That Kyler Murray kid

[ajcardfan]

Not trying to knock Kyler here, but great QBs don't need an ensemble to shine.

You are saying he had an ensemble this year and last?

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Not trying to knock Kyler here, but great QBs don't need an ensemble to shine.

Especially "generational talents."

 

[Brian in Mesa]

BIM: Cruz

Exactly.

No one is arguing that Kyler isn't the "bigger man" between these two...right?

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[PACardsFan]

I agree with the basic premise, but there are quite a few people who seem to be more concerned with being right on their initial analysis on Murray and take every possible shred of evidence to attack the kid.

Kyler Murray isn't one of the Cardinals problems. He could play better at times, but his shortfalls would be much smaller if the defense played better, or the running game was more effective, or the kicker didn't miss clutch kicks.

He is literally coming off of a top 3 Cardinals Quarterback season all time. I say this because he scored 37 TDs....that's easily right up there with Palmer and Warner.

And let's not forget that Palmer & Warner had far more offensive weapons around them & that they were far more experienced than a 2nd year kid who only played 1 season of college football. K1 is significantly better than Palmer could ever dream of being. If BA had Murray when he was here, we would have seen SB appearances.

 

[PACardsFan]

Especially "generational talents."

As a Cardinal fan for 57 years, I would definitely say that Murray's 1st two years were generational. He accounted for 37 TDS with 1 WR, a crappy interior OL, and an average starting RB. And a defense that for 2 years has allowed opposing teams to drive the length of the field & score directly after a Murray led scoring drive. Our D just kills whatever momentum our offense generates for much of the 2 years that Murray has been here.

 

[Solar7]

Last year great stats, team stunk. Can’t knock Kyler until he has a full ensemble.

Right, but that's one year. Watson was not afforded much better in his two playoff qualifying seasons than we were. His running game was subpar, their line wasn't very good... maybe a slightly better defense?

Listen, this isn't trying to knock Kyler, especially in a thread that is focused on him doing an objectively good thing. But it's okay for fans to express concerns about a player's football makeup without calling him a bad person. And I'm sorry, when you're the #1 overall pick, the expectation has to be that you lift the team without a "full ensemble." None of the top 5 QBs in this league are doing so with rosters jam packed of high priced free agents and solely first rounders at the skill positions.

 

[Solar7]

K1 is significantly better than Palmer could ever dream of being.

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard, given that Palmer was also a 1st overall pick. Unless you're only talking about over 34 year old Carson Palmer solely on the Cardinals, which is a wildly unfair comparison, but even that guy threw for 35 TDs in a season.

 

[slanidrac16]

Right, but that's one year. Watson was not afforded much better in his two playoff qualifying seasons than we were. His running game was subpar, their line wasn't very good... maybe a slightly better defense?

Listen, this isn't trying to knock Kyler, especially in a thread that is focused on him doing an objectively good thing. But it's okay for fans to express concerns about a player's football makeup without calling him a bad person. And I'm sorry, when you're the #1 overall pick, the expectation has to be that you lift the team without a "full ensemble." None of the top 5 QBs in this league are doing so with rosters jam packed of high priced free agents and solely first rounders at the skill positions.

Let me say I agree with the fact that Kyler has got to improve to reach the status of being the number 1 pick. I just want to give him the chance to develop. Remember he came as the number one pick not because we traded up but because we were the WORSE team in football.
He came in with fewer games at qb than most coming into this league. It also includes coming along with a rookie head coach which MANY believe should be gone.
I would say that Kyler has exceeded expectation with what he walked into. That’s not making excuses. It’s just my opinion.
I hope we add a center, a true #2 Wr and decide on what to do at rb. I believe experience alone will help him improve. To what degree? We will see.

 

[slanidrac16]

Not trying to knock Kyler here, but great QBs don't need an ensemble to shine.

I get that. Kyler has been great at times. Hopefully he will continue to improve.

 

[GuernseyCard]

As a Cardinal fan for 57 years, I would definitely say that Murray's 1st two years were generational. He accounted for 37 TDS with 1 WR, a crappy interior OL, and an average starting RB. And a defense that for 2 years has allowed opposing teams to drive the length of the field & score directly after a Murray led scoring drive. Our D just kills whatever momentum our offense generates for much of the 2 years that Murray has been here.

Our 'D' outplayed our "0' last season

Check the pts for pts against 2019/20.

 

[HGC]

Kyler is arguably saddled with the worst coach/GM in the league.

 

[slanidrac16]

Kyler is arguably saddled with the worst coach/GM in the league.

Many agree with you which adds to the argument of just how good Kyler has been, could be, or will be.

 

[cardpa]

And let's not forget that Palmer & Warner had far more offensive weapons around them & that they were far more experienced than a 2nd year kid who only played 1 season of college football. K1 is significantly better than Palmer could ever dream of being. If BA had Murray when he was here, we would have seen SB appearances.

If BA had Murray when he was here, Murray would have been laid up in a hospital somewhere. BA exposed his QBs so much Murray would have been crushed.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Kyler is arguably saddled with the worst coach/GM in the league.

Really!

Evidently you've done a deep study and can name the second, third, fourth, etc. worst Coach/GM combinations in the League, right?

 

[HGC]

Really!

Evidently you've done a deep study and can name the second, third, fourth, etc. worst Coach/GM combinations in the League, right?

We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[GuernseyCard]

We are all entitled to our opinions.

Sure. But an 'informed' opinion would be nice.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Right, but that's one year. Watson was not afforded much better in his two playoff qualifying seasons than we were. His running game was subpar, their line wasn't very good... maybe a slightly better defense?

Listen, this isn't trying to knock Kyler, especially in a thread that is focused on him doing an objectively good thing. But it's okay for fans to express concerns about a player's football makeup without calling him a bad person. And I'm sorry, when you're the #1 overall pick, the expectation has to be that you lift the team without a "full ensemble." None of the top 5 QBs in this league are doing so with rosters jam packed of high priced free agents and solely first rounders at the skill positions.

Eh the top teams even with great QBs have talent.
Rodgers has a better oline and punishing ground game with Davante

Brady had the best weapons around

mahomes has quite a group of weapons

even Brees had more weapons than kyler, and that saints team wasn’t Uber talented.

let’s be honest, kyler had hop and just about nothing else that scared anyone. Our next most “dangerous” weapons were Arnold and drake?

 

[HGC]

Sure. But an 'informed' opinion would be nice.

Kingsbury’s overall record is 48-58-1 (13-18-1 with the Cardinals) and Steve Keim has gone 16-31-1 since Bruce Arians left the building. You obviously disagree with my opinion.

 

[Solar7]

Let me say I agree with the fact that Kyler has got to improve to reach the status of being the number 1 pick. I just want to give him the chance to develop. Remember he came as the number one pick not because we traded up but because we were the WORSE team in football.
He came in with fewer games at qb than most coming into this league. It also includes coming along with a rookie head coach which MANY believe should be gone.
I would say that Kyler has exceeded expectation with what he walked into. That’s not making excuses. It’s just my opinion.
I hope we add a center, a true #2 Wr and decide on what to do at rb. I believe experience alone will help him improve. To what degree? We will see.

All of that is fair. But it doesn't absolve him from criticism. There are some here who will get angry if we dare question Kyler whatsoever about anything. I know I've been told to go be a fan of another team multiple times because I'm not completely certain Kyler's destined to be a top 5 QB.

Eh the top teams even with great QBs have talent.
Rodgers has a better oline and punishing ground game with Davante

Brady had the best weapons around

mahomes has quite a group of weapons

even Brees had more weapons than kyler, and that saints team wasn’t Uber talented.

let’s be honest, kyler had hop and just about nothing else that scared anyone. Our next most “dangerous” weapons were Arnold and drake?

They have talent, but to me, it's more about how that talent was acquired.

Who is Rodgers throwing to? Did he get a 1st round WR for multiple years because he needed that to succeed? Did the Packers go out and pay a lot of money for a top flight free agent to make him successful? No. The notable skill players he has around him are mostly all drafted and home grown, all past the 1st round. Davante Adams a 2nd round pick, his next two WRs in the 5th and 6th, Aaron Jones in the 5th, Tonyan undrafted by another team.

Brady's a little different, but homegrown WRs in Evans and Godwin (3rd round), Ronald Jones (2nd round)... sure, there's Gronk, AB, and Fournette, but all of them are essentially scrap heap players that multiple teams had a shot at on cheap contracts (Gronk being the exception only playing with Brady).

Mahomes' best weapons were drafted after the 3rd round. Kelce (3rd round), Hill (5th round).

Brees is also getting it done with guys who weren't heralded players and were home grown. Michael Thomas (2nd round), Alvin Kamara (3rd round).

The reason I bring this up is that lots of posters here say we must provide Kyler with another 1st round pick at WR, or TE, or upgrade at running back, and spend more and more money just to get the offense up to snuff. These top QBs aren't sitting around with key weapons that were purchased on the free agent market, by giving up a ton of trade capital, or burning a 1st round pick on a position where they already have another star.

That's what puts a little fear in me about Kyler. Is he really making anyone around him that much better? Sure, he balls out when he runs, but it doesn't seem like he takes the rest of the offense with him. That could easily be Kliff's fault.

 

[Krangodnzr]

All of that is fair. But it doesn't absolve him from criticism. There are some here who will get angry if we dare question Kyler whatsoever about anything. I know I've been told to go be a fan of another team multiple times because I'm not completely certain Kyler's destined to be a top 5 QB.


They have talent, but to me, it's more about how that talent was acquired.

Who is Rodgers throwing to? Did he get a 1st round WR for multiple years because he needed that to succeed? Did the Packers go out and pay a lot of money for a top flight free agent to make him successful? No. The notable skill players he has around him are mostly all drafted and home grown, all past the 1st round. Davante Adams a 2nd round pick, his next two WRs in the 5th and 6th, Aaron Jones in the 5th, Tonyan undrafted by another team.

Brady's a little different, but homegrown WRs in Evans and Godwin (3rd round), Ronald Jones (2nd round)... sure, there's Gronk, AB, and Fournette, but all of them are essentially scrap heap players that multiple teams had a shot at on cheap contracts (Gronk being the exception only playing with Brady).

Mahomes' best weapons were drafted after the 3rd round. Kelce (3rd round), Hill (5th round).

Brees is also getting it done with guys who weren't heralded players and were home grown. Michael Thomas (2nd round), Alvin Kamara (3rd round).

The reason I bring this up is that lots of posters here say we must provide Kyler with another 1st round pick at WR, or TE, or upgrade at running back, and spend more and more money just to get the offense up to snuff. These top QBs aren't sitting around with key weapons that were purchased on the free agent market, by giving up a ton of trade capital, or burning a 1st round pick on a position where they already have another star.

That's what puts a little fear in me about Kyler. Is he really making anyone around him that much better? Sure, he balls out when he runs, but it doesn't seem like he takes the rest of the offense with him. That could easily be Kliff's fault.

Wow. So much wrong with what you say here. Wow.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Franchise single season rankings in like 110 years (at least 100 attempts)

Completion Percentage #1
Passing Yards #6
Total Yards #1
Passing TDs #7
Total TDs #1
Ints: 58 (low is good)
QBR #2

Like forky, trash

 

[Solar7]

Wow. So much wrong with what you say here. Wow.

Care to elaborate? I'm not saying that the QBs listed don't play with some incredible talent, but that talent wasn't brought aboard with the use of high picks or gaudy contracts. All of those QBs make the people around them better.

 

[Solar7]

Franchise single season rankings in like 110 years (at least 100 attempts)

Completion Percentage #1
Passing Yards #6
Total Yards #1
Passing TDs #7
Total TDs #1
Ints: 58 (low is good)
QBR #2

Like forky, trash

You can't move the goalposts just because our QB play has been so terrible for so long. Jameis Winston's 5 seasons with the Bucs would have basically held all of our franchise records.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Care to elaborate? I'm not saying that the QBs listed don't play with some incredible talent, but that talent wasn't brought aboard with the use of high picks or gaudy contracts. All of those QBs make the people around them better.

I will when I'm on an actual keyboard.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You can't move the goalposts just because our QB play has been so terrible for so long. Jameis Winston's 5 seasons with the Bucs would have basically held all of our franchise records.

And Winston has a season where he threw more picks than Murray has in TWO SEASONS.