 1-2, was led by Sani Becirovic's 18 points and Primoz Brezec scored 15 and grabbed 12 rebounds.
Team USA will play two more preliminary round games in Group D.
Next up for the United States is a showdown with Italy, which is also 3-0, on Wednesday at 6:30 a.m. ET on ESPN2.
“We’re looking forward to playing Italy tomorrow," Anthony said. "We know it’s going to be a good game, a physical game. We are looking forward to playing them.”
"

LEADER BOARD
USA Slovenia Pts Wade 20 Becirovic 18
RebHinrich 7 Brezec 12
AstPaul 9 Three with 2


btw, for those of you who get FSN, they have reruns of the FIBA games at various times during teh day and night. Some of the games with the lesser known teams playing, are ugly as hell though.

 

[myrondizzo]

hinrich had 7 reb? our back up PG lead the team in reb.

 

[George O'Brien]

hinrich had 7 reb? our back up PG lead the team in reb.

D'Antoni probably talked Coach K to put him at center.

 

[Nash]

The darned schedule of the next round of FIBA championship.

www.truehoop.com

Friday, August 25
Argentina vs. New Zealand 9:00 PM ET Saturday, August 26
Italy vs. Lithuania 12:00 AM ET
Turkey vs. Slovenia 4:00 AM ET
Spain vs. Serbia and Montenegro 7:00 AM ET
Germany vs. Nigeria 9:00 PM ET
Sunday, August 27
United States vs. Australia 12:00 AM ET
France vs. Angola 4:00 AM ET
Greece vs. China 7:00 PM ET

 

[Nash]

I didn't catch the early morning game between Spain and Serbia today. Its on now on Fox Sports. Pretty good game..nexciting to watch. so far, Jose Calderon and Pau have been playing real well. The outside shooting is just so smooth..its poetry.

 

[Sunshooter]

I just watch Greece vs China.

Greece is another Phoenix Suns, nice fast break and passing, likely to win over France in qtr-final

 

[Amare32]

sadly so

shame as it would be nice to see Boris vs the US

 

[George O'Brien]

Greece won last year's Eurobasket I take them very seriously.

 

[cly2tw]

Diaw was invisible in their loss to Greek, aside from a span of 3 min.

 

[George O'Brien]

Diaw was invisible in their loss to Greek, aside from a span of 3 min.

Not worth $10 million?